That's why it's called grace.

Hammster

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Titus 2:11 επεφανη γαρ η χαρις του θεου σωτηριος πασιν ανθρωποις

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, (KJV)

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men, (ASV)

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men, (RSV)

Titus 2:11. For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all, (NRSV)

The Greek word πᾶς in this context can mean only one thing—‘all’. The Greek word ἄνθρωπος in this context can mean only one thing—‘human beings’. Whatever this verse is saying about the salvation of men, it is saying that it happened to ‘all human beings’. The question that needs to be resolved is, “What is this verse saying happened to all human beings?”

"All" can also mean all types. And since this grace actually does something (brings salvation, etc), it's not realistic to think that it's referring to every single person, unless you are a universalist. However, in the context of the chapter, where various types of people are listed, it does make sense that the proper definition of "all" is all types.
 
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Hammster

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Who in this thread is twisting out of shape the Greek word ἄνθρωπος and pretending that the context shows that it means “all types” of persons rather than “each and every person” in order to violently force the verse to conform to his theology—a theology that did not even exist until 1,500 years after Paul penned the verse!

I'm not pretending the context means all types. I'm demonstrating it. But if you want to hold to universalism, do so in the Unorthodox area.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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This.

The grace in the verse is described by Paul as having accomplished something. Arminians always fail to tackle this truth and answer any questions about it.

This is a blatant falsehood !

They'd rather the first section of the verse be understood in a vacuum. It's much easier to defend that way.

This is another blatant falsehood and there are hundreds if not thousands of CF posts that prove it is another blatant falsehood!
 
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PrincetonGuy

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I'm not pretending the context means all types. I'm demonstrating it.

The only thing that your post demonstrated is that you do not know what you are talking about. The Greek word ἄνθρωπος is never used in the New Testament or any other known Greek literature with such a meaning.

But if you want to hold to universalism, do so in the Unorthodox area.

Grow up! Shameful, cutting remarks do not belong in a Christian forum
 
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Hammster

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The only thing that your post demonstrated is that you do not know what you are talking about. The Greek word ἄνθρωπος is never used in the New Testament or any other known Greek literature with such a meaning.

So, you are saying that it's not remotely possible that Paul could mean all types of people? It's not grammatically possible?
 
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Job8

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I'm not pretending the context means all types. I'm demonstrating it. But if you want to hold to universalism, do so in the Unorthodox area.
PrincetonGuy is absolutely correct. Not only are you twisting the meaning of the words and pretending that the context means "all types" and the verse is "out of context" in relation to the topic (which is grace), but you are also deliberately and falsely accusing others of Universalism to divert attention from what you are trying to accomplish -- obfuscation and misrepresentation, or worse. And then to mention "the Unorthodox area" shows to what extent you will go to uphold your falsification of Scripture.

To assert that God offers His free gift of salvation -- eternal life -- to all men is NOT Universalism at all. It is the true Gospel, backed up by a multitude of Scriptures. Therefore what you are doing is despicable.

To be clear about Universalism. It is the false doctrine that all human beings will be ultimately saved, regardless of whether they have been regenerated. But the Bible teaches that only those who repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved (Jn 1:12,13; Acts 20:21). Those who do not believe the Gospel and reject the Lord Jesus [do not receive Him as their own Lord and Savior] will be eternally damned (Jn 3:36).
 
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PrincetonGuy

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PrincetonGuy is absolutely correct. Not only are you twisting the meaning of the words and pretending that the context means "all types" and the verse is "out of context" in relation to the topic (which is grace), but you are also deliberately and falsely accusing others of Universalism to divert attention from what you are trying to accomplish -- obfuscation and misrepresentation, or worse. And then to mention "the Unorthodox area" shows to what extent you will go to uphold your falsification of Scripture.

To assert that God offers His free gift of salvation -- eternal life -- to all men is NOT Universalism at all. It is the true Gospel, backed up by a multitude of Scriptures. Therefore what you are doing is despicable.

To be clear about Universalism. It is the false doctrine that all human beings will be ultimately saved, regardless of whether they have been regenerated. But the Bible teaches that only those who repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved (Jn 1:12,13; Acts 20:21). Those who do not believe the Gospel and reject the Lord Jesus [do not receive Him as their own Lord and Savior] will be eternally damned (Jn 3:36).

Amen. Enough is enough!
 
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Awaken4Christ

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PrincetonGuy,

If we take Titus 2:11 by itself without the context of bible or surrounding verses, doesn't it sound like Paul is preaching universalism?

"For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people"

Does Grace Bring Salvation for All People or does grace bring salvation for those who believe?

Or another possible problem... "grace has appeared "bringing salvation" for all people"
Does the bringing of salvation in anyway imply "bringing the ability" to be saved?
If you bring salvation for all people do you bring it in front of them to choose? Do you bring it for all to be saved?

Sally rebelled against God and was cast into hell. Did Jesus bring salvation for Sally?

Was Salvation brought for Judas?
 
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Skala

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The grace in the verse is described by Paul as having accomplished something.

This is a blatant falsehood !

11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age

This is a blatant falsehood !
This is a blatant falsehood !
This is a blatant falsehood !
This is a blatant falsehood !

