~That which is perfect~

Giver · Jan 3, 2011

Dr.Strangelove said:
Totally agree.

I guarantee you that everyone who speaks 'tongues' didn't first do so spontaneously but saw someone do it first.

Led by men.

Closing your mind and heart to the truth has you fighting something that is so beautiful. Tongues can be a wonderful tool that the Holy Spirit/Jesus can use to help one come to know God.

I was a Catholic, and never had anything to do with the Charismatic movement. I ask Jesus for the gift of tongues. After I received the gift, found out that my wife had the gift of interpretation of tongues.

For the first year of my ministry, Jesus used the gift of tongues to teach me. I would have a question for Jesus, and would get a tongue. My wife would have the interpretation and it would be the answer to my question.

Yes it was Jesus/Holy Spirit. You see I have been taught to love. I was taught, and given the grace to live the Whole Word of God. Jesus has kept me free from sin for thirty some years.

One is to judge a Spirit by the fruits produced.

Dr.Strangelove · Jan 3, 2011

Giver said:
Closing your mind and heart to the truth has you fighting something that is so beautiful. Tongues can be a wonderful tool that the Holy Spirit/Jesus can use to help one come to know God.

I was a Catholic, and never had anything to do with the Charismatic movement. I ask Jesus for the gift of tongues. After I received the gift, found out that my wife had the gift of interpretation of tongues.

For the first year of my ministry, Jesus used the gift of tongues to teach me. I would have a question for Jesus, and would get a tongue. My wife would have the interpretation and it would be the answer to my question.

Yes it was Jesus/Holy Spirit. You see I have been taught to love. I was taught, and given the grace to live the Whole Word of God. Jesus has kept me free from sin for thirty some years.

One is to judge a Spirit by the fruits produced.

Giver I want to paste this post over in my Pentacostal thread if you dont mind.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7523887/

I want to ask you more about 'tongues' but its hard having the same debate over three or four different threads.

Is that ok sir?

Giver · Jan 3, 2011

Dr.Strangelove said:
Giver I want to paste this post over in my Pentacostal thread if you dont mind.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7523887/

I want to ask you more about 'tongues' but its hard having the same debate over three or four different threads.

Is that ok sir?

My witness would not fit in the thread you are suggesting. I am no longer involved with any large group of Christians, Charismatic or other wise.

I learned not to trust or believe the TV Evangelist.

My expierance with Charismatic groups has been that even though people may be walking in the gifts of the Holy Spirit, when those people start to be asked by God to listen and obey his teachings, most opt to follow the teaching they have learned from man.

When that happens, it seem the gifts just disappear. After a bit a whole new group of people get exited and start all over again.

What people need to ask of them is who truly is teaching him or her. Has Jesus/Holy Spirit ever taught you personally?

How many can truly say Jesus/Holy Spirit personally communicated a teaching to him or her.

Another question what if Jesus told you something that you dont believe. What would you do?

Example Jesus told me that we were not to hurt/harm anyone for any reason. I spent five years in the US armed forces; I believed it my duty to protect my country.

Jesus shows me scripture that says: (Matthew 5:39) You have learnt how it was said: Eye for eye and tooth for tooth. But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.

People find it much easer to follow mans teachings about God, then Gods teachings.

razeontherock · Jan 3, 2011

child of Jesus;56439669 if you have people standing up in church speaking gibberish said:
Chapter and verse please? Oh that's right, you've got nothing but your own opinion and lack of experience. Check

razeontherock · Jan 3, 2011

simonthezealot said:
Nonetheless, I'm a cessationist, yet i've experienced like yarddog a manifestation of the spirit in a manner of language...Once!
It was for his purpose and for His glory. It's not a gift that i posses it was an action of the HS. happened once, end of story.

Forgive me if this has been answered already, but how is this consistent with being a "cessationist?"

sunlover1 · Jan 3, 2011

razeontherock said:
That has nothing to do with "when that which is perfect is come."

