• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

The “Five Solas” of denominationalism. Are They Scriptural?

CObondservant

Active Member
Aug 26, 2017
43
20
56
Colorado
✟24,466.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The “Five Solas” of denominationalism. Are They Scriptural?

The “Five Solas” come from the Protestant Reformation of the 1500’s. The five “solas” or “only alones” are, 1) sola scriptura (bible alone) 2) sola fide (faith alone) 3) sola gratia (grace alone) 4) solus Christus (Christ alone) 5) soli Deo gloria (to the glory of God alone).

The Reformers (Luther, Zwingly, Calvin, etc.) observed the corruption in Catholicism and set out to “reform” Catholicism back to it’s roots. The problem with reforming any denomination is that all denominations are inherently broken when they were created by man. It is a worthless goal to try to fix something that was broken when it was created. The Reformers were very exuberant in trying to reform Catholicism and ended up creating even more man-made denominations. The Reformation was an extreme overreaction to Catholicism which sent the Reformers to the other side of the spectrum instead of into the bible. Both sides are wrong since neither uses the bible alone to preach the simple gospel of Christ all the while claiming that they use the bible. Catholics generally claim the bible is not authoritative, and the Protestants claim that even obeying the commands of God will not save you. Protestants read bible verses like Eph 2:8 “ For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.” and determined that the works-based romish system was wrong because they did not preach salvation by grace through faith- and they add in the word “alone”. Catholicism does not teach the gospel plan of salvation of Peter’s sermon in Acts 2:36-38. (NOTE: Acts 2:36-38 is the world’s first-ever gospel sermon) The Protestant Reformers also do not preach the gospel plan of salvation of Peter’s sermon in Acts 2:36-38. Both groups have been explaining away God’s clear commands for hundreds of years, fighting one another, all the while the church of Christ of Acts 2 has remained on Earth as pure as when it was created by Jesus in AD 33 on the Day of Pentecost. God calls us to His Word and not to the far left or right of the Word. It is good to hate error, however error should draw us to the dead center of where God wants us which is in the bible and not in various groups not called by his Name (Catholicism, Lutheranism, Protestantism, Methodism, etc.) When we overreact to an idea we are drawn away from the bible to our own thoughts and feelings which replace God’s Word. We then try and find ways to make the bible fit our opinions instead of accepting Jesus teaching as written.

Jesus owns His church, Matt 16:18. He died to purchase it, Acts 20:28. Since He died to create the church, it goes by His Name in scripture, the church OF Christ, Rom 16:16. All other names such as catholic, calvin, methodist must be rejected having nothing to do with our salvation.

It is sad and unfortunate that Catholicism and Protestantism both use just a few verses to make their claim that they are the true church. Literature is CUMULATIVE. This means God expects to use all the bible when we study. When we study salvation, we are supposed to topically search the bible and look at all verses pertaining to salvation and assemble them all and determine what God has said on the topic. Literature including God’s Word uses much figurative language. We need good reading comprehension to understand any literature. We need to understand theme, context, and vocabulary, literal and figurative, among others. For example in Eph 2:8, Paul’s theme is different than in Romans, or in Luke’s writing of Acts. Eph 2:8 is not a recipe for salvation as it might sound and neither is John 3:16. Paul is not contradicting his other (or other apostles’) writing on salvation which includes hearing the right gospel preached, belief, public confession before many, repentance, and immersion for the remission of sins.

So what is Paul really saying in Eph 2:8? Sometimes when we write, we use one “umbrella” idea to stand for all the other ideas we’ve previously spoken or written about. This is called synecdoche. In Eph 2:8 when Paul says grace through faith, he wants you to remember everything else he’s written on salvation, too. Eph 2:8 is one part of salvation that stands for the whole pattern. If we choose to use Eph 2:8 alone, then we’ve failed in our reading comprehension of the whole bible. We fail because we ignore all the other things Paul said on salvation. Failing to assemble all Paul said on salvation and using one or two sentences will cause us to disobey Jesus pattern of salvation and we will end up in Hell for eternity. So it is critical that we have good reading comprehension. The 5 solas must be compared to the bible to determine if they are godly or not. If not, quickly reject them and replace them with the bible.

