The A & P

[Saint Steven]

Romans 11:32, this is the most ridiculous one of all.

Begin reading in 11:25 to see the context that leads up vs 32.

The context of the chapter is Israel in contrast to the Gentiles.

God has concluded them all (Israel and the Gentiles) in unbelief.

You see Steven, Paul is explaining here in vs. 30 that the Gentile nations have rreceived mercy from God through the unbelief of Israel. They have all been concluded in unbelief but now salvation has come to us the Gentiles through the rejection of Christ by Israel.

"mercy upon all" is referring to the world in respect to contrast between Israel and the Gentile nations.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with universal restoration.

There are only two kinds of people in reference to Jews and gentiles. That covers everyone. You are either a Jew, or you are a gentile. So, the "all" really is all. Most definitely universal restoration. Let's look at the next one. Thanks.

 

[Der Alte]

***

There are only two kinds of people in reference to Jews and gentiles. That covers everyone. You are either a Jew, or you are a gentile. So, the "all" really is all. Most definitely universal restoration. Let's look at the next one. Thanks.

Another example of selective out-of-context proof text quoting. This is a ploy all heterodox religious groups use trying to support their false doctrines.

Romans 11:32
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.​

Yes the Greek word for all occurs twice in this verse #1, "concluded them all in unbelief" #2 "that he might have mercy upon all"
But the mood of the verb determines the exact meaning.
The verb translated "has concluded" is an aorist, active , indicative. The indicative mood means the "action really occurs or has occurred or will occur,"
The verb ελεηση translated "might have mercy" is an aorist, active, subjunctive. The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and
potentiality. The action described may or may not occur,
If Paul had intended to say "God shall have mercy on all" he would have written the verb ηλεηθην in the indicative mood as he did in 1 Timothy 1:13

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Where is a single person who rejects Christ in the bible who has eternal life ?

He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, acquainted with grief. Like one from whom men hide their faces, He was despised, and we esteemed Him not. (Isa 53:3)

He was in the world, and though the world was made through Him, the world did not recognize Him. He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. (Jn 1:10-11)

Kind of the point of the Christian Bible. Y'know the one where everyone rejects the Messiah and then they repent...

And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself. (Jn 12:32)

Now that's a great prediction. You say he's WRONG? And do you deny God Himself when He swears the Koreshic Oath witnessed TWICE in the NT?...

I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. (Isa 45:23, Rom 14:11, Phil 2:10)

From your earlier comment condemning the unworthy, I surmise you're rejecting these great truths simply because they offend your sensibilities, like the big brother whingeing about the prodigal or the vineyard worker who's toiled all day just to see the latecomers get paid the same wage?

The last will be first and first will be last.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Please show me one verse, 2 or more would be better, where God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself says that the dead in the grave/hell will repent and be saved?

And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. (Jn 11:43)

Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached. (Lk 7:22)

Like shooting fish in barrel with your objections der Alter.

Jesus delights in raising the dead. It's in the mission statement. And those with new life in Christ are filled with gratitude and awe. Now is that not a recipe for repentance?

Next?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

The action described may or may not occur,
If Paul had intended to say "God shall have mercy on all" he would have written the verb ηλεηθην in the indicative mood as he did in 1 Timothy 1:13

So God is moody and arbitrary now? Not in the Bible I'm reading.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

They get these verses from the handy Ur-ite manual.

Yes, it's called the Bible, Charlie. (You might have heard of it?)

 

[Charlie24]

Yes, it's called the Bible, Charlie. (You might have heard of it?)

I've heard of it but we're not reading the same one!

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, acquainted with grief. Like one from whom men hide their faces, He was despised, and we esteemed Him not. (Isa 53:3)

He was in the world, and though the world was made through Him, the world did not recognize Him. He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. (Jn 1:10-11)

Kind of the point of the Christian Bible. Y'know the one where everyone rejects the Messiah and then they repent...

.

Who are you talking about rejecting the Messiah ?

a- the disciples
b- the Jews
c- the world ?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I've heard of it but we're not reading the same one!

Maybe we're just using different eyes. I live in hope Charlie.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Who are you talking about rejecting the Messiah ?

a- the disciples
b- the Jews
c- the world ?

All of the above. The disciples all take off (except John), Peter denies Jesus...Jesus forgives him.

The Jews, well many of them started to realise that he died in accordance with scripture, as per Isa 53 - 'Oh no we've killed the prince of peace, better repent in sackcloth and ashes'.

The world, well Christendom. Jesus is constantly warning the Jews that God's going to take it to the world.

So the trickle of water that starts with Abraham grows into a torrential river that eventually cascades into the Dead Sea, giving life to all things. That's the Biblical narrative and God's plan, in a nutshell. Don't see it?

 

[Charlie24]

Maybe we're just using different eyes. I live in hope Charlie.

I know that your intentions are for good, but they are not biblical.

All of the above. The disciples all take off (except John), Peter denies Jesus...Jesus forgives him.

The Jews, well many of them started to realise that he died in accordance with scripture, as per Isa 53 - 'Oh no we've killed the prince of peace, better repent in sackcloth and ashes'.

The world, well Christendom. Jesus is constantly warning the Jews that God's going to take it to the world.

So the trickle of water that starts with Abraham grows into a torrential river that eventually cascades into the Dead Sea, giving life to all things. That's the Biblical narrative and God's plan, in a nutshell. Don't see it?

In revelation during the great tribulation God is raining down fire and brimstone on the ungodly and would relent if they only repented. They rather chose to curse God and die.

