The 7 a.m. 6 pack

[Hammster]

Forgive me, but I don't think BlessEwe said her testimony was the gospel. In defense of testimony, the apostle Paul on several occasions gave his testimony. One very good one is in 2 Corinthians 12, where he described a "thorn in the flesh" that he couldn't get over. The Lord told him that grace would be enough for him; he didn't need the thorn taken away. Because that very thorn was what kept him humble (and I might add, therefore useful to us by writing the letters he did.) Just a thought. Let the gospel be the gospel, and let testimony be testimony. There is a place for both. Paul said.

And that is all well and good. But if I tell you what God has done for me, and it doesn't happen the same way to you, then you may think that God doesn't love you in the same way. God is good no matter how things turn out. That is why I prefer to present the gospel (the death, burial and ressurrection of Jesus) than to present my life. It's His story, not mine. I am not saying, however, that if somebody gives testimony that it is wrong. But my testimony isn't what will save a person.

 

[Hammster]

I guess the thing I am most confused about is that I posted on here, and didn't say anything about what anybody else was saying. I just presented advice that I thought would be helpful, and what I thought was the truth. Then the criticism started. And what was this advice? Go to the cross. But I tried to respond to the criticisms, and then get criticized for that. So, I am sorry that you all don't like my advice, but I am unapologetic about it. But the Gospel is sufficient. The Cross is sufficient. The church (when it is a real church) is sufficient. And if you disagree, then so be it.

 

[madison1101]

I guess the thing I am most confused about is that I posted on here, and didn't say anything about what anybody else was saying. I just presented advice that I thought would be helpful, and what I thought was the truth. Then the criticism started. And what was this advice? Go to the cross. But I tried to respond to the criticisms, and then get criticized for that. So, I am sorry that you all don't like my advice, but I am unapologetic about it. But the Gospel is sufficient. The Cross is sufficient. The church (when it is a real church) is sufficient. And if you disagree, then so be it.

Alcoholism is a disease, and must be treated as such. Would you tell someone with diabetes to just go to the cross? I hope not. The Gospel is sufficient for salvation. The Church is sufficient for fellowship and teaching of the Gospel. But, for diseases, I recommend solutions that include other things, or a person will die. That is why I recommend professional counseling, rehabs, and AA. That is where a person with the disease of alcoholism will get the treatment they need for it.

 

[Hupomone10]

And that is all well and good. But if I tell you what God has done for me, and it doesn't happen the same way to you, then you may think that God doesn't love you in the same way. /QUOTE]

True. Bill Wilson learned this early on when after achieving sobriety partly through a dynamic spiritual experience he began telling people about that experience and he wasn't getting anyone sober. He was counseled by (Silkworth, I believe) to stop doing that and tell them about the truths that got him here, and the process, that were behind the experience, not the experience.

That is why I prefer to present the gospel (the death, burial and ressurrection of Jesus) than to present my life... But my testimony isn't what will save a person.

Thanks for clarifying that you were in previous posts talking about salvation. That helps. Salvation, I think you would agree, is different from discipleship; and has to be confronted differently. Please share from your perspective, how the death burial and resurrection of Christ apply to someone caught in the throes of alcoholism, and especially how it applies to someone ALREADY saved, who has already come to the cross and subsequently been caught in the snare of alcoholism. Because I think that's the issue here.

There are many who, when coming off alcohol, BECAUSE of the alcohol, have to clear their head and let it normalize for a while before they can even integrate what's being shared into their lives. My own sponsor who was very level headed when I met him, shared that this was the case with him. It takes time to normalize; then you can absorb the teaching. This is one of the most valuable things about the meetings; they present an environment where this can happen while presenting some of the truths essential to recovery. One of the first truths an alcoholic MUST adopt is the fact that they are powerless over alcoholism. That must come first, or the cross doesn't make much sense. It's like a person who's not convinced they're a sinner trying to see the meaning of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. To embrace a "Savior", you must realize you're lost.

 

[Hupomone10]

I guess the thing I am most confused about is that I posted on here, and didn't say anything about what anybody else was saying. I just presented advice that I thought would be helpful, and what I thought was the truth. Then the criticism started.

I know how it feels to "cast your pearls" and find them seemingly "trampled under foot" and the people seemingly "turn and tear you to pieces." That's how I felt on some of the threads on theology and ethics. But I do believe those I've read here are concerned mainly that effective advice be given; and that often times does include testimonies; because what you've gone through in your own deliverance from alcohol CAN be beneficial to others. Also, if it seems to be attacked, it's because this is a life and death issue. People need to be saved; but beyond that, if we continue to emphasize only the beginning truths as though that will take one on to maturity, it might not help. Does that make sense?

