The 10 weeks of Enoch, inspired or not?

JIMINZ · Oct 15, 2017

Jipsah said:
Sounds good. May we assume, then, that the parts of "Enoch" that are important are those included in canonical Scripture, and those not included are not? If so, then we are in agreement.

Good points. Where was "Enoch", and in what form, until it surfaced some centuries after the presumed author had left?

.
Agreed.

I can only assume, Enoch lived in the area East of Eden.

Noah must have lived in the same general area as well.

But, when the Flood took place, Noah ended up on a mountain in Turkey.

Where then was this Manuscript Enoch wrote, how did it survive such a flood, If nobody knows where Eden was, then who found it and when?

Did Noah have it in the Ark?

I guess it all falls into Supposition, Assumption.

Mat. 15:14
Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Eph. 4:14
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

YHWH_will_uplift · Oct 15, 2017

GUANO said:
There is no record in the Bible that says that Noah was commanded to carry or carried a library of scrolls with him on the ark. Do you think it's an authoritative book? If so then i guess the earth is flat and the luminaries enter and exit portals at the ends of the earth...? There is no physical evidence that the book existed before the babylonian exile.

At the end of the day, I dont think it was written by Enoch even by the content of the writing alone as there are several different writing styles that are quite different within it. With that being said, I have read it many times and have a deep respect for that book and the authorship has no bearing on whether or not I think it's inspired.

So you have no proof? The new testament doesn't day anything detailed about the Law of Moses why? Because that was written at great length in the old testament. Similarly we see Genesis is a shortened account of all the happenings in early history but why? Because other books were written which contain more detail if the reader wished to know more. Another example of this is found I'm Joshua's long day where Joshua tells us that if we want more details on this battle to read the book of Jasher. It should be no surprise then why Moses did not mention Noah carrying scrolls onto the ark as Enoch mentioned this already. Enoch as even commanded to Wei all he learned and pass it down to his son Methuselah so, we may regard the 1 Enoch we have currently as an incomplete work as there obvious parts missing.

YHWH_will_uplift · Oct 15, 2017

Jipsah said:
Well, no. You told us what you believe, but that hardly constitutes proof. Unfortunately there's a fair bit of "Enoch" that is sheer bunk. The BOOK OF THE COURSES OF THE HEAVENLY LUMINARIES, for instance, goes into painful detail as to how the sun moves about the earth, every word of which is utter nonsense. One would think that any writing inspired by God would, if they were going to describe such things at all, get 'em right. After all, God designed the whole shootin' match, and so presumably knows how it works. Whoever wrote "Enoch" obviously not only didn't know how it works, he didn't even suspect how any of it worked. But he gets a gold star for creativity, as he has the sun nipping in and out of "portals" and "windows" at different times of year so as to vary the length of days (which he apparently believed to be the same everywhere, oops!). The writer's notions of the causes of weather and geography are pretty hilarious a well.

So to me, "Enoch" is clearly bogus. Tell me that the sun rises in the east, fine. That's how we all talk. Tell me, at wearisome length, how the sun performs maneuvers and gyrations that it patently does not, and that it's driven by the wind, and that it and the moon are roughly the same size, and so on ad absurdum, then it's no longer a matter of colloquial speech, it's a matter of making stuff up and peddling it as fact.

Really? Because simple arithmetic tells us the 7 Days × 52 Weeks = 364 Days, not 365.25 Days. Anyways if you want more proof on this read my blog posts: you should be able to find them relatively quickly when you look under the most viewed blog entries. Ive been keeping track of the days according to 1 Enoch and they are falling perfect into place as he wrote.

friend of · Oct 15, 2017

YHWH_will_uplift said:
So you have no proof?

The burden of proof is yours as you are the one claiming Enoch was divinely inspired. No mention is made of Noah interacting with anything written by Enoch in Genesis.

How are you proposing that a Pentateuch of Enoch was preserved in the flood? The flood would have rendered a scroll unsalvageable.

JacksBratt · Oct 15, 2017

friend of said:
The burden of proof is yours as you are the one claiming Enoch was divinely inspired. No mention is made of Noah interacting with anything written by Enoch in Genesis.

How are you proposing that a Pentateuch of Enoch was preserved in the flood? The flood would have rendered a scroll unsalvageable.

The book would have easily survived the flood if it was on the ark, just like it is said it was.

What do you mean "No mention is made of Noah interacting with anything written by Enoch in Genesis?"

