The A & P

[Saint Steven]

Where does the bible say no one wants to go to hell ?

That's a ridiculous question. Let's turn it around.
Where does the bible say anyone wants to go to hell?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I'd have to confess to feeling like such a fake heel and phony imbecile if I wasn't prepared to give God's great universalistic promises to Abraham and Cyrus full value, or to the wonderful consummation of those promises in Revelation.

Think I'd just kill myself in utter despair if I believed Jesus was basically a failure and was only able to save a remnant of 'special ppl', while the rest were either ground to dust or slow-cooked forever. Honestly I would have to consider myself just a half-baked watered-down excuse for a believer in a worthless artificial crock of a fantasy religion.

So thank God we do indeed have a God who makes absolute promises of salvation of all and has the conviction and power to deliver on them. So we can be raised up in the hope that all will be saved, the spirit of grace and mercy poured out upon all, and especially those most in need.

 

[Saint Steven]

Where does the bible say everyone gets an opportunity to choose Jesus ?

I'm sure you have been told or taught that but where is that in the bible ?

Now I understand what you were asking for. Here it is below.
Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection)

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

 

[Charlie24]

I'd have to confess to feeling like such a fake heel and phony imbecile if I wasn't prepared to give God's great universalistic promises to Abraham and Cyrus full value, or to the wonderful consummation of those promises in Revelation.

Think I'd just kill myself in utter despair if I believed Jesus was basically a failure and was only able to save a remnant of 'special ppl', while the rest were either ground to dust or slow-cooked forever. Honestly I would have to consider myself just a half-baked watered-down excuse for a believer in a worthless artificial crock of a fantasy religion.

So thank God we do indeed have a God who makes absolute promises of salvation of all and has the conviction and power to deliver on them. So we can be raised up in the hope that all will be saved, the spirit of grace and mercy poured out upon all, and especially those most in need.

A handful of clay telling the potter what is acceptable and what's not!

SM, if you find out one day that no one will return from hell, will you refuse to dwell for eternity with that awful person Christ.

 

[Saint Steven]

A handful of clay telling the potter what is acceptable and what's not!

SM, if you find out one day that no one will return from hell, will you refuse to dwell for eternity with that awful person Christ.

"This post is a prime example of what I have been explaining."

So you maintain that God is a cosmic tyrant with a total lack of self-control, or compassion? (angry volcano god) The God that commands that we love our enemies, but will mercilessly torture his own enemies for all eternity? Which you consider justice? Including the countless billions that have never so much as heard the name of Jesus? Will you spend eternity giving no conscious thought to the countless billions being BBQed in the basement? Will there be anyone there whom you know personally?

 

[Charlie24]

"This post is a prime example of what I have been explaining."

So you maintain that God is a cosmic tyrant with a total lack of self-control, or compassion? (angry volcano god) The God that commands that we love our enemies, but will mercilessly torture his own enemies for all eternity? Which you consider justice? Including the countless billions that have never so much as heard the name of Jesus? Will you spend eternity giving no conscious thought to the countless billions being BBQed in the basement? Will there be anyone there whom you know personally?

The UR constantly takes scripture out of context to prove what is not there. It's no surprise to me that they would take my words out of context also.

 

[Saint Steven]

The UR constantly takes scripture out of context to prove what is not there. It's no surprise to me that they would take my words out of context also.

The claim of "out of context" is a smoke screen.
Any self-standing single verse on its own is taken out of its context.

Those who claim a verse doesn't mean what it clearly says, will open up the context wide enough to find some reason to disagree with it. Try this on for size. (see below)

Four times the comparison is made of the condemnation that came to all through Adam and the righteous justification that came to all humankind through the finished work of Christ. Hopefully there is enough context to get the picture here. (what you call a damnable heresy)

Romans 5:15-19
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

 

[Charlie24]

The claim of "out of context" is a smoke screen.
Any self-standing single verse on its own is taken out of its context.

Those who claim a verse doesn't mean what it clearly says, will open up the context wide enough to find some reason to disagree with it. Try this on for size. (see below)

Four times the comparison is made of the condemnation that came to all through Adam and the righteous justification that came to all humankind through the finished work of Christ. Hopefully there is enough context to get the picture here. (what you call a damnable heresy)

Romans 5:15-19
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Where have I seen this before? Someone accusing another of what they are guilty of.

 

[Saint Steven]

Where have I seen this before? Someone accusing another of what they are guilty of.

Well, that's the point really.
Damnationists accuse Universalists of picking verses out-of-context (as if that is a crime) and then do the same thing themselves.

Does the context of Romans 5:17 change the meaning you would like to apply to it? (yes)

Romans 5:17
For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

Romans 5:15-19
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

 

[Charlie24]

Well, that's the point really.
Damnationists accuse Universalists of picking verses out-of-context (as if that is a crime) and then do the same thing themselves.

Does the context of Romans 5:17 change the meaning you would like to apply to it? (yes)

Romans 5:17
For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

Romans 5:15-19
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Steven let's go back to Post#254, your so-called list of universal restoration.

