Ten Commandments in Courtrooms?

[8TarHeel8]

Tolly, there's a difference between a historical display of the 10 commandments, and installing a newly cut 10-ton monument. It's really not hard to see the difference at all. Seriously, you're making a lot of nasty generalizations based on the unacceptable actions of one judge, and a few radical atheists. Not a single "liberal" I talked to has disagreed with the 10 commandments on the wall of the Supreme court, for instance.

Are you making the case that such a monument is illegal or unconstitutional? Fine. Provide for us the specific law or constitutional amendment that makes such a display illegal.

 

[tollytee]

Tolly, there's a difference between a historical display of the 10 commandments, and installing a newly cut 10-ton monument. It's really not hard to see the difference at all. Seriously, you're making a lot of nasty generalizations based on the unacceptable actions of one judge, and a few radical atheists. Not a single "liberal" I talked to has disagreed with the 10 commandments on the wall of the Supreme court, for instance.

Your right, my post does appear to imply all those anywhere right of center are included in my statements. I will edit the post accordingly. I still don't see why a display of any size would be a concern. The concern should only rise if the display in any way effected the process of the court.

Respectfully

 

[crazyfingers]

Are you making the case that such a monument is illegal or unconstitutional? Fine. Provide for us the specific law or constitutional amendment that makes such a display illegal.

Are you aware of the Establishment clause of the 1st Amendment? Are you aware of the 14th amendment and that the 14th amendment applies the establishment clause to the states and state actions through "incorporation doctrine"?

Are you aware that the first 4Cs of the 10Cs are explicite religious commandment? Are you aware that for the government to promote those religous commandments that would amount to government endorsement of religon and a violation of the endorsement test for determining breaches of establishment? Are you aware of the Lemon Test which requires that government action have a secular purpose and not a religious purpose?

 

[Faith In God]

Are you saying that makes it right or correct? [snip]
You're going to have to do better that "It's always been that way."

You took me out of context. I was not, in that post, arguing for it's "rightness", but for the US being a (at least in word) christian nation.

 

[crazyfingers]

You took me out of context. I was not, in that post, arguing for it's "rightness", but for the US being a (at least in word) christian nation.

The US is a secular nations with a lot of Christians in it.

 

[Faith In God]

The US is a secular nations with a lot of Christians in it.

I see it the other way around. The US is a christian nation with a lot of hypocrites in it.

 

[8TarHeel8]

Are you aware of the Establishment clause of the 1st Amendment? Are you aware of the 14th amendment and that the 14th amendment applies the establishment clause to the states and state actions through "incorporation doctrine"?

Are you aware that the first 4Cs of the 10Cs are explicite religious commandment? Are you aware that for the government to promote those religous commandments that would amount to government endorsement of religon and a violation of the endorsement test for determining breaches of establishment? Are you aware of the Lemon Test which requires that government action have a secular purpose and not a religious purpose?

Am I and others on the board supposed to read your mind? Must we assume that these constitutional amendments/laws that you reference are memorized? Have you bothered to read them yourself? Here is a text of the 1st and 14th amendments to the US Constitution:

1st Amendment
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

14th Amendment
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Also, the Lemon Test:

(i) a statute [or public policy] must have a secular legislative purpose

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](ii) the principal effect of the statute [or policy] must neither advance nor inhibit religion[/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](iii) the statute [or policy] must not foster "excessive [government] entanglement with religion"[/font]

The debate of this thread centers around the display of the Ten Commandments in a courtroom. The 1st Amendment prohibits Congress from passing laws that establish or prohibit religion or the free exercise of it by any individual. The 14th amendment would appear to apply the 1st Amendment to the state legislatures as well as Congress. Judges who display the commandments in their courtrooms are not in violation of any law or constitutional amendment. There is no law or amendment prohibiting the ten commandments in a courthouse because such a display does not constitute a law, statute or public policy. Judges are citizens of the United States just like you and me and they are subject to the same protections of the free exercise clause of the 1st Amendment as well as the 2nd part of the lemon test.

 

[PACKY]

I see it the other way around. The US is a christian nation with a lot of hypocrites in it.

AMEN..
Lets bring this controversey to a end, allow the question of allowing the ten commandments in public and goverment buildings to be a referundum question on the ballot of the next presidential election... let the people speak on this.
the ACLU and every aetheist in the land would have a fit and try to stop this referedum vote from taking place.
BBTM

 

[crazyfingers]

Am I and others on the board supposed to read your mind?

No. Just pointing you in the right direction.

Must we assume that these constitutional amendments/laws that you reference are memorized? Have you bothered to read them yourself? Here is a text of the 1st and 14th amendments to the US Constitution:



Also, the Lemon Test:



The debate of this thread centers around the display of the Ten Commandments in a courtroom. The 1st Amendment prohibits Congress from passing laws that establish or prohibit religion or the free exercise of it by any individual. The 14th amendment would appear to apply the 1st Amendment to the state legislatures as well as Congress. Judges who display the commandments in their courtrooms are not in violation of any law or constitutional amendment. There is no law or amendment prohibiting the ten commandments in a courthouse because such a display does not constitute a law, statute or public policy. Judges are citizens of the United States just like you and me and they are subject to the same protections of the free exercise clause of the 1st Amendment as well as the 2nd part of the lemon test.