Bible alone is scriptural since the bible is all we have. Without the bible we’d know nothing of the commands of God. The canon was complete before 100 AD based on the earmarks of inspiration and the work of God. Creeds, manuals, traditions, and other man-made pretended authority must be rejected since they aren’t inspired. Only the 66 books we have today are inspired because that’s all that God chose to inspire. God is intelligent enough to make His will known to humanity.

Grace or faith alone is not biblical because no writer ever said we’re saved by grace or faith “alone”. The only place in the bible where the two words “faith” and “alone” appear together are in James 2:24. I’ll let the reader determine whether this passage says we’re saved by faith alone or not. James 2:24, “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” Faith alone has been preached loud and hard for 600 years so most people now believe it. The world claims all we need to do is believe. But claiming isn't proving. There are many other passages that talk about salvation and they mention belief, public confession before many, repentance, and immersion for the remission of sins. Those who have actually taken the time to study the bible topically will reject “faith alone”.

Christ alone is an incomplete thought. Some say, “Hey Jesus died for you” and seem to mean that just because Jesus died, we’re all automatically saved. Christ alone does not carry with it the five points that Jesus commanded us to obey to be saved (Hebrews 5:8-9).
To the glory of God alone is only biblical if we are obedient to the gospel. The New Testament repeatedly teaches that we must obey Jesus commands if we want to be saved. We cannot glorify God while refusing to obey Him.

Note that man didn't come up with the plan of salvation - none of it, not even one little part. It all came directly from God. It doesn't belong to man. It was given to us by God that we with tender hearts might take part in them to please God. God does His part, we do our part. We have free will and God promises to do His part if, and only if, we do ours. Make no mistake, each of the five steps of salvation save us, however we are not saved until we are immersed for the correct reason. Note this passage.

"...In whom ye were also circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands, in the putting off of the body of the flesh, in the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with him in BAPTISM, wherein ye were also raised with him through faith in THE WORKING OF GOD, who raised him from the dead." Colossians 2:11-12

These are God's commands which God GIVES man to participate in to be saved: Hear, Believe, Repent, Confess, and be Immersed for the remission of our sins FOR salvation. So let's not fight God or look for loopholes out of his commands. Just obey the pattern He gave us. God does the heavy lifting. We just obey.

Agape,
Mark
 

nonaeroterraqueous

Nonexistent Member
Aug 16, 2014
2,915
2,726
✟196,517.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Since He died to create the church, it goes by His Name in scripture, the church OF Christ, Rom 16:16. All other names such as catholic, calvin, methodist must be rejected having nothing to do with our salvation.

I didn't realize there was a Church of Calvin. I guess I've been missing out. Most protestants make no claim that church membership in any particular denomination has any bearing on salvation. Most of us recognize that there is a greater church, larger than the denominations. Catholics...no so much.

It is sad and unfortunate that Catholicism and Protestantism both use just a few verses to make their claim that they are the true church.

No, they don't. There's a difference between claiming the most correct doctrine and claiming to be "the true church." That's a Catholic claim, but not a Protestant one, usually. Such claims are generally reserved for cults. The body of Christ is bigger than any denomination, and if you want to cut yourself off from it, then you do so at your own peril. If you want to claim that your denomination is the universal church, then you can go have at it with the Catholics, but leave us Protestants out of it, please.
 
Upvote 0

nonaeroterraqueous

Nonexistent Member
Aug 16, 2014
2,915
2,726
✟196,517.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
(For those of you listening, it's the International Church of Christ that emphasizes baptism and claims to be the one true church. All the rest of us are unsaved, according to them, because we belong to the wrong denomination, even though we accepted Christ and consider ourselves members of the body of Christ. Essentially, it's a new Catholic Church, or an attempt at one. I would rather live without that way of thinking, frankly)
 
Upvote 0

-V-

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2016
1,229
511
USA
✟45,538.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
I'm not gonna say whether any particular "sola" is Scriptural or not. But I will advise that first one makes sure they understand what the exact teaching of any of the "solas" is before deciding. Because, based on the statements in the OP, I get the impression that you don't quite understand what they truly teach.

