The 3rd seal is about 7 years of famine all over the world

[Riberra]

Those souls under the altar were beheaded in the tribulation for refusing to worship the beast but the great multitutde are not under the Altar, Rev 7:14 "these are they which came out of great tribulation,"
and they hv physical bodies : 16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more;

Do you hunger actually ?

-What is the reason that it is said that the great multitude were hungry and thirsty... ---->What have happened to that group ...they have even TEARS in THEIR EYES ?

.---->If as you believe they were taken alive while they were watching TV and eating potato chips they should be happy ....But rather -They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more ....and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes ...

 

[iamlamad]

Wrong interpretation.
The Fourth horseman is given power of a quarter of the earth. Revelation 6:8 He will kill a quarter of the earth's PEOPLE. Nothing to do with land at all.
Proved by Zechariah 1:8-11 and 6:1-8. Please correct your teaching on this matter.

Sorry, my friend, but you are not reading that verse correctly.

Revelation 6:8 (ASV) And I saw, and behold, a pale horse: and he that sat upon him, his name was Death; and Hades followed with him. And there was given unto them authority over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with famine, and with death, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

Revelation 6:8 (CSB) And I looked, and there was a pale green horse. The horseman on it was named Death, and Hades was following after him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill by the sword, by famine, by plague, and by the wild animals of the earth.

Revelation 6:8 (WNT) I looked and a pale-colored horse appeared. Its rider's name was Death, and Hades came close behind him; and authority was given to them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with the sword or with famine or pestilence or by means of the wild beasts of the earth.

Revelation 6:8 (YLT) and I saw, and lo, a pale horse, and he who is sitting upon him -- his name is Death, and Hades doth follow with him, and there was given to them authority to kill, (over the fourth part of the land,) with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and by the beasts of the land.

Notice first the "them?" It is not just this 4th rider involved. Notice carefully:
there was given unto them authority ..., to kill with sword
...WHO was given the sword? Of course the rider of the RED horse.
there was given unto them authority ..., to kill with famine
...WHO Was to bring famine? Of course, the rider of the BLACK horse.
there was given unto them authority ..., to kill with Death
...WHO was given the title of DEATH? Of course the rider of the Pale horse.

Therefore the THEM in question is all three riders, or seals 2, 3, and 4.

Was their authority limited? Yes. HOW? It was limited by LAND. By AREA of land. As Young's Literal puts it, "(over the fourth part of the land)."

Therefore, we can know that the riders of the Red horse, the Black horse and the Pale horse ride together, for the purpose of stopping the advance of the CHURCH taking the gospel to the NATIONS. But they were LIMITED in their theater of operations to 1/4th of the earth. We can guess (very accurately) that this 1/4 will be centered on Jerusalem where the gospel began. So that 1/4 would take in all or Europe and all of Africa plus the Middle East.

WHERE did the black plague hit twice, each time killing almost 1/3 of the people? Of course Europe. WHERE have the famines been over our lifetimes? Of course in Africa. But there were famines in Europe also. One million died in Ireland due to potato blight. Other millions died in the rest of Europe of famines during the church age.

 

[iamlamad]

Those souls under the altar were beheaded in the tribulation for refusing to worship the beast but the great multitutde are not under the Altar, Rev 7:14 "these are they which came out of great tribulation,"
and they hv physical bodies : 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more;

You are mistaken, simply because you are pulling these first seals out of their context of chapters 4 & 5. These chapters set the TIMING of the first seals to 32 or 33 AD when Jesus ascended into heaven. These under the altar are CHURCH AGE martyrs, not 70th week or Day of the Lord martyrs. John has not yet in his narrative even started the 70th week or "trib" as some say. The first thing Jesus did when He arrived back into the throne room was get the scroll and begin breaking the seals:
History:
Seal 1: the church sent out with the GOSPEL to make disciples of all nations.
Seal 2 - 4: The RED, the BLACK, and the PALE horses and riders are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel, but they were and are limited to 1/4 of the earth's surface.
Seal 5: the martyrs of the church age
Future:
Seal 6: begins judgment: the Day of the Lord
Seal 7 officially opens the 70th week of Daniel

 

[iamlamad]

What makes you so sure that the great multitude seen in Heaven wearing white robes have been taken to Heaven while they were alive, rather that being the SOULS of DEAD believers wearing white robes like those mentioned at the 5TH SEAL Revelation 6:9-11 ?

