That's why it's called grace.

Hammster

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No name one person God did not give a chance to? I forget the name of the people but with Jonah he was sent to preach to them but he did not want them to repent but God gave them a chance and they did repent. The Babylon king was given a number of warnings and chance by God. But I think the most compelling is satan was even given a chance in Heaven, being dressed in splendid clothing and adored at first. I think it is very much supported that God gives everyone a chance.

But about the people in Nineva that perished before Jonah showed up? Where was their chance?
 
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Bluelion

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But about the people in Nineva that perished before Jonah showed up? Where was their chance?

sorry friend i just don't have the strength to debate with you these days. But is it justice to give a man a gun and then arrest him for breaking the law of carrying a gun? I know God to be a God of Justice too.
 
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Hammster

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sorry friend i just don't have the strength to debate with you these days. But is it justice to give a man a gun and then arrest him for breaking the law of carrying a gun? I know God to be a God of Justice too.

It would appear that you think our sin is the equivalent of God giving us a gun.
 
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Hammster

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Grace received from God results in obedience to God. Faith without works is dead.

That's nice. Not sure of the relevance to the discussion, but okay.
 
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SaintJoeNow

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That's nice. Not sure of the relevance to the discussion, but okay.

It's why it's called grace....it gives you the desire and ability to obey God.

That grace is available to everybody in the world, including the people in Africa who have never heard the gospel. ok? It was available to the Ninevites and the lost tribes of Africa before Jonah and before Timbuktu.
 
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Hammster

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It's why it's called grace....it gives you the desire and ability to obey God.

That grace is available to everybody in the world, including the people in Africa who have never heard the gospel. ok? It was available to the Ninevites and the lost tribes of Africa before Jonah and before Timbuktu.

If it's available to everyone, then according to you, everyone would have the desire to obey God.
 
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SaintJoeNow

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If it's available to everyone, then according to you, everyone would have the desire to obey God.

If it's not available, it can't be received, can it? Wouldn't it be legalism if they desire to obey God, so they would have to burn in Hell because the grace of God is not given to them?
 
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Hammster

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If it's not available, it can't be received, can it? Wouldn't it be legalism if they desire to obey God, so they would have to burn in Hell because the grace of God is not given to them?

You said "gives you the desire and ability to obey God." And you said "grace is available to everybody in the world."

So according to you, that means everyone in the world has the desire and ability to obey God. Since repentance is a command, that would lead to the conclusion that everyone must be saved.
 
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Skala

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That's a very interesting concept.
Part of me understands it and another part of me says WAIT, that's not fair!
We are all born into sin. But then again, I don't know about you but I never asked to be born. It wasn't a choice. Not for any of us. So being born into sin wasn't my choice either. Nor is the one who hasn't heard. :confused:

I'm comforted that Jesus wants us to spread the gospel to all corners of the earth and that he won't return until ALL have had a change to hear.
That makes me feel more burdened to share my faith.

Here is just a random thought I had...well actually my friends and I had it together. Do you suppose it's possible that Jesus somehow makes himself known to the person dying who hasn't known or understood the gospel so that they can have a chance? I believe Jesus is love and compassion and mercy and Grace. I believe nothing is possible with God.
I know there is nothing in scripture to support my random thought but it seems to fit Gods character quite well.

One thing you must realize (and I know it is difficult to do so - it was for me, too) is that it's not wrong for God to not want to save someone.
 
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Job8

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"God owes no one salvation. He can offer it to whomever He wishes. That's why it's called grace."
And because it is God's grace -- and not man's distortion of grace -- that God offers salvation to "whosoever" will receive it. In other words, all are invited to partake of the water of life freely (Rev 22:17). That's the truth which should have been presented, but was deliberately suppressed by Gregory. Some people hate the thought that God's grace has "appeared to ALL men" (Tit 3:11).
 
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Hammster

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And because it is God's grace -- and not man's distortion of grace -- that God offers salvation to "whosoever" will receive it. In other words, all are invited to partake of the water of life freely (Rev 22:17). That's the truth which should have been presented, but was deliberately suppressed by Gregory. Some people hate the thought that God's grace has "appeared to ALL men" (Tit 3:11).

Taking a part of a verse out of context is not a good way to attempt to support your view. Even if it's in bold.
 
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Job8

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Taking a part of a verse out of context is not a good way to attempt to support your view. Even if it's in bold.
How can it be "out of context" when the subject is God's grace and the verse is also about God's grace? Nice try.
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; (Titus 2:11,12 my previous post had a typo as 3:11).
 