JacksBratt · Oct 15, 2017

Jipsah said:
Well, no. You told us what you believe, but that hardly constitutes proof. Unfortunately there's a fair bit of "Enoch" that is sheer bunk. The BOOK OF THE COURSES OF THE HEAVENLY LUMINARIES, for instance, goes into painful detail as to how the sun moves about the earth, every word of which is utter nonsense. One would think that any writing inspired by God would, if they were going to describe such things at all, get 'em right. After all, God designed the whole shootin' match, and so presumably knows how it works. Whoever wrote "Enoch" obviously not only didn't know how it works, he didn't even suspect how any of it worked. But he gets a gold star for creativity, as he has the sun nipping in and out of "portals" and "windows" at different times of year so as to vary the length of days (which he apparently believed to be the same everywhere, oops!). The writer's notions of the causes of weather and geography are pretty hilarious a well.

So to me, "Enoch" is clearly bogus. Tell me that the sun rises in the east, fine. That's how we all talk. Tell me, at wearisome length, how the sun performs maneuvers and gyrations that it patently does not, and that it's driven by the wind, and that it and the moon are roughly the same size, and so on ad absurdum, then it's no longer a matter of colloquial speech, it's a matter of making stuff up and peddling it as fact.

Pure bunk, is it? What if the people of years gone by have not included the Book of Enoch due to this same thinking.... that it goes against common belief?

What if everything stated in the book is actually the real truth? What have we got but the words of mere men, that would prove otherwise?

friend of · Oct 15, 2017

JacksBratt said:
just like it is said it was

Which verses please.

friend of · Oct 15, 2017

JacksBratt said:
What have we got but the words of mere men, that would prove otherwise?

As Christians we believe that the Bible is divinely inspired. Not the words of "mere men" any more than a fountain pen deserves credit for writing a best seller and not the author himself, God used human beings to write His word.

Jipsah · Oct 15, 2017

YHWH_will_uplift said:
Really? Because simple arithmetic tells us the 7 Days × 52 Weeks = 364 Days, not 365.25 Days.

That's the least egregious error in the whole nonsensical thing, and th writer got that one almost right because it was common knowledge at the time, people being able to count and all. The rest is purest hogwash, end to end.

BTW, just an aside, weeks have no astronomical significance. Days, are one revolution of the earth, a year is one orbit of the sun, and a week is simply an arbitrary number of days.

Jipsah · Oct 15, 2017

JacksBratt said:
Pure bunk, is it?

The very purest.

What if the people of years gone by have not included the Book of Enoch due to this same thinking.... that it goes against common belief?

How about because it doesn't even resemble reality? Read it yourself, here's a URL: The Book of Enoch: The Book of the Courses of the Heavenly Luminaries: Chapter LXXII.

What if everything stated in the book is actually the real truth?

Can't be, because the descriptions of the workings of God's design are observably false. Kinda like saying "what if the sun really does rise in the south, and whales fly in flocks like geese?". In other words, nonsense.

What have we got but the words of mere men, that would prove otherwise?

The reality of God's design enough for you? <Laugh>

yeshuasavedme · Oct 15, 2017

JIMINZ said:
.
Because of the reasons I gave, if God had wanted the Book of Enoch in the Canon it would have been there.......Period, it's Gods' Word not ours, He can do what He wants and when He wants.

It's not there because God did not want it there.

Christians have enough trouble with the Books which are in the Canon without dragging other obscure books into the mix.

Why do you think God is responsible for men's "canon" lists?
Never, ever, in the history of the Church has there been a consensus of agreement among all the political rulers of all the different "churches" on what is "canon" for all believers.
The Holy Spirit did not wait until the fourth century after the Church of Jesus Christ was established on earth to give some men in political places of power over the minds of others what He wanted them to "list" as "inspired".
The Holy Spirit does not play politics of power and does not change His mind as those political powers over "churches" change.

yeshuasavedme · Oct 15, 2017

YHWH_will_uplift said:
Really? Because simple arithmetic tells us the 7 Days × 52 Weeks = 364 Days, not 365.25 Days. Anyways if you want more proof on this read my blog posts: you should be able to find them relatively quickly when you look under the most viewed blog entries. Ive been keeping track of the days according to 1 Enoch and they are falling perfect into place as he wrote.

Oops! 360 days...but the 4 days added to the Enochian calendar at year's end make a perfect 364 day year from equinox to equinox.
The four days that are added are sabbath stop days that are not counted in the years' months, but head the four seasons: Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter.
The days of the week are always even in the Enochian calendar, and every anniversary of every event always happens on the same day of the week as the first one, so Passover, for instance, was always on the fourteenth day of the month of the new year that begins with spring equinox.

Because Enoch's days are measured in 18 parts, not 24 hours, and begin with sunset, the year is perfectly calculated year to year, from equinox to equinox. Because the "parts" of those four Sabbath/Stop days heading the seasons are not counted in the year, but their number, four, is added at the end of the year, the years are always perfect, and even.

yeshuasavedme · Oct 15, 2017

friend of said:
The burden of proof is yours as you are the one claiming Enoch was divinely inspired. No mention is made of Noah interacting with anything written by Enoch in Genesis.