There is nothing in Revelation 7:9-16 mentioning that a group of people was caught up to Heaven while they were alive...

Jesus himself said to the 12 Apostles that where He will go [making reference to Heaven] they cannot go there with their physical body... because flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

John 13:36
Simon Peter says to Him, "Lord, where are You going?" Jesus answered him, "Where I go, you are not able to follow Me now, but you will follow afterward."

But you will follow Afterward mean that when they will die their SOUL will ascend to Heaven.....by the way the 12 Apostles have all died martyrs ----->they are part of the early Christians MARTYRS whose SOULS were SEEN BY JOHN at the 5 TH SEAL Revelation 6:9-11

Question:
what makes you so sure that you are more worthy than the 12 Apostles to avoid the same kind of tribulation that they were submitted in their times, .....if the End Times Tribulation is to happen tomorrow ?

We put all the end times scriptures together. It is not wise to form a doctrine from just one verse. We know the rapture WILL happen. From Paul, we know it will come as the trigger for the Day of the Lord. From Paul we know it will come before the man of sin is revealed.

From John we learn that THE DAY begins at the 6th seal. Therefore the rapture MUST (and will) come before the 6th seal. Therefore, JUST before John arrives at chapter 7 in his narrative, we know the Bride of Christ has been escorted into heaven. Therefore, WHO ELSE could this great crowd, too large to number, be?

Did you never read?
Heb. 11:
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

However, if the Lord tarries His coming, and people are being killed here for their testimony as they are in other parts of the world, SO WHAT? Would this cause you to tear out the book of Thes. from your bible?

 

[iamlamad]

If you read 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 attentively you will notice that there is no mention that Jesus will return to Heaven with someone...--->Jesus will not make a U-Turn to return to Heaven.

The text is talking about Jesus who will descend from Heaven with those who SLEEP IN JESUS verse 14 [DEAD BELIEVERS WHOSE SOULS ARE IN HEAVEN] to be resurrected here on the Earth.
-->Then the believers still alive and REMAIN will be caught up together with the resurrected believers to meet Jesus in the CLOUDS IN THE AIR to WHERE Jesus will be AT HIS COMING ..IE over the valley of Meggido ...

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

13 But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them that fall asleep; that ye sorrow not, even as the rest, who have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God BRING with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, and REMAIN UNTO THE COMING of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall DESCEND from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and THE DEAD in Christ shall rise first; 17 then we that are ALIVE, and REMAIN, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



The test of faith during the last 42 months who will precede the Coming of Jesus will be far more harder than that for all the Christians who will have the misfortune to be alive on the Earth ...

The test of faith will goes like this Revelation 14:9-15....

[ don't expect that you will be raptured to Heaven to avoid -that test of faith- if you have the misfortune to be alive during those times ]...


Revelation 14:9-15
9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a great voice, If any man worshippeth the beast and his image, and receiveth a mark on his forehead, or upon his hand, 10 he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 and the smoke of their torment goeth up for ever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, they that worship the beast and his image, and whoso receiveth the mark of his name.

12 Here is the patience of the saints, they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

13 And I heard the voice from heaven saying, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from henceforth: yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; for their works follow with them.

14 And I saw, and behold, a white cloud; and on the cloud [I saw] one sitting like unto a son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out from the temple, crying with a great voice to him that sat on the cloud, Send forth thy sickle, and reap: for the hour to reap is come; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

Jesus in verse 15 is preparing to harvest the SOULS of the Christians who will be beheaded during the 42 months Reign of the Beast ie--->Those who will refuse the mark of the beast...and who will refuse to worship the Beast and his image

They are seen arriving in Heaven in Revelation 15:2 Standing on the Sea of Glass.

