Temporal Salvation?

[BNR32FAN]

I agree WITH YOU that "believing" is a work
(all decisions or choices are mental works)


So... out of one side of your mouth you say "believing is a work"
And out of the other side of your mouth you say you are not
preaching a "works gospel" or a "boaster's gospel"
That is just hilarious.


Jim

I never said believing is a work. Who are you quoting?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Just read the TEXT.
First we have those who "it is given" to understand:


Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery
of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things
are done in parables:


Just read the TEXT.
Then we have those who it is NOT GIVEN to understand:


Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.


Now dare to believe Jesus when He teaches that some men
were NEVER MEANT to be saved... they were NEVER MEANT
to have their sins forgiven.


Can you believe Jesus?
Can you do that?


Jim


BTW... Jesus also explains the Christian church consists
of those who "are given understanding" (saved "wheat/sheep")
sown by God. And those who were NEVER MEANT to understand
the True Gospel and NEVER MEANT to be saved... because they are
unsaved tares sown by Satan and (as children of Satan) destined
to the same FIRE prepared for Satan [Mat 25:41]


Why do you WANT to not believe what Jesus said?


.

Im not disagreeing with what Jesus said at all. I’m disagreeing with how you interpret what He said. Yes His disciples were permitted to understand, WHY? Because they had ears to hear. The wanted to hear the truth. The others didn’t. You never answered my question. When Jesus said “if anyone who has ears to hear” are you saying that He meant if anyone who is permitted to understand? It’s a simple question, can you please answer it?

 

[BNR32FAN]

We already did this.

Faith is a noun

Believing is a verb (meaning having faith)

You cannot "have faith" unless you (wait for it.....) first "believe"

Now... that was not hard, was it?


.

No what’s so hard is to actually get you to provide the definition of these words. That’s what’s so hard. I asked for the definition not what type of grammar they are. You really don’t want to show those definitions do you? You always do conveniently skip over my questions that you don’t want to answer because you know the answer will destroy your theology which is really concerning. You need to really search within yourself and ask yourself what’s more important teaching the truth about God’s word or saving face and pride by refusing to admit that you made a mistake? Since you keep declining to answer my question I can only come to the conclusion that you’ve seen the points I’m making and are simply refusing to admit it.

 

[5thKingdom]

I already answered your question:
We already did this. Faith is a noun.
Believing is a verb (meaning having faith)
You cannot "have faith" unless you (wait for it.....) first "believe"
Now... that was not hard, was it?

No what’s so hard is to actually get you to provide the definition of these words. That’s what’s so hard. I asked for the definition not what type of grammar they are. You really don’t want to show those definitions do you? You always do conveniently skip over my questions that you don’t want to answer because you know the answer will destroy your theology which is really concerning. You need to really search within yourself and ask yourself what’s more important teaching the truth about God’s word or saving face and pride by refusing to admit that you made a mistake? Since you keep declining to answer my question I can only come to the conclusion that you’ve seen the points I’m making and are simply refusing to admit it.

You are pretending to yourself again.

(1) I have answered MANY of your questions
(2) those answers destroy YOUR "works gospel"

Tell me... WHAT question do you think I have NOT answered?

.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I already answered your question:
We already did this. Faith is a noun.
Believing is a verb (meaning having faith)
You cannot "have faith" unless you (wait for it.....) first "believe"
Now... that was not hard, was it?





You are pretending to yourself again.

(1) I have answered MANY of your questions
(2) those answers destroy YOUR "works gospel"

Tell me... WHAT question do you think I have NOT answered?

.

DEFINITION. Do you not know the difference between a definition and a type of grammar? Let me give you an example. The definition of the word talk is to speak, converse, or communicate by words. The definition of the word talk is not verb. The word talk is a verb that’s what type of grammar the word is. Just never mind I see what the problem is here. It’s pointless to continue this conversation.

 

[5thKingdom]

Ok so what your saying is when Jesus says if anyone has ears to hear that means if anyone has been permitted to understand?

No... I will repeat myself for you:
Some mean are GIVEN ears to hear - so they can understand
the "mysteries" of the Kingdom of God.


However, other men are NOT GIVEN ears to hear - they cannot
understand the "mysteries"


Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:


Now... WHY are some men NOT GIVEN ears to hear?
So they cannot understand and they cannot be converted
and they cannot be forgiven... they were NEVER MEANT
to be saved.


Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.


This is not difficult.
UNLESS you pretend that (a) everyone and anyone is able
to be saved (had their sins PAID) and (b) man is able to decide
to save himself by doing some good work (like saying a sinner's
prayer or making an altar call or receiving water baptism or repenting of some sins or "inviting" Jesus into their heart or deciding they will believe in Christ).


When you follow a synergistic gospel where MAN helps God in the
salvation process... then MANY VERSES contradict your theories
and the idea that some men were NEVER MEANT to be saved
is just too hard to accept. When you follow the True Gospel
of monergism where GOD is Sovereign and man does
NOTHING... then there are no hard verses.