You also need to make sure you're quoting the Bible accurately and understanding its terms. Because, just as an example, in your comments on James, you apparently confuse salvation and justification - they are different things and are not interchangeable. It's also important to note that "justification" doesn't always mean the exact same thing in its various places in the Bible. Paul & James each use "justification" in a different way.
 
Upvote 0

actionsub

Sir, this is a Wendy's...
Jun 20, 2004
955
347
Belleville, IL
✟72,707.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
(For those of you listening, it's the International Church of Christ that emphasizes baptism and claims to be the one true church. All the rest of us are unsaved, according to them, because we belong to the wrong denomination, even though we accepted Christ and consider ourselves members of the body of Christ. Essentially, it's a new Catholic Church, or an attempt at one. I would rather live without that way of thinking, frankly)

More accurately, the ICoC is a new "Church of Christ". It was spun off from the Church of Christ movement, which holds that musical instruments were not part of the New Testament pattern for the church, and emphasized the necessity of immersion baptism for salvation per Acts 2:38. The
Church of Christ movement (you call them a denomination and you will have a fight on your hands!) was founded on the idea that the Church that Jesus founded had been hopelessly corrupted both by Catholics and Protestants, resulting in the denominational divisions that exist.

The ICoC took all that...and went one step further in creating a sort of pyramid-style discipleship in which each member had to be subject to a "discipler". The abuses that sprung out of that led to some relaxing of this idea in recent years, to my understanding. That said, if there are any ICoC folk out there who can clarify on this or correct any misstatements, I leave it open to you.
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
39,532
29,040
Pacific Northwest
✟812,641.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
The "solas" aren't necessarily some dogmatic thing, it's more about how the Reformers operated. Further, while all five are often indiscriminately attached to the Reformation, in some sense they are more accurately reflections of the Reformed tradition; the Lutheran tradition does the "sola" thing too, but not quite the same way (at least arguably).

The chief principle of the Lutheran reformation was the teaching of justification by grace alone through faith (alone); and hence "grace alone" and "faith alone" are certainly important to Lutheran teaching. Scripture alone, more accurately "Word alone" is about the efficacy of God's word to accomplish what it promises. For Lutherans "Word and Sacrament" are the Means of Grace through which God operates to create and sustain faith and nourish us and deliver to us the promises of God, and "Word and Sacrament" are not separate things but one thing, because the Sacraments are themselves Word. And all of this centers upon the most important aspect here: Christ alone. It is on Christ's account alone that we are justified and saved, what Christ has done for us is all-sufficient and has accomplished everything necessary, and it is Christ Himself and His work delivered to us through Word and Sacrament, by God's grace alone, through faith that we are saved, justified, Christian people.

Thus these: Grace Alone, Faith Alone, Word Alone all point to the center, Christ and Christ Alone.
rose.jpg


It's about getting the right emphasis: it isn't about us, it's about Jesus.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

CObondservant

Active Member
Aug 26, 2017
43
20
56
Colorado
✟24,466.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The "solas" aren't necessarily some dogmatic thing, it's more about how the Reformers operated. Further, while all five are often indiscriminately attached to the Reformation, in some sense they are more accurately reflections of the Reformed tradition; the Lutheran tradition does the "sola" thing too, but not quite the same way (at least arguably).

The chief principle of the Lutheran reformation was the teaching of justification by grace alone through faith (alone); and hence "grace alone" and "faith alone" are certainly important to Lutheran teaching. Scripture alone, more accurately "Word alone" is about the efficacy of God's word to accomplish what it promises. For Lutherans "Word and Sacrament" are the Means of Grace through which God operates to create and sustain faith and nourish us and deliver to us the promises of God, and "Word and Sacrament" are not separate things but one thing, because the Sacraments are themselves Word. And all of this centers upon the most important aspect here: Christ alone. It is on Christ's account alone that we are justified and saved, what Christ has done for us is all-sufficient and has accomplished everything necessary, and it is Christ Himself and His work delivered to us through Word and Sacrament, by God's grace alone, through faith that we are saved, justified, Christian people.