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire; and them that come off victorious from the beast, and from his image, and from the number of his name, standing by the sea of glass, having harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, O Lord God, the Almighty; righteous and true are thy ways, thou King of the ages.

Your theory simply does not fit scripture.

Please explain to us HOW you will get to heaven before Revelation 19:7 begins to take place.

 

[iamlamad]

The gathering that will happen at the Return of Jesus, is a transportation to where He is. Firstly in the clouds, then to Jerusalem. Matthew 24:31 tells it.

Revelation 7:9-14 is about the faithful people who have survived the Sixth Seal disaster, you are adding to scripture to say they are in heaven. And to think they go to heaven before this test of faith, is just false teaching.

Of course this theory does not unclude His gathering the saints before the 70th week begins, and even before the Day of wrath begins as shown at the 6th seal. Since these things are truth, Jesus will remain in heaven for the 7 years, as John clearly shows us. So when we "get to live together with Him (So shall we ever be with the Lord) it will be IN HEAVEN.

It is a simple fact: all scriptures about His coming will not "fit" one more coming. Scripture shows us one coming FOR His saints, and another coming WITH His saints.

Keras, how are YOU planning to arrive in heaven before Rev. 19:7? If you are not there, it is very simple: you will not be in the wedding that will take place in heaven.

 

[iamlamad]

AC will be empowered to make peace by the 1st seal opening which is the final 70th week of Daniel, the 7 years grief tribulation.
Jesus horse is in heaven as i hv explained while antichrist horse is on earth conquering the world with peace deals.

Sorry, you are mistaken and are pulling the first seal out of its CONTEXT. Go back and study chapters 4 & 5, which are the proper context. You will see in chapter 5 the very moment Jesus ascended back into heaven, setting the TIMING to around 32 AD.

 

[Riberra]

Your theory simply does not fit scripture.

Please explain to us HOW you will get to heaven before Revelation 19:7 begins to take place.

What John said about the SOULS of the early Christians Martyrs that he saw under the Altar of God in Heaven is very revealing about which part of a human being goes to Heaven .....it is the SOUL who at the death of a believer goes to Heaven.
Revelation 6:9-11
9 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the SOULS of them that had been SLAIN for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 AND THEY CRIED with a great voice, saying, How long, O Master, the holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And there was given them to each one a white robe; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little time, until their fellow-servants also and their brethren, who should be killed even as they were, should have fulfilled [their course].


There is a precise reason why Jesus give a special attention to the Christians who have died martyrs like the Twelve Apostles ---->that is because they have proved their total loyalty even when facing to be put to death for keeping His Testimony [The Gospel] and have NOT Betrayed Jesus by keeping their Faith and His words---> [Like a WIFE who have promised fidelity and loyalty to her husband even unto death]


The crowd to large to number seen in Revelation 7:9-17 are DEAD MARTYRS WHOSE SOULS ARE IN HEAVEN ----->as prophesied at the 5 Th Seal the group of Martyrs wearing White Robes have grown over the years ...there is no more place under the altar so they are seen before the Throne ----->Just before that the Tribulation Trumpets begin to sound ---->remember Jesus said that he will avenge their blood WHEN the number of MARTYRS like those at the 5 Th Seal wearing white robes will have fulfilled its course .... which will happen during the 42 months reign of the Beast Revelation 13 --->Revelation 16 is the time when Jesus will avenge the blood of the Saints Martyrs.

There is OBVIOUSLY something that they share with the Early Christians Martyrs [like the Apostles]mentioned at the 5Th Seal ----They are wearing WHITE ROBES ---->>AS WELL THAT THOSE SEEN In [Revelation 19:1-8] the WIFE have made herself ready [The Group of Martyrs will include those who will be Beheaded during the 42 months reign of the beast that is why the Marriage is mentioned only in Revelation 19] she is clothed in fine lined WHITE and pure ....for the fine linen white and pure represent the RIGHTEOUS ACTS of the SAINTS..