Clearly while you can google them, you don't understand them.

 

[crazyfingers]

Try reading the entire first section to the 14th Amendment

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Clearly it applies not just to laws but to other state actions.

Also, as I mentioned above, look at the Endorsement Test. Government endorsement of religion is a form of establishment.

 

[xMinionX]

I like Jefferson, but guess what, Court Cases at the time make quite clear that Jefferson's contention is inaccurate at best.

Supreme Court of New York 1811, in the Case of the People V Ruggles, 8 Johns 545-547, Chief Justice Chancellor Kent Stated.....

Wait, wait.. I thought courts were bad when they made decisions that impacted peoples lives outside of the defendant and the accuser... I mean, that's been the vibe I've been getting today. Was it different in 1811?

 

[HRE]

AMEN..
Lets bring this controversey to a end, allow the question of allowing the ten commandments in public and goverment buildings to be a referundum question on the ballot of the next presidential election... let the people speak on this.
the ACLU and every aetheist in the land would have a fit and try to stop this referedum vote from taking place.
BBTM

Since we obviously live in a democracy where majority rules, right?

 

[Jacey]

Since we obviously live in a democracy where majority rules, right?

I say we actually enforce the 10 C's. Outlaw non Judeo-Christian religions. Force children to honor their parents even if they're child abusers. Close all stores and everything on the sabbath. Woo hoo!!

 

[seebs]

It might be interesting to see different groups polled. Many religious people I know are vehemently opposed to the vain and empty show Christianity that puts the 10 Commandments up in court, but violates them all.

It is endlessly amusing to me to watch Christians promote blind and unconditional obedience to the 10 Commandments, despite the clear teachings of Jesus on the way in which the Law is, or is not to be applied.

 

[tollytee]

The US is a secular nations with a lot of Christians in it.

I disagree. Based on the writings published by the Founding Fathers leading up to and during the debates which resulted in our the Constitution, I think it is more accurate to describe America as a religious nation populated with people of many faiths who, by Constitutional right, express their religion beliefs freely.

Respectfully

 

[crazyfingers]

I disagree. Based on the writings published by the Founding Fathers leading up to and during the debates which resulted in our the Constitution, I think it is more accurate to describe America as a religious nation populated with people of many faiths who, by Constitutional right, express their religion beliefs freely.

Respectfully

I would make two changes. First I'd add "largely" just before "religious nation". I'd also add "under a government that is intended to remain neutral on issues of religion". If you add those items, I can agree with your statement. However neither would that contradict my statement.

Note however that the term "nation" is used differently here than in my other post.

 

[Faith In God]

I would make two changes. First I'd add "largely" just before "religious nation".

The term 'nation' was meant as the nation itself, the United States, and not the people which make it up. I understand your intent, but don't agree with it.

I'd also add "under a government that is intended to remain neutral on issues of religion".

Sure. The government is not the church, however its ideas are (supposed to be, anyway) of a Judeo-Christian nature.

 

[tollytee]

The term 'nation' was meant as the nation itself, the United States, and not the people which make it up. I understand your intent, but don't agree with it.

I agree with this interpretation. The term 'nation' signifies the entity of the United States as a 'Nation', and those religious ideals and values which comport with the population at the time of founding, and as an insight as to what the founders invisioned and attempted to incorporate into our founding, and as one of many principles which defined thier ideas of our 'national conduct' and philosophies.

Respectfully

 

[crazyfingers]

The term 'nation' was meant as the nation itself, the United States, and not the people which make it up. I understand your intent, but don't agree with it.

Please provide a definition of Nation then. Simply saying that it's the United States but not accepting "largely" as a qualifier means that I as a non-christian, am not a part of the nation. Given that I am was born here, am a citizen in good standing, and am in fact part of the United States, your rejection of the qualifier would be false.

Sure. The government is not the church, however its ideas are (supposed to be, anyway) of a Judeo-Christian nature.

I know of nothing that would lead anyone to believe that. Please provide evidence.

 

[crazyfingers]

I agree with this interpretation. The term 'nation' signifies the entity of the United States as a 'Nation', and those religious ideals and values which comport with the population at the time of founding, and as an insight as to what the founders invisioned and attempted to incorporate into our founding, and as one of many principles which defined thier ideas of our 'national conduct' and philosophies.

Respectfully

The Founders created a secular federal government. There is nothing in the constitution that implies christianity with the exception of the date at the end, which means nothing.

There are very few mentions of the bible or christianity in the federalists papers. Many more mentions of pagan Greece and Rome, the european enlightenment, etc..