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Hammster

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How can it be "out of context" when the subject is God's grace and the verse is also about God's grace? Nice try.
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; (Titus 2:11,12 my previous post had a typo as 3:11).

And you've made my point. You initially said grace appears to all men (not sure why "all" was all caps). But that's not what the verse actually says, when you quote it. When you quote it, grace actually does something. It brings salvation. And since we aren't universalists, we have to determine what "all" means. Does it mean each and every person? Obviously not, since we aren't universalists. So, can we determine what it means in context? Yes. How? By looking at the previous 10 verses. What do we find? Paul describing various types of people. So, in context, "all" means all types, not each and every person.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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How can it be "out of context" when the subject is God's grace and the verse is also about God's grace? Nice try.
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; (Titus 2:11,12 my previous post had a typo as 3:11).

Dear Sir,

Surely Paul was mistaken! After all, if he was correct, Calvinism is a baloney sandwich. Who should we believe—Paul or Calvin? Paul was nothing but an apostle; Calvin was a successful politician. ;)
 
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Hammster

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Dear Sir,

Surely Paul was mistaken! After all, if he was correct, Calvinism is a baloney sandwich. Who should we believe—Paul or Calvin? Paul was nothing but an apostle; Calvin was a successful politician. ;)

We should believe Paul. But we should believe what he said, and not twist what he said to fit our theology. That's why context is important. It prevents us, when used properly, to take bits and pieces of a verse, paragraph, or chapter and reading into it what's not there.
 
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Skala

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Dear Sir,

Surely Paul was mistaken! After all, if he was correct, Calvinism is a baloney sandwich. Who should we believe—Paul or Calvin? Paul was nothing but an apostle; Calvin was a successful politician. ;)

This is unfair, PG, because being convinced that the doctrines known as Calvinism are true has nothing to do with what John Calvin himself taught. I've said it before and I'll say it again, many Calvinists have never read anything Calvin ever published.

They identify as Calvinists out of convenience and because they think TULIP is true, not because of anything John Calvin said or did.

Please remember that historically, TULIP came about long after Calvin was dead. In describing TULIP, the Synod of Dordt referenced Bible verses, not Calvin's writings.

Thus TULIP is based on the Bible. Paul wrote part of the Bible. Many of the teachings contained in TULIP are from Paul's words.
 
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Skala

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And you've made my point. You initially said grace appears to all men (not sure why "all" was all caps). But that's not what the verse actually says, when you quote it. When you quote it, grace actually does something. It brings salvation. And since we aren't universalists, we have to determine what "all" means. Does it mean each and every person? Obviously not, since we aren't universalists. So, can we determine what it means in context? Yes. How? By looking at the previous 10 verses. What do we find? Paul describing various types of people. So, in context, "all" means all types, not each and every person.

This.

The grace in the verse is described by Paul as having accomplished something. Arminians always fail to tackle this truth and answer any questions about it.

They'd rather the first section of the verse be understood in a vacuum. It's much easier to defend that way.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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And you've made my point. You initially said grace appears to all men (not sure why "all" was all caps). But that's not what the verse actually says, when you quote it. When you quote it, grace actually does something. It brings salvation. And since we aren't universalists, we have to determine what "all" means. Does it mean each and every person? Obviously not, since we aren't universalists. So, can we determine what it means in context? Yes. How? By looking at the previous 10 verses. What do we find? Paul describing various types of people. So, in context, "all" means all types, not each and every person.

Titus 2:11 επεφανη γαρ η χαρις του θεου σωτηριος πασιν ανθρωποις

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, (KJV)

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men, (ASV)

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men, (RSV)

Titus 2:11. For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all, (NRSV)

The Greek word πᾶς in this context can mean only one thing—‘all’. The Greek word ἄνθρωπος in this context can mean only one thing—‘human beings’. Whatever this verse is saying about the salvation of men, it is saying that it happened to ‘all human beings’. The question that needs to be resolved is, “What is this verse saying happened to all human beings?”
 
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PrincetonGuy

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We should believe Paul. But we should believe what he said, and not twist what he said to fit our theology. That's why context is important. It prevents us, when used properly, to take bits and pieces of a verse, paragraph, or chapter and reading into it what's not there.

Who in this thread is twisting out of shape the Greek word ἄνθρωπος and pretending that the context shows that it means “all types” of persons rather than “each and every person” in order to violently force the verse to conform to his theology—a theology that did not even exist until 1,500 years after Paul penned the verse!
 
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