If you're not prepared to beat your hate-filled sword into a plowshare, at least have the decency to take your hate filled ideas to a hate filled thread of your own which you start, and give it a hate filled title. Thanks

Yeah, the thread did get a bit messed up.
I tried to keep it on topic but it was a mess.
Should have had it shut down.
You may as well stop reading Ray..
It's much the same probably for many
pages.
Hey.. favor?
My son just moved out last week, texted me just now
to pray for him . says his throat hurts badly.
I am going to pray for him and wondered if
you can agree with me.
Reminds me of something interesting someone
once told me.. i'll get back to that, right now
i am off to pray.

razeontherock · Jan 3, 2011

Dr.Strangelove said:
The whole book of Corinthians is Paul trying to ween the people away from thinking they can manifest supernatural gifts and practising such. He doesn't want people to do it.

That must be why he said to earnestly covet the higher gifts, especially prophecy. Rrriiight.

Back to the OP, if that's still allowed:

"that which is perfect" refers (in part) to when ALL OUR FOOLISHNESS based on our merely partial understanding, the best of which is no better than seeing a reflection on a poor mirror, is replaced by SEEING HIM AS HE IS.

Then we'll be like Him

Until then there are many things we would do well to take heed to, with humility being at the top (and bottom) of that stack - IMHO.

razeontherock · Jan 3, 2011

Dr.Strangelove said:
The children recieve the spirit of course. Doesn't mean they recieve supernatural miraculous gifts.

But you're the one saying you're perfect already - why can't you miraculously heal and raise the dead like Jesus did

Massive holes in your theology are showing. This has been a public service announcement.

razeontherock · Jan 3, 2011

Dr.Strangelove said:
Nope. My position is still that larking around in church, babbling...falling down...running around, believing that you can heal people on demand is ALL UNBIBLICAL and I am certain you can never change my position on that no matter what you THINK scripture says. In fact, I shouldn't even be talking to you really:

This is known as a STRAWMAN.

razeontherock · Jan 3, 2011

Dr.Strangelove said:
I dont limit God's power. I limit mens power. Men have the book now. We don't need the powers.

You mean the book that says this:

"Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof"

razeontherock · Jan 3, 2011

child of Jesus said:
we disagree that the Charismatic Movement is a legitimate work of The Holy Spirit.

Again, strawman, and moving the goalposts to boot. What you mean by "the charismatic movement" is specific, and has NOTHING to do with this thread.

Ih8s8n · Jan 3, 2011

razeontherock said:
Again, strawman, and moving the goalposts to boot. What you mean by "the charismatic movement" is specific, and has NOTHING to do with this thread.

razeontherock: You got that right. I've mentioned her strawmen to her already...hasn't seemed to have helped, though. Wait until you get to the parts (if you haven't gotten there already) where she insists that your shadow has to heal people and you need to raise people from the dead...

Maggie893 · Jan 3, 2011

MOD HAT

Closing this thread temporarily for staff review and cleanup.

MOD HAT

Philothei · Jan 4, 2011

Mod hat on
This thread underwent a major clean-up
A great deal of posts were deleted!
Please avoid flaming each other; bickering in this thread was over to top. This is not how we Christians should interact with each other. You can disagree and still debate in a polite civilized manner. Keep the rules or this thread will be closed permanently!!

Thread is now open.
Thanks
Mod hat off

Dr.Strangelove · Jan 4, 2011

razeontherock said:
That must be why he said to earnestly covet the higher gifts, especially prophecy. Rrriiight.

He never says to covet higher gifts. Check the Greek.

razeontherock said:
Back to the OP, if that's still allowed:

"that which is perfect" refers (in part) to when ALL OUR FOOLISHNESS based on our merely partial understanding, the best of which is no better than seeing a reflection on a poor mirror, is replaced by SEEING HIM AS HE IS.