Thus these: Grace Alone, Faith Alone, Word Alone all point to the center, Christ and Christ Alone.
rose.jpg


It's about getting the right emphasis: it isn't about us, it's about Jesus.

-CryptoLutheran

Luther certainly had the right idea didnt he! He just didn't go far enough, and he got 'stuck' on one or two verses.
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
39,532
29,040
Pacific Northwest
✟812,641.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Luther certainly had the right idea didnt he! He just didn't go far enough, and he got 'stuck' on one or two verses.

The idea that "[Luther] didn't go far enough" assumes that the point of the Reformation was to distance itself from what came before. That wasn't the point. This is frequently said by those who ultimately don't agree with the Reformation and aren't interested in the reform, but instead the antagonistic overthrow of historic Christianity.

Luther wasn't interested in abandoning the ancient and catholic Church of Jesus Christ, he was interested in addressing the abuses of the time which had crept into the Church; what made Luther different than other reformers in the Church was that Luther saw the root cause of these abuses as not merely a matter of discipline needing to be corrected (though that was certainly part of it) but that the root cause was teaching which obfuscated the Gospel from the hearing and hearts of the ordinary Faithful.

To add to my "not far enough" criticism, it is my experience that the "not far enough" crowd typically ends up adopting a position completely antithetical to Luther and the Evangelical Reformers and thus antithetical to the central tenet of the Reformation: That we are justified by grace alone through faith on Christ's account alone; the "not far enough" crowd usually then wants to do away with Jutification by grace alone through faith on Christ's account alone and introduce their own works of righteousness to themselves obfuscate the Gospel--in doing so they make themselves enemies of the Gospel and the Faith. And whatever errors the Reformers perceived in Rome at the time are taken, and amplified a hundred fold by these neo-Protestants who aren't interested in the preaching of the Gospel and the true and catholic faith of the Christian Church, but are instead interested in their own sectarian ideals and reinventing the wheel.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
39,532
29,040
Pacific Northwest
✟812,641.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
There's no hope in Protestantism, nor Catholicism. The Lord only built one church

We confess faith in Christ's one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church as is taught in the holy Creeds of the Church.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
15,921
3,982
✟385,322.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
The “Five Solas” of denominationalism. Are They Scriptural?

The “Five Solas” come from the Protestant Reformation of the 1500’s. The five “solas” or “only alones” are, 1) sola scriptura (bible alone) 2) sola fide (faith alone) 3) sola gratia (grace alone) 4) solus Christus (Christ alone) 5) soli Deo gloria (to the glory of God alone).

The Reformers (Luther, Zwingly, Calvin, etc.) observed the corruption in Catholicism and set out to “reform” Catholicism back to it’s roots. The problem with reforming any denomination is that all denominations are inherently broken when they were created by man. It is a worthless goal to try to fix something that was broken when it was created. The Reformers were very exuberant in trying to reform Catholicism and ended up creating even more man-made denominations. The Reformation was an extreme overreaction to Catholicism which sent the Reformers to the other side of the spectrum instead of into the bible. Both sides are wrong since neither uses the bible alone to preach the simple gospel of Christ all the while claiming that they use the bible. Catholics generally claim the bible is not authoritative, and the Protestants claim that even obeying the commands of God will not save you. Protestants read bible verses like Eph 2:8 “ For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.” and determined that the works-based romish system was wrong because they did not preach salvation by grace through faith- and they add in the word “alone”. Catholicism does not teach the gospel plan of salvation of Peter’s sermon in Acts 2:36-38. (NOTE: Acts 2:36-38 is the world’s first-ever gospel sermon) The Protestant Reformers also do not preach the gospel plan of salvation of Peter’s sermon in Acts 2:36-38. Both groups have been explaining away God’s clear commands for hundreds of years, fighting one another, all the while the church of Christ of Acts 2 has remained on Earth as pure as when it was created by Jesus in AD 33 on the Day of Pentecost. God calls us to His Word and not to the far left or right of the Word. It is good to hate error, however error should draw us to the dead center of where God wants us which is in the bible and not in various groups not called by his Name (Catholicism, Lutheranism, Protestantism, Methodism, etc.) When we overreact to an idea we are drawn away from the bible to our own thoughts and feelings which replace God’s Word. We then try and find ways to make the bible fit our opinions instead of accepting Jesus teaching as written.

