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The 10 weeks of Enoch, inspired or not?

DO you believe the book of Enoch is inspired?


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JacksBratt

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I understand your hesitance. I am the same way to some extent.

Either way, the Book of Enoch is a very valuable and informative collection of wisdom, prophesy and knowledge. It has expanded my view of the beginning of time and the events of our early history. It even sheds new light on the times yet to come.... Fascinating work. It leads me to question why I had never heard of it from the pulpit, or why it isn't used as a reference in many occasions.

My own opinion... it states stuff that the church, and laymen, refuse to accept as truth.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Mary had no other children.
If she did not, then Jesus is not the heir to the throne of David, but that's another thread, for the right to the throne of David only comes through Joseph, heir to the throne, who by nature was born of the one from Solomon whose descendants were disinherited from that throne (by the curse of God), but by law, descended from Nathan. So the two genealogies belong to Joseph, as the Church historian, Eusebius, points out in His history.
If Joseph had a son before he became the husband of Mary and legal father to Jesus, then Jesus would not be heir.
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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You have the two geneologies mixed up. Descended from Nathan is thru the line of Mary not Joseph.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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You have the two geneologies mixed up. Descended from Nathan is thru the line of Mary not Joseph.
That is not possible. Mary could not give Jesus the throne of David by inheritance. Only Joseph could.
Eusebius, 5th century, told the Church why the Jewish law gave the genealogies only to Jesus, through Joseph:
" Eusebius, chapter 7:
Chapter 7. The Alleged Discrepancy in the Gospels in regard to the Genealogy of Christ.

1. Matthew and Luke in their gospels have given us the genealogy of Christ differently, and many suppose that they are at variance with one another. Since as a consequence every believer, in ignorance of the truth, has been zealous to invent some explanation which shall harmonize the two passages, permit us to subjoin the account of the matter which has come down to us, and which is given by Africanus, who was mentioned by us just above, in his epistle to Aristides, where he discusses the harmony of the gospel genealogies. After refuting the opinions of others as forced and deceptive, he give the account which he had received from tradition in these words:

2. For whereas the names of the generations were reckoned in Israel either according to nature or according to law—according to nature by the succession of legitimate offspring, and according to law whenever another raised up a child to the name of a brother dying childless; for because a clear hope of resurrection was not yet given they had a representation of the future promise by a kind of mortal resurrection, in order that the name of the one deceased might be perpetuated—

3. whereas then some of those who are inserted in this genealogical table succeeded by natural descent, the son to the father, while others, though born of one father, were ascribed by name to another, mention was made of both of those who were progenitors in fact and of those who were so only in name.

4. Thus neither of the gospels is in error, for one reckons by nature, the other by law. For the line of descent from Solomon and that from Nathan were so involved, the one with the other, by the raising up of children to the childless and by second marriages, that the same persons are justly considered to belong at one time to one, at another time to another; that is, at one time to the reputed fathers, at another to the actual fathers. So that both these accounts are strictly true and come down to Joseph with considerable intricacy indeed, yet quite accurately.

5. But in order that what I have said may be made clear I shall explain the interchange of the generations. If we reckon the generations from David through Solomon, the third from the end is found to be Matthan, who begot Jacob the father of Joseph. But if, with Luke, we reckon them from Nathan the son of David, in like manner the third from the end is Melchi, whose son Eli was the father of Joseph. For Joseph was the son of Eli, the son of Melchi.

6. Joseph therefore being the object proposed to us, it must be shown how it is that each is recorded to be his father, both Jacob, who derived his descent from Solomon, and Eli, who derived his from Nathan; first how it is that these two, Jacob and Eli, were brothers, and then how it is that their fathers, Matthan and Melchi, although of different families, are declared to be grandfathers of Joseph.

7. Matthan and Melchi having married in succession the same woman, begot children who were uterine brothers, for the law did not prohibit a widow, whether such by divorce or by the death of her husband, from marrying another.

8. By Estha then (for this was the woman's name according to tradition) Matthan, a descendant of Solomon, first begot Jacob. And when Matthan was dead, Melchi, who traced his descent back to Nathan, being of the same tribe but of another family, married her as before said, and begot a son Eli.