Then we'll be like Him

So you don't know Him? You cant see Him? You are still foolish and only see partially?

Oh my. It didn't do you much good did it? The old salvation thing?

razeontherock said:
But you're the one saying you're perfect already - why can't you miraculously heal and raise the dead like Jesus did

Why cant those with the 'gift of healing' do that? They are supposed to do all the works of Christ and even EXCEED them! Although I cant imagine what could beat raising the dead?

I said we are perfected in Christs Holy, true and perfect righteousnes by His sacrifice on the cross. Unless you say we're not perfected?

10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

sunlover1 · Jan 5, 2011

Dr.Strangelove said:
He never says to covet higher gifts. Check the Greek.

What does the greek say?

So you don't know Him? You cant see Him? You are still foolish and only see partially?

Oh my. It didn't do you much good did it? The old salvation thing?

Prophecy and speaking in unknown languagesb and special knowledge will become useless. But love will last forever! 9Now our knowledge is partial and incomplete, and even the gift of prophecy reveals only part of the whole picture! 10But when the time of perfection comes, these partial things will become useless. 11When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child. But when I grew up, I put away childish things. 12Now we see things imperfectly, like puzzling reflections in a mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity.c All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely.

Why cant those with the 'gift of healing' do that? They are supposed to do all the works of Christ and even EXCEED them! Although I cant imagine what could beat raising the dead?

Jesus said that. Not "them"

I said we are perfected in Christs Holy, true and perfect righteousnes by His sacrifice on the cross. Unless you say we're not perfected?

He made perfect .. yep.
But you don't "see" perfectly.

razeontherock · Jan 5, 2011

Would love to see Docbot respond

Dr.Strangelove · Jan 6, 2011

sunlover1 said:
What does the greek say?

Searching Greek Database:

Διώκετε (Pursue) // ἀγάπην (Love) // δὲ (Yet // ζηλοῦτε (Desire earnestly) // πνευματικά (Spiritual) // μᾶλλον (Especially) // προφητεύητε (Prophecy)

sunlover1 said:
Prophecy and speaking in unknown languagesb and special knowledge will become useless. But love will last forever! 9Now our knowledge is partial and incomplete, and even the gift of prophecy reveals only part of the whole picture! 10But when the time of perfection comes, these partial things will become useless.11When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child. But when I grew up, I put away childish things. 12Now we see things imperfectly, like puzzling reflections in a mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity.c All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely.

'We' and 'our' used as collective pronoun...example:

Schoolteacher to naughty pupils >>

'We are not really behaving well today are we?'

Requesting Lifeform :Sunlover1: interpretation of redbold. what are 'Childish things'?

sunlover1 said:
Jesus said that. Not "them"

Altering query. Why can't people with the 'gift of healing' exceed THAT which Jesus did.

sunlover1 said:
He made perfect .. yep.
But you don't "see" perfectly.

Query >>

If He made us Perfect. Has that perfect come?

1)Yes
2)No
3)Dont know

Please respond. (with explanation)

>End

razeontherock · Jan 6, 2011

That which is perfect has come in one sense; the same sense that everything else has come. Spiritually.

That which is perfect has NOT come in one sense; physically. Just like everything else where "the creature is subjected to Hope."

Like most things where believers disagree, one side is speaking in one sense, while the other side is speaking to a different sense. Both are right! No real disagreement.

Sacraments help to bring the one sense where perfection is a present reality, (Spiritual) into our physical reality. I'm not sure that's at all limited to "sacraments," nor do I think G-d is overly impressed with what we might call it. Our dependency on Him, and living by Faith to "draw out water from the wells of Salvation" so He can abide with us in a greater and greater sense seems to be His heart's desire ...

Your Greek there doesn't contradict what I've been saying all along. "Love earnestly Spiritual especially Prophecy" can in no way equate to gifts being childish and done away with. It IS perfectly consistent with my last paragraph. That's what we want, the WHOLE OF SCRIPTURE supporting our position, in harmony. Only when we have that should we have any confidence we've got the right idea.