Jesus owns His church, Matt 16:18. He died to purchase it, Acts 20:28. Since He died to create the church, it goes by His Name in scripture, the church OF Christ, Rom 16:16. All other names such as catholic, calvin, methodist must be rejected having nothing to do with our salvation.

It is sad and unfortunate that Catholicism and Protestantism both use just a few verses to make their claim that they are the true church. Literature is CUMULATIVE. This means God expects to use all the bible when we study. When we study salvation, we are supposed to topically search the bible and look at all verses pertaining to salvation and assemble them all and determine what God has said on the topic. Literature including God’s Word uses much figurative language. We need good reading comprehension to understand any literature. We need to understand theme, context, and vocabulary, literal and figurative, among others. For example in Eph 2:8, Paul’s theme is different than in Romans, or in Luke’s writing of Acts. Eph 2:8 is not a recipe for salvation as it might sound and neither is John 3:16. Paul is not contradicting his other (or other apostles’) writing on salvation which includes hearing the right gospel preached, belief, public confession before many, repentance, and immersion for the remission of sins.

So what is Paul really saying in Eph 2:8? Sometimes when we write, we use one “umbrella” idea to stand for all the other ideas we’ve previously spoken or written about. This is called synecdoche. In Eph 2:8 when Paul says grace through faith, he wants you to remember everything else he’s written on salvation, too. Eph 2:8 is one part of salvation that stands for the whole pattern. If we choose to use Eph 2:8 alone, then we’ve failed in our reading comprehension of the whole bible. We fail because we ignore all the other things Paul said on salvation. Failing to assemble all Paul said on salvation and using one or two sentences will cause us to disobey Jesus pattern of salvation and we will end up in Hell for eternity. So it is critical that we have good reading comprehension. The 5 solas must be compared to the bible to determine if they are godly or not. If not, quickly reject them and replace them with the bible.

Bible alone is scriptural since the bible is all we have. Without the bible we’d know nothing of the commands of God. The canon was complete before 100 AD based on the earmarks of inspiration and the work of God. Creeds, manuals, traditions, and other man-made pretended authority must be rejected since they aren’t inspired. Only the 66 books we have today are inspired because that’s all that God chose to inspire. God is intelligent enough to make His will known to humanity.

Grace or faith alone is not biblical because no writer ever said we’re saved by grace or faith “alone”. The only place in the bible where the two words “faith” and “alone” appear together are in James 2:24. I’ll let the reader determine whether this passage says we’re saved by faith alone or not. James 2:24, “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” Faith alone has been preached loud and hard for 600 years so most people now believe it. The world claims all we need to do is believe. But claiming isn't proving. There are many other passages that talk about salvation and they mention belief, public confession before many, repentance, and immersion for the remission of sins. Those who have actually taken the time to study the bible topically will reject “faith alone”.

Christ alone is an incomplete thought. Some say, “Hey Jesus died for you” and seem to mean that just because Jesus died, we’re all automatically saved. Christ alone does not carry with it the five points that Jesus commanded us to obey to be saved (Hebrews 5:8-9).
To the glory of God alone is only biblical if we are obedient to the gospel. The New Testament repeatedly teaches that we must obey Jesus commands if we want to be saved. We cannot glorify God while refusing to obey Him.

Note that man didn't come up with the plan of salvation - none of it, not even one little part. It all came directly from God. It doesn't belong to man. It was given to us by God that we with tender hearts might take part in them to please God. God does His part, we do our part. We have free will and God promises to do His part if, and only if, we do ours. Make no mistake, each of the five steps of salvation save us, however we are not saved until we are immersed for the correct reason. Note this passage.