Let's begin with the first verse on the list, 1John 2:2,

"And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

"propitiation" means satisfaction. Jesus is the satisfaction "for our sins, but not for ours only..."

Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, not for just those who accept Him. This means that the satisfaction for the sin is as wide as the sin itself.

In no way does it mean that because Jesus died for the sins of the whole world that all sin will be forgiven and everyone is restored to God.

There must be repentance in order for sin to be forgiven and for man to enter heaven.

The price has been paid by Christ for the whole world but one must repent in order to benefit from it. Jesus plainly said, "if you don't repent you shall die in your sins." In other words, if you don't repent by the time of death, it's over.

This verse has nothing whatsoever to do with universal restoration!

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Now I understand what you were asking for. Here it is below.
Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection)

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.




Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

That is not declaring an opportunity for salvation in Phil 2 but that everyone regardless of where they are will agree Jesus is Lord(YHWH). That is not true now but in heaven it will be and in the future in the new heavens and new earth.

You are reading your universalism heresy into the passage.

Now if you want to make it all humankind that ever lived in that passage then when Jesus at the Judgment separates the goats from the sheep they(the goats) will say Lord Lord and Jesus will say depart from Me you workers of iniquity to the place prepared for the devil and his angels.

Either way its not universalism not matter how you try and say it is.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Saint Steven]

Steven let's go back to Post#254, your so-called list of universal restoration.

Let's begin with the first verse on the list, 1John 2:2,

"And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

"propitiation" means satisfaction. Jesus is the satisfaction "for our sins, but not for ours only..."

Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, not for just those who accept Him. This means that the satisfaction for the sin is as wide as the sin itself.

In no way does it mean that because Jesus died for the sins of the whole world that all sin will be forgiven and everyone is restored to God.

There must be repentance in order for sin to be forgiven and for man to enter heaven.

The price has been paid by Christ for the whole world but one must repent in order to benefit from it. Jesus plainly said, "if you don't repent you shall die in your sins." In other words, if you don't repent by the time of death, it's over.

This verse has nothing whatsoever to do with universal restoration!

By your own admission, Jesus is the satisfaction of the sins for the whole world.
That sure sounds like universal restoration to me. The whole world was under condemnation.

Let's go to the next verse in the list. Thanks.

 

[Saint Steven]

That is not declaring an opportunity for salvation in Phil 2 but that everyone regardless of where they are will agree Jesus is Lord(YHWH). That is not true now but in heaven it will be and in the future in the new heavens and new earth.

You asked where it was in the Bible and I provided it. I can't help it if you disagree based on your view of the final judgment.

Jesus is YHWH said: ↑
Where does the bible say everyone gets an opportunity to choose Jesus ?

I'm sure you have been told or taught that but where is that in the bible ?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

You asked where it was in the Bible and I provided it. I can't help it if you disagree based on your view of the final judgment.

Jesus is YHWH said: ↑
Where does the bible say everyone gets an opportunity to choose Jesus ?

I'm sure you have been told or taught that but where is that in the bible ?

phil 2 in not choosing its confessing something they know is true.

huge difference as its not a salvation passage/offer but an early confession of the church.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

A handful of clay telling the potter what is acceptable and what's not!

SM, if you find out one day that no one will return from hell, will you refuse to dwell for eternity with that awful person Christ.

That's what I'm talking about Charlie. When God Himself swears an OATH BY HIMSELF, we should pay close attention. Because it doesn't get any more real than that.

And God sware by Himself to Abraham, that ALL Nations of the world would be blessed through him, and God sware by Himself to Cyrus that ALL the ends of the earth would turn to Him and be saved, EVERY knee bowing and tongue confessing to the glory of God.

Now why would you not give those glorious holy beautiful perfect absolute sovereign and mighty promises their full value? C'mon Charlie cast the money changers from the temple. Why won't you take God at His word on these matters? He SWORE AN OATH both times. Don't you believe?

 

[Saint Steven]

phil 2 in not choosing its confessing something they know is true.

huge difference as its not a salvation passage/offer but an early confession of the church.

It has universal application referring even to those under the earth in the realm of the dead.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

It has universal application referring even to those under the earth in the realm of the dead.

is that not the place where abraham's bosom was in paradise ?

 

[Saint Steven]

is that not the place where abraham's bosom was in paradise ?

That and the great chasm.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

That and the great chasm.

which agrees with my POV and lines up with scripture not universalism.

Thanks !

 

[Charlie24]

By your own admission, Jesus is the satisfaction of the sins for the whole world.
That sure sounds like universal restoration to me. The whole world was under condemnation.

Let's go to the next verse in the list. Thanks.

Romans 11:32, this is the most ridiculous one of all.

Begin reading in 11:25 to see the context that leads up vs 32.

The context of the chapter is Israel in contrast to the Gentiles.

God has concluded them all (Israel and the Gentiles) in unbelief.

You see Steven, Paul is explaining here in vs. 30 that the Gentile nations have rreceived mercy from God through the unbelief of Israel. They have all been concluded in unbelief but now salvation has come to us the Gentiles through the rejection of Christ by Israel.

"mercy upon all" is referring to the world in respect to contrast between Israel and the Gentile nations.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with universal restoration.