 

[sk8Joyful]

I just presented advice that I thought would be helpful, and what I thought was the truth.
And what was this advice?
I am sorry that you all don't like my advice, but I am unapologetic about it. But the Gospel is sufficient. The Cross is sufficient. The church (when it is a real church) is sufficient. And if you disagree, then so be it.

Hi Hammster,
You're sincerely wanting to help. How great is this!

Mind you, I'm a Christian, worked in medicine for 30 yrs; plus have loved helping people heal... I love it!

Please, while I do think AA. is not the magic-bullet,
even less generally does the church-route work, for too many people. - Why?
because (after being by God soul-saved), such a person needs emotional-guidance... to heal.

As people benefit from that, they're vastly different, more like perpetually re-newed!
.

 

[Hammster]

Thanks for clarifying that you were in previous posts talking about salvation. That helps. Salvation, I think you would agree, is different from discipleship; and has to be confronted differently. Please share from your perspective, how the death burial and resurrection of Christ apply to someone caught in the throes of alcoholism, and especially how it applies to someone ALREADY saved, who has already come to the cross and subsequently been caught in the snare of alcoholism. Because I think that's the issue here.

I am not talking about just salvation. The Gospel is much more powerful than that. Go read Paul. He said that he preached Christ and Him crucified. Yet he give advice and direction and rebuking and exortation all through his epistiles. But he was Christ-centered and cross-centered in his approach.

So like I said...alcholol abuse is a sin problem. And the only way to deal with sin is the cross. Whether it be alcohol, food, lying, sex, or whatever. In the case of alcholol abuse, usually the reason the person drinks is because of some other issues. It is those issues that need to be addressed. If someone has a true medical condtion, why send them to AA? That seems to be the most common advice. Yet, I say God has provided the church. And got pragmatic responses as to why AA is better.

 

[Hammster]

Hi Hammster,
You're sincerely wanting to help. How great is this!

Mind you, I'm a Christian, worked in medicine for 30 yrs; plus have loved helping people heal... I love it!

Please, while I do think AA. is not the magic-bullet,
even less generally does the church-route work, for too many people. - Why?
because (after being by God soul-saved), such a person needs emotional-guidance... to heal.

As people benefit from that, they're vastly different, more like perpetually re-newed!
.

The problem is the weak, non-gospel centered churches. Or better yet, the community groups that are disguised as churches.

 

[Hammster]

I know how it feels to "cast your pearls" and find them seemingly "trampled under foot" and the people seemingly "turn and tear you to pieces." That's how I felt on some of the threads on theology and ethics. But I do believe those I've read here are concerned mainly that effective advice be given; and that often times does include testimonies; because what you've gone through in your own deliverance from alcohol CAN be beneficial to others. Also, if it seems to be attacked, it's because this is a life and death issue. People need to be saved; but beyond that, if we continue to emphasize only the beginning truths as though that will take one on to maturity, it might not help. Does that make sense?

And, delving deeper into theology, if you think that the Gospel is only about getting out of Hell, then your gospel is too small.

 

[madison1101]

I am not talking about just salvation. The Gospel is much more powerful than that. Go read Paul. He said that he preached Christ and Him crucified. Yet he give advice and direction and rebuking and exortation all through his epistiles. But he was Christ-centered and cross-centered in his approach.

So like I said...alcholol abuse is a sin problem. And the only way to deal with sin is the cross. Whether it be alcohol, food, lying, sex, or whatever. In the case of alcholol abuse, usually the reason the person drinks is because of some other issues. It is those issues that need to be addressed. If someone has a true medical condtion, why send them to AA? That seems to be the most common advice. Yet, I say God has provided the church. And got pragmatic responses as to why AA is better.

Drunkenness is the sin. Alcoholism is a disease.

 

[BlessEwe]

Drunkenness is the sin. Alcoholism is a disease.

I agree

Judging is a sin as well as I am seeing in this thread

 

[Hammster]

Drunkenness is the sin. Alcoholism is a disease.

Then why all of the emphasis on AA?

 

[Christos Anesti]

Going to Church is awesome and has certainly contributed to my being clean but so has going to meetings and talking with fellow addicts who have traveled the road of recovery. It's always good to meet with people who have experience. It's not a one or the other thing. Just like going to Church and working with a dietiticin to formulate a healthy diet isn't a one or the other thing...etc.. You are simply seeking advice from people with experience in the field.