"...In whom ye were also circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands, in the putting off of the body of the flesh, in the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with him in BAPTISM, wherein ye were also raised with him through faith in THE WORKING OF GOD, who raised him from the dead." Colossians 2:11-12

These are God's commands which God GIVES man to participate in to be saved: Hear, Believe, Repent, Confess, and be Immersed for the remission of our sins FOR salvation. So let's not fight God or look for loopholes out of his commands. Just obey the pattern He gave us. God does the heavy lifting. We just obey.

Agape,
Mark
It's kind of strange to say but, generally speaking, your basic soteriology is actually rather "Romish".
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
33,437
20,734
Orlando, Florida
✟1,508,866.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
It's kind of strange to say but, generally speaking, your basic soteriology is actually rather "Romish".

The Campbellite movement can be like that. It is often "Protestant" only in the sense of historical origins.
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
39,532
29,040
Pacific Northwest
✟812,641.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Refor


---- Crypto, how do you feel about reforming something that was broken when it was created in AD 350?

Christ's Church wasn't created in AD 350.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

Monk Brendan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2016
4,636
2,875
74
Phoenix, Arizona
Visit site
✟339,430.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Melkite Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Catholics generally claim the bible is not authoritative,

Since when? All of the Catholics that I know (And I know quite a few) view the Bible as authoritative.
 
Upvote 0

CObondservant

Active Member
Aug 26, 2017
43
20
56
Colorado
✟24,466.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Since when? All of the Catholics that I know (And I know quite a few) view the Bible as authoritative.

The bible claims all authority, not some. Creeds were never part of the original acts 2 church.
 
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
30,304
13,961
73
✟422,890.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Since when? All of the Catholics that I know (And I know quite a few) view the Bible as authoritative.

This is a bit ticklish, as I am sure you probably know. In Catholicism the Bible is part and parcel of Holy Tradition. This Tradition includes much more than the Bible and the Bible is given equal weight, at best, within the Tradition. There are many doctrines within Catholicism which are not contained in the Bible but stem from Tradition. The ultimate determination of doctrine in Catholicism is not the Bible itself.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: CObondservant
Upvote 0

Ignatius the Kiwi

Dissident
Mar 2, 2013
8,997
4,735
✟357,982.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
You agree with Sola scriptura and say the canon was established in 100AD. Where is your evidence of God divinely inspiring a 66 book canon at or before this date?

also what Catholic and Protestant works have read to reach the conclusion that both only base their views on a few snippets of scripture and do not read the entirety of it? There are more books than could fit in my house from each side alone that shows it's dedication to learning the scripture. It can be hard to accept but the fact is each side exhaustively reads the scripture and yet they reach different conclusions. You say neither reads the bible alone but then again no one truly reads the bible alone as their sole source and ultimate authority, since we are all influenced by ideas outside of the scripture that inform our reading of it.
 
Upvote 0

Ignatius the Kiwi

Dissident
Mar 2, 2013
8,997
4,735
✟357,982.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
There is zero ways to read the bible, understand it, obey it, and then not teach it. "Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?"

So we don't need anything else except the bible to understand the bible?
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,630
4,676
Hudson
✟344,402.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Im not familiar w/the prot veiws you have posted. They all say we're saved by faith alone. When God says immersion in water washes away sins when one has been taught correctly, believes, confesses, repents - this is salvation. There are no other examples


Again, it is important to keep in mind that the Five Solas are summary statements that should be correctly understood in light of everything else that was said on the topic, so I recommend this link for a few quotes:

Is Luther really the originator of "We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone"?

Every example of saving faith in Hebrews 11 is also example of obedience to God's commands, so likewise baptism, belief, confession, and repentance are all acts of faith. It is not the actions themselves that save us, but rather we are saved by the faith that requires us to take those actions.
 
Upvote 0

Mountainmike

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Nov 2, 2016
4,818
1,644
67
Northern uk
✟665,571.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
That post is completely false premise.

Sola scriptura is totally false and easily provable so. All the rest of the solas emanate from that false premise - so I will not bother addressing the rest.

Sola scriptura is Logically false.

You can define sola scriptura how you like and whatever definition ( or modification you use) is demonstrable as a falsehood by simple logic.