Is it really a blatant falsehood that the grace Paul mentions in this verse is a specific grace that is described in a certain way and is described as having a specific goal and accomplishment?

This is a blatant falsehood !
This is a blatant falsehood !
This is a blatant falsehood !
 
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PrincetonGuy

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So, you are saying that it's not remotely possible that Paul could mean all types of people?

Yes, I am saying that.

It's not grammatically possible?

It is neither contextually nor lexically possible. The grammar in the verse is very difficult and is subject to interpretation—but NOT the interpretation for which you are advocating.
 
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Skala

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PrincetonGuy is absolutely correct. Not only are you twisting the meaning of the words and pretending that the context means "all types" and the verse is "out of context" in relation to the topic (which is grace), but you are also deliberately and falsely accusing others of Universalism to divert attention from what you are trying to accomplish -- obfuscation and misrepresentation, or worse. And then to mention "the Unorthodox area" shows to what extent you will go to uphold your falsification of Scripture.

To assert that God offers His free gift of salvation -- eternal life -- to all men is NOT Universalism at all. It is the true Gospel, backed up by a multitude of Scriptures. Therefore what you are doing is despicable.

To be clear about Universalism. It is the false doctrine that all human beings will be ultimately saved, regardless of whether they have been regenerated. But the Bible teaches that only those who repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved (Jn 1:12,13; Acts 20:21). Those who do not believe the Gospel and reject the Lord Jesus [do not receive Him as their own Lord and Savior] will be eternally damned (Jn 3:36).

Even if Paul means definition #1 of pas (and not definition #2), it doesn't do any harm to Hamm's soteriological viewpoint. I've never seen him deny that the gospel message is meant for all people or that it is not offered to all people.

Pas - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard
pas Adjective
Definition
1 individually
-each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
2 collectively
-some of all types

(PS check out the Greek expert's further explanation of pas in the link above)
 
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Hammster

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PrincetonGuy is absolutely correct. Not only are you twisting the meaning of the words and pretending that the context means "all types" and the verse is "out of context" in relation to the topic (which is grace), but you are also deliberately and falsely accusing others of Universalism to divert attention from what you are trying to accomplish -- obfuscation and misrepresentation, or worse. And then to mention "the Unorthodox area" shows to what extent you will go to uphold your falsification of Scripture.

To assert that God offers His free gift of salvation -- eternal life -- to all men is NOT Universalism at all. It is the true Gospel, backed up by a multitude of Scriptures. Therefore what you are doing is despicable.

To be clear about Universalism. It is the false doctrine that all human beings will be ultimately saved, regardless of whether they have been regenerated. But the Bible teaches that only those who repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved (Jn 1:12,13; Acts 20:21). Those who do not believe the Gospel and reject the Lord Jesus [do not receive Him as their own Lord and Savior] will be eternally damned (Jn 3:36).

However, it doesn't say that He offers a free gift of salvation to all men.
 
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Hammster

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Yes, I am say that.



It is neither contextually nor lexically possible. The grammar in the verse is very difficult and is subject to interpretation—but NOT the interpretation for which you are advocating.

So just to be clear, "all" only has one definition, correct?
 
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Skala

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PrincetonGuy

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PrincetonGuy,

If we take Titus 2:11 by itself without the context of bible or surrounding verses, doesn't it sound like Paul is preaching universalism?

Yes.

"For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people"

Does Grace Bring Salvation for All People or does grace bring salvation for those who believe?

Titus 2:11. For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men, (NRSV)

However, our personal salvation from sin is realized only as we accept it by faith.

Or another possible problem... "grace has appeared "bringing salvation" for all people"
Does the bringing of salvation in anyway imply "bringing the ability" to be saved?

Yes.

If you bring salvation for all people do you bring it in front of them to choose?

Yes.

Do you bring it for all to be saved?

I do not understand this question because it is very ambiguous.

Sally rebelled against God and was cast into hell. Did Jesus bring salvation for Sally?

Yes, but she rebelled against God and His gift of salvation was not realized in her life.
 
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Hammster

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Titus 2:11. For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men, (NRSV)

However, our personal salvation from sin is realized only as we accept it by faith.

Which isn't found anywhere in the passage.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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Which isn't found anywhere in the passage.
Paul’s Epistle to Titus was not written to a stranger; it was written to Paul’s friend and brother in Christ Titus who already knew that our personal salvation from sin is realized only as we accept it by faith.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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So are you denying that pas has a second definition?

And that the Bible authors used it quite frequently?

Pas - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard

The meaning of the Greek adjective πᾶς in any given context is dependent upon whether the noun it modifies is singular or plural, and whether the noun is used with the definite article. When the Greek adjective πᾶς is used with an adjective in the plural but without the definite article (as it is in Titus 2:11), it means: “all people/men, everyone.” (BADG Lexicon, p. 782)
 
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Paul’s Epistle to Titus was not written to a stranger; it was written to Paul’s friend and brother in Christ Titus who already knew that our personal salvation from sin is realized only as we accept it by faith.

Wouldn't Titus have known the rest, too, since he was Paul's friend and brother?
 
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