How are you proposing that a Pentateuch of Enoch was preserved in the flood? The flood would have rendered a scroll unsalvageable.

Enoch's companion in preaching for the 120 years before the flood, that Enoch prophesied, and God confirmed to Noah, was the son of Enoch.
In other words: Methusaleh was the son of Enoch, and Enoch committed all his books to Methuseleh to keep for all the sons of Adam for all the ages of this present creation.
To even suggest that Noah did not have the books Enoch wrote, with him on the Ark, is denying reality of who Noah was, and who Methusaleh was.
Shem outlived Abraham, and died when Jacob was 50 years old....

JacksBratt · Oct 15, 2017

friend of said:
As Christians we believe that the Bible is divinely inspired. Not the words of "mere men" any more than a fountain pen deserves credit for writing a best seller and not the author himself, God used human beings to write His word.

There are many things in the bible that are contradicted by the "wisdom" of mere men and they are then accepted as truth over the word of God.

I fully believe that the Bible is the true word of God. Inspired by God and breathed by the Holy spirit. Written down by men while being guided by God.

However, the world we live in does not believe as we do and therefore many have had to twist or "interpret" the biblical accounts in a certain way in order to avoid retribution.

IF there are things written in the Book of Enoch that are parallel to and synchronized with the word of God, then... they are not "bunk".

JacksBratt · Oct 15, 2017

Jipsah said:
The very purest.

How about because it doesn't even resemble reality? Read it yourself, here's a URL: The Book of Enoch: The Book of the Courses of the Heavenly Luminaries: Chapter LXXII.

Can't be, because the descriptions of the workings of God's design are observably false. Kinda like saying "what if the sun really does rise in the south, and whales fly in flocks like geese?". In other words, nonsense.

The reality of God's design enough for you? <Laugh>

Maybe choose one thing that is written in the Book of Enoch and how it contradicts the workings of God's design. Give us one example. Because, saying "whales fly in flocks like geese" would be simple to disprove and show.........if that is what it said in the Book of Enoch. I found no such nonsense.

YHWH_will_uplift · Oct 15, 2017

yeshuasavedme said:
Enoch's companion in preaching for the 120 years before the flood, that Enoch prophesied, and God confirmed to Noah, was the son of Enoch.
In other words: Methusaleh was the son of Enoch, and Enoch committed all his books to Methuseleh to keep for all the sons of Adam for all the ages of this present creation.
To even suggest that Noah did not have the books Enoch wrote, with him on the Ark, is denying reality of who Noah was, and who Methusaleh was.
Shem outlived Abraham, and died when Jacob was 50 years old....

Amen! And note that God instructed Noah to gather all of the clean and unclean animals with explaining to him how to distinguish between them! This is internal evidence that Noah received prior instruction on animal's; and, that Noah built an altar is further evidence that he was taught about animal sacrifice prior to the flood. These lend further credit to the book of Enoch and should come to no surprise as Cain and Abel made a burnt offering and, that could only happen if they were taught by Adam and Eve.

YHWH_will_uplift · Oct 15, 2017

JIMINZ said:
.
Agreed.

I can only assume, Enoch lived in the area East of Eden.

Noah must have lived in the same general area as well.

But, when the Flood took place, Noah ended up on a mountain in Turkey.

Where then was this Manuscript Enoch wrote, how did it survive such a flood, If nobody knows where Eden was, then who found it and when?

Did Noah have it in the Ark?

I guess it all falls into Supposition, Assumption.

Mat. 15:14
Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Eph. 4:14
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Wrong, Enoch says he gave it to Methuselah who then entrusted it to Noah. Who cares if we don't know right now how they ended up in the hands of the Ethiopians. We know they did and that there were older copies found in Qumran in Aramaic.

Jipsah · Oct 15, 2017

yeshuasavedme said:
Why do you think God is responsible for men's "canon" lists?.

God is responsible for the design of the universe, which the writer of
"Enoch" obviously knew nothing whatsoever about.

YHWH_will_uplift · Oct 15, 2017

Jipsah said:
God is responsible for the design of the universe, which the writer of
"Enoch" obviously knew nothing whatsoever about.

Well according to the heliocentric model the sun is stationary but, for some reason God stopped the sun from moving when Joshua commanded it to. Surely God would have corrected Joshua by telling him that He needed to tell the earth to stop moving.

friend of · Oct 15, 2017

JacksBratt said:
There are many things in the bible that are contradicted by the "wisdom" of mere men and they are then accepted as truth over the word of God.

Fair enough. Would you consider the Apocrypha to be deuterocannonical? As a protestant, I do not.

The 10 weeks of Enoch, inspired or not?

DO you believe the book of Enoch is inspired?

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Yes

I have read it, but have no opinion

I haven't read it

I intend to read it

I don't intend to read it

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