If the prime truth you hold is that "all that is (necessary) truth is in scripture", then for that statement to be logically true, scripture must actually say so, and contain that truth to contain all truth and it does not! Nowhere! So it omits what you regard the prime truth!
In fact scripture refutes it completely where it says " the pillar and foundation of truth is the church" ie not scripture at all.

Sola scriptura is historically false.

Because there was no new testament canon for several hundred years, indeed the first canons were deemed heretical (eg marcions)

Apart from which, it is only in recent times that most could read, and only in the last century that most could afford to own a bible.

Jesus did not give us a book. He gave us apostles to hand on the truth. Thats why Paul says "hold true to tradition we taughtyou by word of mouth and letter". Tradition was the means of passage of faith.

And we see it in early fathers writings.
For example in Ignatiurs' writings he and Polycarp taught by John the apostle we see a liturgical sacramental church of the real presence only if performed by succession bishops or appointees. So tradition shows the meaning to scripture.

Sola scriptura is a denial of the (scripturallly provable )authority of the church

The power to "bind and loose" on doctrine by the successors of apostles - the early fathers acting in councils. Indeed the same power given to successors of Peter but very rarely used.

Without that authority, those councils or fathers acting infallibly you would have no canon or creed. You would have no new testament. Study their writings to find out what it means!

The catholic church is not a denomination. It is the only church for a milennium, till reformationists started to create their man manmade traditions of the five solas, confessionas and so on.

And allowing the priesthoodof believers to decide their own interpretation has been an unmitigated disaster. Even luther said it - and regretted having opened pandoras box!
"There are as many doctrines as heads."
"It is the greatest scandal - every milkmaid now has their own doctrine"

On every aspect of doctrine protestants disgagree with each other holding mutually exclusive beliefs...100000 permutations and counting!

All The result of all divorcing tradition and authority (ie meaning) from scripture.
And the prime falsehood of sola scriptura


The “Five Solas” of denominationalism. Are They Scriptural?

The “Five Solas” come from the Protestant Reformation of the 1500’s. The five “solas” or “only alones” are, 1) sola scriptura (bible alone) 2) sola fide (faith alone) 3) sola gratia (grace alone) 4) solus Christus (Christ alone) 5) soli Deo gloria (to the glory of God alone).

The Reformers (Luther, Zwingly, Calvin, etc.) observed the corruption in Catholicism and set out to “reform” Catholicism back to it’s roots. The problem with reforming any denomination is that all denominations are inherently broken when they were created by man. It is a worthless goal to try to fix something that was broken when it was created. The Reformers were very exuberant in trying to reform Catholicism and ended up creating even more man-made denominations. The Reformation was an extreme overreaction to Catholicism which sent the Reformers to the other side of the spectrum instead of into the bible. Both sides are wrong since neither uses the bible alone to preach the simple gospel of Christ all the while claiming that they use the bible. Catholics generally claim the bible is not authoritative, and the Protestants claim that even obeying the commands of God will not save you. Protestants read bible verses like Eph 2:8 “ For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.” and determined that the works-based romish system was wrong because they did not preach salvation by grace through faith- and they add in the word “alone”. Catholicism does not teach the gospel plan of salvation of Peter’s sermon in Acts 2:36-38. (NOTE: Acts 2:36-38 is the world’s first-ever gospel sermon) The Protestant Reformers also do not preach the gospel plan of salvation of Peter’s sermon in Acts 2:36-38. Both groups have been explaining away God’s clear commands for hundreds of years, fighting one another, all the while the church of Christ of Acts 2 has remained on Earth as pure as when it was created by Jesus in AD 33 on the Day of Pentecost. God calls us to His Word and not to the far left or right of the Word. It is good to hate error, however error should draw us to the dead center of where God wants us which is in the bible and not in various groups not called by his Name (Catholicism, Lutheranism, Protestantism, Methodism, etc.) When we overreact to an idea we are drawn away from the bible to our own thoughts and feelings which replace God’s Word. We then try and find ways to make the bible fit our opinions instead of accepting Jesus teaching as written.

