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That's why it's called grace.

Discussion in 'Baptists' started by Hammster, Apr 16, 2015.

  1. Skala

    Skala I'm a Saint. Not because of me, but because of Him

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    So all people means all people?

    You can't use the definition of the word as part of the definition.

    The fact remains you can't prove that it means each and every individual, as opposed to "everyone of a given group"
     
  2. PrincetonGuy

    PrincetonGuy Veteran

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    It was proven in post #39 of this thread. The Greek adjective πᾶς in Titus 2:11 modifies one and only one group—human beings. It does NOT modify any subset of people. The ONLY possible meaning in the Greek text is ‘all human beings’.
     
  3. Hammster

    Hammster Sometimes nothin can be a real cool hand. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    We know it's human beings. The point is pas could mean every human or all types of humans. The context is what dictates the meaning.
     
  4. PrincetonGuy

    PrincetonGuy Veteran

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    The Greek adjective πᾶς in Titus 2:11 modifies one and only one group—human beings. It does NOT modify any subset of people. Moreover, πασιν ανθρωποις DOES mean ‘every human being’ and, therefore, it DOES NOT and CANNOT mean ‘all types of humans’. This verse shoots Calvin’s doctrine of election (not to be confused with the biblical doctrine of election) in the heart and not just in the foot; and that is the ONLY reason why some people have insisted that the verse does not mean what it so very plainly means. I realize that the majority is not always right, but the interpretation that I am advocating for is the interpretation held by the very large majority of Christians—and especially those Christians who study the New Testament in its original language.
     
  5. PrincetonGuy

    PrincetonGuy Veteran

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    The same Greek construction is found in the following verses,

    Acts 22:15. ‘For you will be a witness for Him to all men of what you have seen and heard.

    Rom. 5:12. Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

    Rom. 5:18. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men

    Rom. 12:17. Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men.
    18. If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men.

    1 Cor. 7:7. Yet I wish that all men were even as I myself am. However, each man has his own gift from God, one in this manner, and another in that.

    1 Cor. 15:19. If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.

    2 Cor. 3:2. You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men;

    Phil. 4:5. Let your gentle spirit be known to all men. The Lord is near.

    1 Thes. 2:15. who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all men,

    1 Tim. 2:4. who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

    1 Tim. 4:10. For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

    Titus 2:11. For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

    Acts 22:15 and 2 Cor. 3:2 use the word ‘all’ in a hyperbolic sense, but none of the verses use the word ‘all’ to mean “all types of humans”. 1 Tim. 4:10 is quite interesting to me.
     
  6. Hammster

    Hammster Sometimes nothin can be a real cool hand. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Nobody said it modified a subset of people. Pas itself can mean all types of anything it's linked to. That's why you need context. The context doesn't support your Arminianism.
     
  7. Hammster

    Hammster Sometimes nothin can be a real cool hand. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    And context dictates which definition of all to use. Thanks for that.
     
  8. Awaken4Christ

    Awaken4Christ Guest

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    PrincetonGuy,

    You admit that the verse by itself sounds like universalism, and yet you suggest that it goes against a reformed interpretation; that sounds like a contradiction. You have to go to other verses to make the case for your free will theology.

    It is only fair then to allow the opposing view to draw from other texts. As has been stated before, the verse does not indicate the level of man's ability to choose salvation. If the "plain reading" can come to more than one meaning...it calls for further investigation doesn't it?

    Clearly this verse isn't the ultimate anti-calvinist missile you make it out to be.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 23, 2015
  9. PrincetonGuy

    PrincetonGuy Veteran

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    This is nothing but mumbo jumbo. In this context, ‘mumbo jumbo’ means ‘gibberish’ which in this context means ‘unintelligible or meaningless language.’
     
  10. PrincetonGuy

    PrincetonGuy Veteran

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    No, the grammar (as has already been explained and documented) rather than the context determines the meaning of ‘all’ in Titus 2:11.
     
  11. Hammster

    Hammster Sometimes nothin can be a real cool hand. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    I understand it.
     
  12. Hammster

    Hammster Sometimes nothin can be a real cool hand. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    No, it's the context. Reading this list of people in the first ten verses, can they be described as all (types) of people? Yes. Does the language in v. 11 support that? Yes.
     
  13. PrincetonGuy

    PrincetonGuy Veteran

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    How?

    I am not attempting to make a case for free-will theology.

    ?

    Where was such a thing stated? Where does Titus 2:11 say anything about man’s ability to choose salvation?

    The “plain reading” of “all men” in Titus 2:11 does not have more than one meaning—that is why it is the ‘plain meaning’.