9. Thus we shall find the two, Jacob and Eli, although belonging to different families, yet brethren by the same mother. Of these the one, Jacob, when his brother Eli had died childless, took the latter's wife and begot by her a son Joseph, his own son by nature and in accordance with reason. Wherefore also it is written: 'Jacob begot Joseph.' Matthew 1:6 But according to law he was the son of Eli, for Jacob, being the brother of the latter, raised up seed to him.

10. Hence the genealogy traced through him will not be rendered void, which the evangelist Matthew in his enumeration gives thus: 'Jacob begot Joseph.' But Luke, on the other hand, says: 'Who was the son, as was supposed' (for this he also adds), 'of Joseph, the son of Eli, the son of Melchi'; for he could not more clearly express the generation according to law. And the expression 'he begot' he has omitted in his genealogical table up to the end, tracing the genealogy back to Adam the son of God. This interpretation is neither incapable of proof nor is it an idle conjecture. "
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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Then seeing as how Joseph isn't the father then law dictates that no bastard shall inherit.
 
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Jude saw fit to use the example of some crept in unawares... to illustrate the point, not give credence to its validity.

Ah... Well done then, Jude.

Looking at the website I was given earlier which houses Book of Enoch; it is not christian at all. Look at all the references to I-Ching, Nostradamus, Vedas, et al. Why on earth would I put stock in the teachings of this website, which is filled with mysticism and occult teachings, over the Bible?

Internet Sacred Text Archive Home
 
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Vicomte13

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Do you actually think that Joseph married Mary, accepted her pregnancy and did not go public with it, married her and spent the rest of his days celibate?

Yes. Obviously. I'm a Catholic.
 
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Vicomte13

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Not necessarily. Too many assumptions in that.
 
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JacksBratt

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I believe that both Mary and Joseph had bloodlines that are from King David. Either way, Christ is the rightful King.

Joseph is His adopted father, Mary is his birth mother. All His brothers and sisters were fully His brothers and sisters by family and half brothers and sisters by genetics.
 
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Vicomte13

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Do you believe it because your Catholic, or do you believe it because you think it's the truth?

I am Catholic because I believe Catholicism is True.
This detail regarding Mary is taught by Catholicism - I don't personally care either way.
The Church being right and true on everything that I DO care about, and on every fact on which there is clear evidence I have studied, I have no reason to doubt that the Church is also correct on this matter. Given that the Holy Spirit dwells within the Church, rendering the Church teachings on matters of faith and morals infallible because revealed by God, and given that perpetual virginity is one of the four dogmatic truths about Mary, I accept the revelation of God, through the Catholic Church, that clarifies the open question left by the Bible, history and tradition.

What you think the Bible is, I think the Church is.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Then seeing as how Joseph isn't the father then law dictates that no bastard shall inherit.
You, sir, are in great error.
Jesus reverse adopted His New creation human being Kinsman to Adam flesh body by putting on that flesh garment (Isaiah 59), created brand new in the the womb of the virgin and, being born out of the womb of the legal wife to Joseph, not only inherited the legal right to the throne of David, but is the Kinsman/Redeemer to the entire Adam race, and had the power and authority to ransom back the lost kingdom, which our first father, Adam, sold into sin and corruption.
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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Nathan is in the line of Mary which is easy to trace in the geneologies of Matthew and Luke. God doesn't follow rabinical rule either. Do you have anything else to go on that makes you believe that both geneologies are Joseph's. That one is of Mary seems the obvious
 
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MyGivenNameIsKeith

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The seventh from Adam, Enoch, really did prophesy that the Lord will come with ten thousands of saints. Jude 1:9 came from Enoch himself shown by Jude in the New Testament, not the book of Enoch. It is just a good example of how real scriptures and prophecies can be taken and added to; and made into something that is passed off as legit. I honestly can't say for certain who did in fact write it, but it helps to read it and question it yourself. Pray about it. Pick it apart like God tells you to do. If it doesn't fit with his word (which I have found it doesn't) then one can dismiss it. It just seems highly unlikely that God would list a hierarchy of demons or give a place for worldly things, as they are not consistent with that which is eternal in heaven. More or less, my two cents. Test the spirits whether they be from God. (1 John 4:1) because I myself can't say what God did or didn't do, except what he tells me he did, or didn't. Just be sure to remember, the fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge. To depart from evil is understanding. He will guide your paths and make them straight, and if you ask him, he will freely give you the understanding and knowledge you truly seek and need.
 