See anything contradictory? I see G-d doing His Ancient work!

Dr.Strangelove · Jan 6, 2011

Ih8s8n said:
Dr.Strangelove: No, it isn't. HERE is "the message of scripture QUITE CLEARLY", once again, in the words of Peter:

`snip`

Contrary to your erroneous claim (one of many):

1. They had clean (indeed) escaped from them who live in error.
2. They had escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
3. They were entangled AGAIN therein and overcome.
4. Their latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
5. They had known the way of righteousness and then turned from the holy commandment delivered to them.
6. They had TURNED, like dogs, BACK TO their own vomit AGAIN.
7. They had TURNED, like sows (pigs) that HAD BEEN WASHED, BACK TO wallowing in the mire AGAIN.

ERROR_BAD_CONFIGURATION

Having knowledge of Christ does not = True Salvation. Those who (Margin: BARELY/NOT QUITE) escape may have appearance of sanctification but can still not be truly sanctified.

Ih8s8n said:
In other words, as usual (sad to say), you have no idea whatsoever what you are talking about. Take your "once saved, always saved" garbage elsewhere.

ERROR_BAD_QUERY_SYNTAX

DocBot has detected anger and vitriol. Please allow hardware to cool to appropriate levels before resuming communications.

Query>> Is Predestination the same as OSAS?

Ih8s8n said:
I'll add this quote of yours, too, before responding, since they both come from the book of Hebrews:

I've already given you one strong admonition from Hebrews that you trampled on...let's see what you do with this one:

What do we know about these CHRISTIANS (yeah, he's talking about Christians)? Well, we know the following, at least:

1. They had already laid the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, etc., etc.
2. They were once enlightened.
3. They had tasted of the heavenly gift.
4. They were made partakers of the Holy Ghost.
5. They had tasted the good word of God.
6. They had tasted the powers of the world to come.
7. They had already been benefactors of the crucified Christ.

If such fall away, it is IMPOSSIBLE to renew them AGAIN unto repentance because Christ won't be crucified afresh. Before you apply your "scriptural gymnastics" to this, please also consider the following from the same epistle to the Hebrews:

:: SNIP ::

This comes RIGHT AFTER your "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14) Why didn't you quote this as well? I know why. Because scripture QUITE CLEARLY (to use your words) teaches that those who were sanctified by the blood of Christ can AFTERWARDS "count the blood of the covenant wherewith they WERE sanctified as an unholy thing" and tread under foot the Son of God and do despite to or despise the Spirit of grace or the Holy Spirit by their WILLFUL SINNING.

Got it? No? More "scriptural gymnastics" on the way? Your choice.

ERROR_INVALID_FIELD

Laying foundations, tasting, made partakers etc does not mean full and true sanctification.

Searching orthodox exposition on relevant Hebrews verses>>>

Gill:

who was sanctified or separated from others by a visible profession of religion; having given himself up to a church, to walk with it in the ordinances of the Gospel; and having submitted to baptism, and partook of the Lord's supper, and drank of the cup, "the blood of the New Testament", or "covenant": though he did not spiritually discern the body and blood of Christ in the ordinance, but counted the bread and wine, the symbols of them, as common things; or who professed himself, and was looked upon by others, to be truly sanctified by the Spirit, and to be justified by the blood of Christ, though he was not really so.

Ih8s8n said:
Lastly (for now), drop the "docbot" stuff, okay? It's almost painful to watch someone like yourself who insists that all "childish things" have past to behave like such a little child. In the future, please speak like a man and not like a "bot". Thanks.

Take care

ERROR_PRODUCT_VERSION??

Drop DocBot >>> Does not compute.

Query >> Does lifeform : Ih8s8n : want DocBot to upgrade to newer version?

Please respond.

>End.

~That which is perfect~

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