Jesus owns His church, Matt 16:18. He died to purchase it, Acts 20:28. Since He died to create the church, it goes by His Name in scripture, the church OF Christ, Rom 16:16. All other names such as catholic, calvin, methodist must be rejected having nothing to do with our salvation.

It is sad and unfortunate that Catholicism and Protestantism both use just a few verses to make their claim that they are the true church. Literature is CUMULATIVE. This means God expects to use all the bible when we study. When we study salvation, we are supposed to topically search the bible and look at all verses pertaining to salvation and assemble them all and determine what God has said on the topic. Literature including God’s Word uses much figurative language. We need good reading comprehension to understand any literature. We need to understand theme, context, and vocabulary, literal and figurative, among others. For example in Eph 2:8, Paul’s theme is different than in Romans, or in Luke’s writing of Acts. Eph 2:8 is not a recipe for salvation as it might sound and neither is John 3:16. Paul is not contradicting his other (or other apostles’) writing on salvation which includes hearing the right gospel preached, belief, public confession before many, repentance, and immersion for the remission of sins.

So what is Paul really saying in Eph 2:8? Sometimes when we write, we use one “umbrella” idea to stand for all the other ideas we’ve previously spoken or written about. This is called synecdoche. In Eph 2:8 when Paul says grace through faith, he wants you to remember everything else he’s written on salvation, too. Eph 2:8 is one part of salvation that stands for the whole pattern. If we choose to use Eph 2:8 alone, then we’ve failed in our reading comprehension of the whole bible. We fail because we ignore all the other things Paul said on salvation. Failing to assemble all Paul said on salvation and using one or two sentences will cause us to disobey Jesus pattern of salvation and we will end up in Hell for eternity. So it is critical that we have good reading comprehension. The 5 solas must be compared to the bible to determine if they are godly or not. If not, quickly reject them and replace them with the bible.

Bible alone is scriptural since the bible is all we have. Without the bible we’d know nothing of the commands of God. The canon was complete before 100 AD based on the earmarks of inspiration and the work of God. Creeds, manuals, traditions, and other man-made pretended authority must be rejected since they aren’t inspired. Only the 66 books we have today are inspired because that’s all that God chose to inspire. God is intelligent enough to make His will known to humanity.

Grace or faith alone is not biblical because no writer ever said we’re saved by grace or faith “alone”. The only place in the bible where the two words “faith” and “alone” appear together are in James 2:24. I’ll let the reader determine whether this passage says we’re saved by faith alone or not. James 2:24, “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” Faith alone has been preached loud and hard for 600 years so most people now believe it. The world claims all we need to do is believe. But claiming isn't proving. There are many other passages that talk about salvation and they mention belief, public confession before many, repentance, and immersion for the remission of sins. Those who have actually taken the time to study the bible topically will reject “faith alone”.

Christ alone is an incomplete thought. Some say, “Hey Jesus died for you” and seem to mean that just because Jesus died, we’re all automatically saved. Christ alone does not carry with it the five points that Jesus commanded us to obey to be saved (Hebrews 5:8-9).
To the glory of God alone is only biblical if we are obedient to the gospel. The New Testament repeatedly teaches that we must obey Jesus commands if we want to be saved. We cannot glorify God while refusing to obey Him.

Note that man didn't come up with the plan of salvation - none of it, not even one little part. It all came directly from God. It doesn't belong to man. It was given to us by God that we with tender hearts might take part in them to please God. God does His part, we do our part. We have free will and God promises to do His part if, and only if, we do ours. Make no mistake, each of the five steps of salvation save us, however we are not saved until we are immersed for the correct reason. Note this passage.

"...In whom ye were also circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands, in the putting off of the body of the flesh, in the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with him in BAPTISM, wherein ye were also raised with him through faith in THE WORKING OF GOD, who raised him from the dead." Colossians 2:11-12

These are God's commands which God GIVES man to participate in to be saved: Hear, Believe, Repent, Confess, and be Immersed for the remission of our sins FOR salvation. So let's not fight God or look for loopholes out of his commands. Just obey the pattern He gave us. God does the heavy lifting. We just obey.

Agape,
Mark
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0