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That's why it's called grace.

Discussion in 'Baptists' started by Hammster, Apr 16, 2015.

  1. Skala

    Skala I'm a Saint. Not because of me, but because of Him

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    BUT WHAT DID HE SAY BEFORE AND AFTER THIS!??!?!?!??!
     
  2. PrincetonGuy

    PrincetonGuy Veteran

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    These conclusions based upon a grammatically correct interpretation of Titus 2:11 have already been refuted earlier in this thread.

    God’s grace does something when we allow it to through faith. Do you believe in the doctrine of justification by faith, or do you believe in the doctrine of justification by election?
     
  3. PrincetonGuy

    PrincetonGuy Veteran

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    Nothing that Paul has said changes the basic rules of Greek or English grammar.
     
  4. Skala

    Skala I'm a Saint. Not because of me, but because of Him

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    Nobody has argued for grammer, they've argued for context.

    Observe:

    "Everyone sit down!"

    A teacher says this to her classroom of students.

    By your reasoning(?), the students should understand that the teacher wants everyone in the entire universe, both past present and future, to sit down.

    Observe:

    "I beat my wife last night"

    You heard this statement as you walked past two men talking.

    But what you didn't hear was what was said before and after:

    We play chess all the time in the evenings
    I beat my wife last night
    It was a close match.

    By your reasoning(?), it doesn't matter what was said before or after, it is plain that the man physically abused his wife last night.
     
  5. Hammster

    Hammster Sometimes nothin can be a real cool hand. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    It does. But it doesn't fit with your theology. So that would explain all of the distractions with Greek rules.

    But to make it fit, you have to say "oh, but it's not universalism because people need to believe", even though Paul doesn't mention faith here. Or in the next chapter where he talks about regeneration. You have to assume it.

    You would be better off just taking the text at face value instead of flirting with universalism, making a left turn at the last second.
     
  6. Hammster

    Hammster Sometimes nothin can be a real cool hand. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    And again, you have to add something to the text that's not there.
     
  7. Skala

    Skala I'm a Saint. Not because of me, but because of Him

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    Exactly!

    Paul clearly says that this grace he's describing "brings salvation". Then he says it "trains us to renounce worldliness and live godly lives"

    So he's not talkinga bout a potential salvation, he's talking about a grace that results in these things. Thus he can't be tallking about each individual in the human race or all people would:

    1) Be saved (because he says he verse brings salvation, not brings potential salvation)
    2) Renounce worldliness (because that's what this grace, which comes to people, does. Not potentially, but actually)
    3) Live godly lives (not potentially, but actually)

    Not only does PG have to insert faith into the equation, he has to also insert the idea that each of the other things Paul mentions only means potentially.

    It's 100% pure eisegesis (reading something into the text on the page that isn't there)
     
  8. PrincetonGuy

    PrincetonGuy Veteran

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    Yes, we do—but that is far better than breaking the rules of Greek and English grammar to change the text.
     
  9. Hammster

    Hammster Sometimes nothin can be a real cool hand. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Thanks for admitting that you need eisegesis to make your view fit.

    And the only one breaking any rules is you by ignoring context. Your view doesn't fit with what Paul says before and after. I've shown how a correct view flows from start to finish through the chapter.
     
  10. Skala

    Skala I'm a Saint. Not because of me, but because of Him

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    Nobody is changing the text.

    We are saying no more and no less than the text says.

    You are doing both.

    You are adding to the text (your own admission), and also subtracting from the text (making the things Paul mentioned only potentials, not actuals)
     
  11. Hammster

    Hammster Sometimes nothin can be a real cool hand. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Maybe Greek rules allow for that. ;)
     
  12. PrincetonGuy

    PrincetonGuy Veteran

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    How low are you willing to crawl and slither to defend an interpretation that is grammatically indefensible? For over 10 years I have vigorously opposed the doctrine of Universalism in my CF posts, and I have vigorously opposed the doctrine of Universalism in this very thread. Moreover, I was very open and honest in admitting that Titus 2:11, severed from its immediate and fuller context, could be interpreted to be teaching universalism, but I ALSO explained that Paul’s Epistle to Titus was not written to a stranger; it was written to Paul’s friend and brother in Christ Titus who already knew that our personal salvation from sin is realized only as we accept it by faith. In spite of knowing from your posts how you dishonestly and for your own personal amusement manipulate the words of others to radically distort their statements to their detriment, I was very open and honest in admitting that to correctly understand Titus 2:11, it is necessary to add to the text the concept of salvation through faith that Paul teaches in his epistles. This is not “eisegesis,” it is sound exegesis.