The RIGHTEOUS ACTS of the SAINTS mean that they have ALL been slain for their testimony of Jesus ....they have proved their fidelity and total loyalty to Jesus even when facing death ....that is why they will be part of the FIRST RESURRECTION Revelation 20:4-6 and will reign with Jesus during 1,000 years.

-All the other people [good or bad] not part of the FIRST RESURRECTION mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6 [the reward for the Martyrs] will be Judged at the Great White throne Judgment 1,000 years later Revelation 20:15

 

[keras]

Sorry, my friend, but you are not reading that verse correctly.

My point was that the 4 Horseman of the Apocalypse have power over the people, not the land.
You have proved my point.

Keras, how are YOU planning to arrive in heaven before Rev. 19:7? If you are not there, it is very simple: you will not be in the wedding that will take place in heaven.

NOWHERE does the Bible say the Wedding takes place in heaven. This is false teaching and contradicts the Words of Jesus. John 3:13

 

[iamlamad]

My point was that the 4 Horseman of the Apocalypse have power over the people, not the land.
You have proved my point.

NOWHERE does the Bible say the Wedding takes place in heaven. This is false teaching and contradicts the Words of Jesus. John 3:13

No where? What text are you reading? Chapter 19 takes place in heaven. It is not until after the wedding that Jesus gets on His white horse and descends.

You don't know this, and yet you are here to teach others? What then are you teaching but false doctrine? You do have some points right, but you have missed this one by a country mile.

Here is what you wrote: "He will kill a quarter of the earth's PEOPLE. Nothing to do with land at all. "

Face it: you missed the intent of the Author by a country mile. Worse yet, you won't admit it. It does NOT SAY that 1/4 of the people are killed. It says they are limited to 1/4 of the land area. Their PURPOSE is to prevent or slow the advance of the gospel. OF COURSE that will include PEOPLE, for people live in that 1/4 of the earth.

 

[Riberra]

No where? What text are you reading? Chapter 19 takes place in heaven. It is not until after the wedding that Jesus gets on His white horse and descends.

These are DEAD believers ....more precisely the MARTYRS whose SOULS HAVE ASCENDED TO HEAVEN WHEN THEY DIED. Jesus will descend from Heaven with His Saints .----> The Saints are those who have been slain for their testimony of Jesus and the Word of God...they are wearing WHITE ROBES ...exactly like the MARTYRS of the 5 TH Seal.

See post #68 for details...

 

[iamlamad]

These are DEAD believers ....more precisely the MARTYRS whose SOULS HAVE ASCENDED TO HEAVEN WHEN THEY DIED.

See post #68 for details...

It is a theory that cannot be proven.
I say Rev. 19 starts with raptured saints in heaven.

The clue though is that the marriage and supper will be in heaven. It would be very poor exegesis to say otherwise. The context of the opening of chapter 19 is heaven.

 

[Riberra]

It is a theory that cannot be proven.
I say Rev. 19 starts with raptured saints in heaven.

The clue though is that the marriage and supper will be in heaven. It would be very poor exegesis to say otherwise. The context of the opening of chapter 19 is heaven.

It is said that his wife had made herself ready Revelation 19:7-11....NOT that the marriage and marriage supper have already occurred in Heaven... The marriage will occur when the dead believers will be reunited with the believers still alive and REMAIN UNTO THE COMING OF JESUS IN GLORY IN THE CLOUDS Mentioned in Matthew 24:29-31 ...That is why the marriage and marriage supper is mentioned to occur in Revelation 19.

 

[iamlamad]

It is said that his wife had made herself ready Revelation 19:7-11....NOT that the marriage and marriage supper have already occurred in Heaven... The marriage will occur when the dead believers will be reunited with the believers still alive and REMAIN UNTO THE COMING OF JESUS IN GLORY IN THE CLOUDS Mentioned in Matthew 24:29-31 ...That is why the marriage and marriage supper is mentioned to occur in Revelation 19.