 

[BlessEwe]

Hi Hammster,
You're sincerely wanting to help. How great is this!

Mind you, I'm a Christian, worked in medicine for 30 yrs; plus have loved helping people heal... I love it!

Please, while I do think AA. is not the magic-bullet,
even less generally does the church-route work, for too many people. - Why?
because (after being by God soul-saved), such a person needs emotional-guidance... to heal.

As people benefit from that, they're vastly different, more like perpetually re-newed!
.

I have seen many professional's fall on their face realizing how little knowledge they truly had when it actually happened to them personally. Being in the medical field doesn't grant the person the true knowledge unless they are working in the recovery field seeing what really goes on in the stages of sobriety.
As a medical professional perhaps you may know about endorphins, dopamine destruction ( like a burnt down forest ) of addiction and how it affects the extreme possibility of relapse, until the brain has time to heal.

Testimonies Are a well know fact of helping others as it is used in all programs including churches, no one who shares expects it to be protrayed as the gospel. Why do you think we have people coming up to talk all of the time about their personal salvation to the community.. Why do you think books sell...Because it helps others see they they Can do it too.

Hammster dear, .. If you want to offer your opinion which is a good one it may be good not to criticize others and put them on the defensive. What you have to say is very important and could be a very good conversation, yet I feel you came in criticizing and..taking our inventory.
think about how Christ came in to teach, humbly and graceful loving and open to show all of His wisdom in a non-critical way.

 

[BlessEwe]

Going to Church is awesome and has certainly contributed to my being clean but so has going to meetings and talking with fellow addicts who have traveled the road of recovery. It's always good to meet with people who have experience. It's not a one or the other thing. Just like going to Church and working with a dietiticin to formulate a healthy diet isn't a one or the other thing...etc.. You are simply seeking advice from people with experience in the field.

Very Well Said! Reps to you!

 

[madison1101]

Then why all of the emphasis on AA?

AA offers a program of recovery for people with the disease of alcoholism. That is why all the emphasis on AA.

 

[madison1101]

Then why all of the emphasis on AA?

Before discussing AA anymore, or criticizing it, why don't you read about it. Alcoholics Anonymous :

At this website, you can read the AA Big Book and see what people in AA are learning. You can also find out where there are meetings that you would be welcome to attend yourself. Anybody may attend meetings that are designated as OPEN meetings. CLOSED meetings are for alcoholics only. Many people in the ministry and medical fields have attended OPEN meetings in order to learn more about AA.

 

[BobW188]

Picking up on ChristosAnesti's response, Hammster, we (or most of us) emphasize AA because it helped us and, over the last 75 years, has helped tens of millions of others worldwide. As you yourself have acknowledged, many - I sometimes fear most - churches have a very bad record with addicted people.
A shame you can't attend a few closed meetings; but even an open (to the public) meeting or two might give you a much better idea why we follow both AA and the Cross and find nothing inconsistent in doing so. As it is, you might browse www.aa.org, take a look at our Twelve Steps and Traditions, do some reading in our "Big Book."
In the meantime, I apologize on behalf of all of us here that we've sometimes answered you too harshly. All of us know that AA is not the only way to sobriety; and are as happy to see others acheive it on other paths. If you're helping them do so, terrific!

(Appears Trish and I posted almost simultaneously. Fear not, you haven't developed a sudden case of double vision.)

 

[Hammster]

If alcoholism is a disease, then not recommending medical help is immoral.

I have attended AA meetings, so I am not speaking out of ignorance.

I never put anyone on the defensive. I have been on defense since my first post.

If you want to recommend AA, that is fine. I am not. That, too, should be fine.

(I think that covered it all)

 

[madison1101]

If alcoholism is a disease, then not recommending medical help is immoral.

I have attended AA meetings, so I am not speaking out of ignorance.

I never put anyone on the defensive. I have been on defense since my first post.

If you want to recommend AA, that is fine. I am not. That, too, should be fine.

(I think that covered it all)

Do you have any experience with alcoholism either in yourself or a family member? We who are alcoholics do have experience, and some of us are also professionals in the field.

If you do not have any experience on alcoholism, why would you post here at all? Do you have specialized training in addictions or alcoholism? Are you in recovery yourself? That would be like me giving advice on how to fix an automobile. I have no experience in doing so, and nobody in my family worked on autos.