    How many falsehoods are you will to tell? As I posted above, Paul says, “For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,” not “For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all these types of people.” In the Greek New Testament, the word ἄνθρωπος refers back to a person who has been mentioned earlier in the narrative in only five verses: Matt. 12:13; Mark 3:5, 5:8; John 4:50; and Acts 19:16. In all five of these verses, the word ἄνθρωπος is immediately preceded by the definite article as it MUST be when referring back to a person who has been mentioned earlier. In Titus 2:11, the word ἄνθρωπος is NOT immediately preceded by the definite article and it CANNOT be referring back to a person or persons who have been mentioned earlier. The rule in English grammar is very similar, and in all five of these verses, the word ‘man’ is immediately preceded by the definite article. Therefore, your interpretation CANNOT possibly be correct, and the theological implications of Paul’s words MUST be interpreted in a manner that is consistent with the grammar.

    The basic rules of Greek and English grammar that your posts are ignoring are not my “view”—they are the basic rules of Greek and English grammar.

    The truth is that your view, from start to finish, ignores and violates the basic rules of Greek and English grammar as detailed above.
     
  13. Hammster

    Hammster Sometimes nothin can be a real cool hand. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Let's say you are correct, for sake of argument. What is Paul's point in bringing this up? The "for" has to relate to the previous verses in some way.
     
  14. PrincetonGuy

    PrincetonGuy Veteran

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    In Titus 2:1-10, Paul gives instructions to Titus regarding several classes of people—classes of people that include neither himself nor Titus. In v. 11, he makes the critical point that “the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,” including himself and Titus, instructing them too to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of their great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.
     
  15. Hammster

    Hammster Sometimes nothin can be a real cool hand. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Okay. So you don't really have an answer. You could have just said so.
     
  16. PrincetonGuy

    PrincetonGuy Veteran

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    Shame on you!
     
  17. Hammster

    Hammster Sometimes nothin can be a real cool hand. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Why? I'm not the one who pretended to answer a question. If you'd like to try again, be my guest.
     
  18. twin1954

    twin1954 Baptist by the Bible

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    PG, you are ignoring the context of the sentence in order to focus on the construction of the sentence. There are other ways to read and understand the verse in its context. The actual subject is the grace of God and the verb is has appeared. The word bringing salvation is an adjective and is in the nominative which agrees with the noun/subject and describes what the grace of God does.The words all men are in the dative which shows a personal interest in the subject but they are the indirect object of the verb appeared.

    Now we both know that the word all must have a qualifier. All men in this case is determined by the context of the surrounding sentences. Paul isn't speaking about every man but to those to whom the saving grace of God has appeared who are taught to live soberly, righteously and godly in this present world looking for the blessed hope Christ Jesus.

    For you to apply the sentence as though it stands alone is as poor grammar and syntax as you accuse others of.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2015
  19. PrincetonGuy

    PrincetonGuy Veteran

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    This is a blatantly false statement. I have studied the context with great care and discussed it and its implications in this thread, including in my very accurate answer to a question by Hammster:

    There are two possible interpretations of Titus 2:11.

    “For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,”

    Or

    “For the grace of God has appeared to all men, bringing salvation”

    So far in this thread, only the first of these two interpretations have been discussed. The second is found in the KJV which departed from the interpretation found in both the Bishops’ Bible and the Geneva Bible. For now, we can continue discussing the first of these two interpretations.

    These statements are not true. As I posted in posted above,

    As I have posted above, basic rules of both Greek and English prove that you are severely mistaken.

    I am NOT interpreting the sentence out the context of the chapter, and I am interpreting the expression πασιν ανθρωποις in the same manner in which it is used in ALL occurrences of it the New Testament (see post #65).
     
  20. Hammster

    Hammster Sometimes nothin can be a real cool hand. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    It wasn't an accurate answer. All you did was recap the chapter. I did not as you to do that.
     
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