    I neither said nor implied that Titus 2:11 is the ultimate anti-Calvinist missile. Indeed, it is only one of several hundred verses in the Bible (mostly in the New Testament) that one has to ‘re-explain’ in order to give it a meaning that supports rather than refutes Calvinism. Let us not forget that the birth of Calvinism was not the consequence of new information resulting in a more accurate exegesis of the Bible; the birth of Calvinism was the consequence of a new and seriously faulty concept of the sovereignty of God resulting in ‘The Five Points of Calvinism’ (as they are known today) and the need to make up new and absurd interpretations of several hundred verses in the Bible that had been correctly understood for 1,500 years.

    Furthermore, let us not forget that among scholars of the Greek New Testament publishing today in peer-reviewed academic biblical journals the meaning of “all men” in Titus 2:11 is not an issue because the meaning is obvious to them (as it should be). The issues are as indicated by the footnotes in the NRSV:

    11. For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all, {Or [has appeared to all, bringing salvation]}
    12. training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and in the present age to live lives that are self-controlled, upright, and godly,
    13. while we wait for the blessed hope and the manifestation of the glory of our great God and Savior, {Or [of the great God and our Savior]} Jesus Christ.

    Note: The NRSV is a gender-neutral translation so it omits the word ‘men’ in v. 11.
     
  14. PrincetonGuy

    PrincetonGuy Veteran

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    Why are you continuing to reassert these things which are incorrect?

    Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, (NASB, 1995)

    In order for your interpretation to be correct, it would be necessary for the verse to read, “For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all these people,” but it does not! Moreover, such a reading would not make sense because v. 12 reads,

    Titus 2:12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, (NASB, 1995)

    and the ‘us’ is not grammatically included in the ‘these people’. In other words, your interpretation is not grammatically possible.
     
  15. Hammster

    Hammster Sometimes nothin can be a real cool hand. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    It would only need to be "these people" if Paul was listing specific people. Let's look at what he says.

    Titus 2:1-10 But as for you, speak the things which are fitting for sound doctrine. Older men are to be temperate, dignified, sensible, sound in faith, in love, in perseverance. Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored. Likewise urge the young men to be sensible; in all things show yourself to be an example of good deeds, with purity in doctrine, dignified, sound in speech which is beyond reproach, so that the opponent will be put to shame, having nothing bad to say about us. Urge bondslaves to be subject to their own masters in everything, to be well-pleasing, not argumentative, not pilfering, but showing all good faith so that they will adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in every respect.

    So what types of people do we have? Older women. Younger women. Older men. Younger men. Bondslaves.

    Then he says:

    Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.

    So he lists these TYPES of people and the instruction to give them. Then he says "For (because) the grace of God has appeared to all people (not just a select type, but all types)". And he lists what this grace does; brings salvation (not just potential) and instruction.

    If your view was correct, then every single person would be purified from every lawless deed, and be a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds. God's grace actually DOES something.
     
  16. twin1954

    twin1954 Baptist by the Bible

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    :thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
  17. Skala

    Skala I'm a Saint. Not because of me, but because of Him

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    Home run.
     
  18. PrincetonGuy

    PrincetonGuy Veteran

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    No, the expression “all men” means exactly the same thing in all of these verses. In none of these verses does the context influence the meaning of the expression “all men”. This is just as true as the expression “πασιν ανθρωποις” in the original Greek. Acts 22:15 and 2 Cor. 3:2 use the word ‘all’ in a hyperbolic sense, and the sense is hyperbolic for the very reason that ‘all men’ means ‘all men’.
     
  19. Hammster

    Hammster Sometimes nothin can be a real cool hand. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    They might mean every single person (which I don't think is the case). But it's the context that would dictate it's usage. This is pretty basic stuff.
     
  20. PrincetonGuy

    PrincetonGuy Veteran

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    Paul says, “For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,” not “For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all these types of people.” In the Greek New Testament, the word ἄνθρωπος refers back to a person who has been mentioned earlier in the narrative in only five verses: Matt. 12:13; Mark 3:5, 5:8; John 4:50; and Acts 19:16. In all five of these verses, the word ἄνθρωπος is immediately preceded by the definite article as it MUST be when referring back to a person who has been mentioned earlier. In Titus 2:11, the word ἄνθρωπος is NOT immediately preceded by the definite article and it CANNOT be referring back to a person or persons who have been mentioned earlier. The rule in English grammar is very similar, and in all five of these verses, the word ‘man’ is immediately preceded by the definite article. Therefore, your interpretation CANNOT possibly be correct, and the theological implications of Paul’s words MUST be interpreted in a manner that is consistent with the grammar.
     
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