All through Revelation, when John mentions something, that is where it will take place. For example, Rev. 11:2& 2 is where the 42 month count STARTS. 11:3 is where the 1260 day count STARTS. 12:6 is where another 1260 day count STARTS. 13:5 is where another 42 month count STARTS. When a trumpet is sounded, right there at that point in time is when the events of that trumpet will take place. It is the way Revelation is written, except for a few words of prophecy.

Now you wish to change that and say that when John mentions the marriage, it must take place some other time. WRONG! I don't buy it. When John mentions the marriage and says the time "is come," why not just believe him? Oh! Of course! That does not fit your theories! I get it!

The TRUTH is, when John says the time is come, that is when and where the marriage will take place. Same with the supper.

 

[Riberra]

All through Revelation, when John mentions something, that is where it will take place. For example, Rev. 11:2& 2 is where the 42 month count STARTS. 11:3 is where the 1260 day count STARTS. 12:6 is where another 1260 day count STARTS. 13:5 is where another 42 month count STARTS. When a trumpet is sounded, right there at that point in time is when the events of that trumpet will take place. It is the way Revelation is written, except for a few words of prophecy.

Now you wish to change that and say that when John mentions the marriage, it must take place some other time. WRONG! I don't buy it. When John mentions the marriage and says the time "is come," why not just believe him?

Even if the marriage occurs right there in Heaven at that moment ...Jesus is dealing with THE SOULS OF DEAD BELIEVERS... They are wearing fine linen white and pure which is The Righteous ACTS of the SAINTS.

THE Righteous Acts Of The Saints is not about someone who pray very hard to be wisked away while watching TV and eating potato chips,,,,


Revelation 19
7 Let us rejoice and be exceeding glad, and let us give the glory unto him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And it was given unto her that she should array herself in fine linen, white [and] pure: for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they that are bidden to the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are true words of God.

 

[keras]

No where? What text are you reading? Chapter 19 takes place in heaven. It is not until after the wedding that Jesus gets on His white horse and descends.

Only Revelation 19:1 says a vast throng in heaven will praise God for taking vengeance for their blood. For their murders, so they are the souls of the martyrs, as we are told in Revelation 6:9-10
NOWHERE is it said that the Wedding supper of the Lamb takes place in heaven. You add that to scripture.
Humans NEVER go to live in heaven, we are earth people and eventually God and therefore heaven will be on earth. Revelation 21:1-7

 

[R. Hartono]

Chapter 19 takes place in heaven. It is not until after the wedding that Jesus gets on His white horse and descends.

You're absolutely right, Jesus's wedding with the Bride/saints will take place in His Father's home, no way Jesus is going to hire a "Dale Carnegie Hall" on earth ! Our Father's home is the most beautiful place.

 

[R. Hartono]

Humans NEVER go to live in heaven, we are earth people and eventually God and therefore heaven will be on earth.

Have you never read that Enoch and elijah was taken alive to heaven ?

And so did Jesus.

 

[Riberra]

Have you never read that Enoch and elijah was taken alive to heaven ?

Do you really believe that you are comparable to Enoch and Elijah [a prophet] in the eyes of God?

And so did Jesus.

Jesus is God ...His Home Place is Heaven ....our home place is Earth.

John 13:36
Simon Peter says to Him, "Lord, where are You going?" Jesus answered him, "Where I go, you are not able to follow Me now, but you will follow afterward."

but you will follow afterward ----->mean: at their DEATH..

Paul explain that very well :
2 Corinthians 5:8
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body, mean to be present with the Lord.
another translation
2 Corinthians 5:8
8 we are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

 

[keras]

Have you never read that Enoch and elijah was taken alive to heaven ? And so did Jesus.

Of course I have.
But thinking that their special case's, means we too will be taken to heaven, is extremely pretentious, arrogant and totally unbiblical.
I know the Bible very well and there is no verse that says God will take the Church to heaven. You have been taken in by false teaching.
Many prophesies do inform us of God's plans for His people and for all the world. I suggest that you put aside the fables of man and change your beliefs to what the Bible actually says.