The UR says they will make it to heaven, the scripture says they were cast into the lake of fire. No where in scripture do we have a hint that hell releases its condemned.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I know that your intentions are for good, but they are not

Oh, ok. Lol, I hope you just didn't finish your sentence there my friend!

In revelation during the great tribulation God is raining down fire and brimstone on the ungodly and would relent if they only repented. They rather chose to curse God and die.

True, the tribulation brings many to God in repentance, but some stubborn tough nuts remain refuseniks unto death.

The UR says they will make it to heaven, the scripture says they were cast into the lake of fire. No where in scripture do we have a hint that hell releases its condemned.

No that's where we part ways. See, Jesus has the keys to death and hades. And he uses them. That means he SAVES the dead and despairing souls. Because Jesus is Salvation. Why would he change his M.O.?

The Lake of Fire is where they go to overcome their stubborn love of sin, and have it burned out of them. None of us can fully purify ourselves in Christ during this lifetime, we need to buy gold refined in the fire from Jesus, and in fact everyone will be salted with fire and salt is good.

So the LoF is the big divine treatment plant for separating and destroying the ingrained sin and delivering the new man in Christ. That's why the nations emerge after the fire to worship God (Rev 21:24-26) and receive healing (Rev 22:2)

The sinners stay outside Heaven until they get a bath in the Lamb's blood, but are given all the encouragement - wash those robes and come get the free gift of the water of life, the party's inside, the Pearly Gates stand open.

God will be victorious, every knee and every tongue.

 

[Charlie24]

Oh, ok. Lol, I hope you just didn't finish your sentence there my friend!



True, the tribulation brings many to God in repentance, but some stubborn tough nuts remain refuseniks unto death.



No that's where we part ways. See, Jesus has the keys to death and hades. And he uses them. That means he SAVES the dead and despairing souls. Because Jesus is Salvation. Why would he change his M.O.?

The Lake of Fire is where they go to overcome their stubborn love of sin, and have it burned out of them. None of us can fully purify ourselves in Christ during this lifetime, we need to buy gold refined in the fire from Jesus, and in fact everyone will be salted with fire and salt is good.

So the LoF is the big divine treatment plant for separating and destroying the ingrained sin and delivering the new man in Christ. That's why the nations emerge after the fire to worship God (Rev 21:24-26) and receive healing (Rev 22:2)

The sinners stay outside Heaven until they get a bath in the Lamb's blood, but are given all the encouragement - wash those robes and come get the free gift of the water of life, the party's inside, the Pearly Gates stand open.

God will be victorious, every knee and every tongue.

Your good intentions have taken over and departed from the Word of God.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Who are you talking about rejecting the Messiah ?

a- the disciples
b- the Jews
c- the world ?

By the way brother, I hope you can forgive me for accusing you of dishonesty yesterday. It was unnecessary and unfair. The cares of the world have been getting me down lately.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Your good intentions have taken over and departed from the Word of God.

So what part of the summary I just set down was un-scriptural, in particular?

 

[Charlie24]

So what part of the summary I just set down was un-scriptural, in particular?

Jesus is salvation, just as you said. He is the same Jesus who said, You hypocrites and snakes, how shall you enter the Kingdom of God.

He also said, Narrow is the way to life and few there be that find it.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

All of the above. The disciples all take off (except John), Peter denies Jesus...Jesus forgives him.

The Jews, well many of them started to realise that he died in accordance with scripture, as per Isa 53 - 'Oh no we've killed the prince of peace, better repent in sackcloth and ashes'.

The world, well Christendom. Jesus is constantly warning the Jews that God's going to take it to the world.

So the trickle of water that starts with Abraham grows into a torrential river that eventually cascades into the Dead Sea, giving life to all things. That's the Biblical narrative and God's plan, in a nutshell. Don't see it?

the disciples were saved

John 15
“If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. 20 Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also.

John 17
“I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.



and the other 2 groups were not saved, the Jews and the Gentiles.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

By the way brother, I hope you can forgive me for accusing you of dishonesty yesterday. It was unnecessary and unfair. The cares of the world have been getting me down lately.

no problem !

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Jesus is salvation, just as you said. He is the same Jesus who said, You hypocrites and snakes, how shall you enter the Kingdom of God.

He also said, Narrow is the way to life and few there be that find it.

He surely did, and they are grave warnings. But he is not therefore saying that God will destroy body and soul in hell. I'd suggest that's a big leap.

Certainly, it's not going to be pleasant for these pharisee types to have their pride and arrogant sense of superiority shattered. That's the humiliation which is experienced as 'fire'. I think we've all had those experiences to some extent, being brought down a notch, humbled and knocked off our pedestals as it were.

That's the process that person who's lived a life of stubborn self-righteousness and hypocrisy will have to go through, in order to be reconciled to God, to the truth. That's what the lake of fire is all about, the sinner being delivered from the false notions he clings to stubbornly.

Only when those bad habits and false ways are overcome can the carcass of the old man be left aside in everlasting contempt, and the new humble and grateful man come forth.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

and the other 2 groups were not saved, the Jews and the Gentiles.

How so? Historically many Jews converted. And the Roman at the foot of the cross was converted. Ultimately, we're bound for Revelation 15:4, the new song of Moses ad the Lamb:

"Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy; For ALL THE NATIONS WILL COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE YOU, FOR YOUR RIGHTEOUS ACTS HAVE BEEN REVEALED."

Now, this is THE revelation of Revelation. That God's judgments save, and consummate the great covenant promises of the OT (esp. to Abraham and Cyrus), and the mission of Jesus to save the world from its condemnation by the wages of sin.

How is it consistent with these great Biblical pillars of love faith and hope that the many end up doomed to eternal torment?