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It just seems highly unlikely that God would list a hierarchy of demons or give a place for worldly things, as they are not consistent with that which is eternal in heaven.

Exactly. God does not want us to be exposed to books that speak of necromancy and demons. We are expressly forbidden from attempting contact with the spirit realm, where the higher battle is taking place, for our protection. Such occult knowledge and mysticism need not concern us as we are to rely upon God alone for assistance here on earth.

The other writings of Enoch, I believe, cannot be divinely inspired because they speak of flat earth. This ancient theory is being promoted as fact today, and it holds an interesting correlation with this passage in Matthew 24:37

"As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man."

Way back when, it was universally accepted that the earth was flat. Now, with the resurgence of so much "ancient" occultist wisdom indexed, preserved and promoted via the internet, more and more people are accepting that the earth is flat... just like in the days of Noah.
 
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MyGivenNameIsKeith

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Perpetual virginity is not supported by scriptures in any fashion. On the contrary, Mary had other sons James, Simon, Joseph, and Judas according to scriptures in the book of Matthew. They were both Joseph and Mary's kids. Hence, not perpetual. Scriptures clearly point out that relations didn't happen until after Jesus was born, thereby solidifying the fact, they did the dirty afterwards and had other kids. Not really that hard to figure out. Read your bible. Stop going by traditions of men. That's how people are led astray. And not to be judgmental, but your post rather states the obvious thing you don't see. Which is that your church is right and true about the stuff you care about, but every thing else you find to be inaccurate or confusing, you just give up and take their word for it. God's word (all true doctrine) is profitable for reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness. God's word is God's word. In my research, God really has left no "open questions". That all comes from men's traditions and things of that nature, which scriptures warn you against. Just as christening is a false baptism according to the scriptures. 1 John 4:1 states to test the spirits, whether they be of God. I encourage you to do just that. I can give you scriptural proof, showing many times of many "traditions" that you hold in that denomination that are refuted, rebuked, and anger the Lord something fierce. What is past is now, and what is now, is of old. So everything you think you know, you don't. Because you look at it as a natural man, not as a spiritual one. the natural man cannot know that which is spiritual because spiritual things are spiritually discerned.
 
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Vicomte13

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Scriptures clearly point out
What you think the Scriptures are, I think the Church is: the final revealed authority of God. Therefore, the Scriptures mean what God tells us they mean, through the Church.
 
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MyGivenNameIsKeith

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"As in the days of Noe were, so also shall be the coming of the Son of Man."
He was speaking in a multi-fold fashion, a hidden parable if I may share. See Genesis 6:5-8 to begin with and it states that the wickedness was great in all the earth and that all man was wicked, but Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. Jesus was that grace. The flood was judgment, true and just, but if you look carefully, it was also the first time earth had ever received rain. A rather hidden fun fact eh? Destroy all wickedness , preserve the ones saved by grace, in an ark no less. Coincidentally, the stones of the law moses was kept in an ark. I would have you look at Genesis 8:7-12 also. Read and reread very carefully. The raven and the dove are a person's two natures. The raven is the worldly man only interested in the worldly things. It went to and fro scavenging and feasting on the dead bodies floating in the water. Much the same way the devil is of the worldly things. The dove was only interested in the new things. The dove is the believers nature. The new creation which is eternal life. Which is what the spring inside of the believer is all about. Its new life. Anyways, the dove has 3 separate instances of coming and going in relation to Noah and the ark. This is the wording I referred to. They symbolize the Holy Spirit and how the Flood (Deluge) was the first time the dove went out and came back to the ark (the law), the second being the dove has a branch (when Christ came and the Holy Spirit came upon individual believers) though it never states the dove came back to the ark. The third time the dove didn't return, this will be the fiery judgment. God is a consuming fire. So what Jesus said about in the days of Noah, had nothing to do with a flat earth theory. That is just trying to justify God with science (falsely so-called). Trust the LORD with all your heart and don't lean on your own understanding. (proverbs 3:5)
 
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So what Jesus said about in the days of Noah, had nothing to do with a flat earth theory. That is just trying to justify God with science (falsely so-called).

I appreciate the rest of your post, but I think there's a misconception here about what I said above.
 
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