Jim
.

 

[5thKingdom]

Just never mind I see what the problem is here. It’s pointless to continue this conversation.

Well you finally got something right.


You cannot handle the fact that "believing" and "having faith"
mean the same and BOTH are not something man can do
(except for secular matters) unless God GIVES them that
"faith" or "belief". Otherwise you have a "works gospel".


Act_13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad,
and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were
ordained to eternal life believed.


.

 

[5thKingdom]

So you agree then that even people who have been drawn by The Father and have been regenerated can be severed from Christ and fall from grace thus they lost their salvation?

Are you are asking me if someone who has had his sins PAID...
can suddenly OWE that payment again?


Are you asking me f someone who has ETERNAL LIFE...
can suddenly LOSE what is eternal... that eternal does NOT
mean eternal at all?


Are you asking me if Jesus way LYING when He said
He would lose NONE of His sheep?


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

I said:
because (wait for it.....) they are spiritually dead.
WOW... what a (Biblical) concept

OK, I dare you to back up your opinion with the Bible.
Book, chapter and verse. Thanks.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


Eph_2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead
in trespasses and sins;


Eph_2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us
together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved


Col_2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;


Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.


Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life:
he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:


2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.


Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


Romans 3:10-12 “There is none righteous, not even one; There is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; All have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, There is not even one.”


Mark 7:21-23 “For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. 23 All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.”


Genesis 6:5 “The LORD saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.”


-----------


Is that enough... or do you want more?


Jim

 

[JLB777]

You need to learn how to format your posts. All the above were from my post, but it shows up as your own quote.

At least, look at your posts AFTER you post it. So you can fix the errors.


As I said, your questions are LOADED phony questions. Just like my question to you about whether or not you have stopped beating your poor wife.


This is a LOADED phony question. Such questions cannot be answered.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6



Is it your position that a person who is in Christ, has no need of obeying His commandments to remain in Him?



Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24






JLB

 

[JLB777]

Jesus taught the church ("Christians") consist of BOTH
saved "wheat/sheep" sown by God and destined to eternal life
and unsaved "tares/goats" sown by Satan and destined to the
same fire as Satan.

That is absolutely false.


Jesus never taught the Church consists of both saved and unsaved.


Please post the scripture where Jesus taught that the Church consists of both saved and unsaved people.




JLB

 

[JLB777]

Please answer the simple question.



Is it your position that a person who is in Christ, has no need of obeying His commandments to remain in Him?





JLB

Galatians 5:3-4[/QUOTE]


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


Obeying Jesus Christ your Lord, is not the law of Moses.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
because (wait for it.....) they are spiritually dead.
WOW... what a (Biblical) concept

(FreeGrace2 said: ↑
OK, I dare you to back up your opinion with the Bible.
Book, chapter and verse. Thanks.)

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Eph_2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead
in trespasses and sins;

Eph_2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us
together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Col_2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life:
he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Romans 3:10-12 “There is none righteous, not even one; There is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; All have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, There is not even one.”

Mark 7:21-23 “For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. 23 All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.”

Genesis 6:5 “The LORD saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.”

Apparently you are quite unaware of the fact that you haven't even addressed the issue here. Of course all unbelievers are spiritually dead. That wasn't and isn't the issue. But thanks for all the Scripture anyway.

Now, let's get down to a real discussion. You think (or guess, opine, presume, assume) that a spiritually dead person must be regenerated in order to believe the gospel.

Now, THAT was the context for my comment above. So, where is the book chapter and verse that clearly teaches that regeneration precedes belief.

Is that enough... or do you want more?
Jim

lol. When are you going to quote verses that support your guess that regeneration precedes belief?

 

[FreeGrace2]

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Is it your position that a person who is in Christ, has no need of obeying His commandments to remain in Him?

This is what I already posted:
FreeGrace2 said: ↑
"As I said, your questions are LOADED phony questions. Just like my question to you about whether or not you have stopped beating your poor wife.

This is a LOADED phony question. Such questions cannot be answered."

Since you seem rather unable to understand my point here, I'll just get to the point.

When you answer my question about whether you have stopped beating your wife yet, then and only then will I answer your phony question.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Are you are asking me if someone who has had his sins PAID...
can suddenly OWE that payment again?


Are you asking me f someone who has ETERNAL LIFE...
can suddenly LOSE what is eternal... that eternal does NOT
mean eternal at all?


Are you asking me if Jesus way LYING when He said
He would lose NONE of His sheep?


Jim

Then what does it mean to be “severed from Christ”, and “fallen from grace”?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Galatians 5:3-4

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


Obeying Jesus Christ your Lord, is not the law of Moses.

JLB[/QUOTE]

Your missing the point. A person can’t be in Christ unless he has been drawn by The Father, so ONLY a person who has been regenerated can be severed from Christ and fall from grace.

Im sorry I thought that post was from Jim. My mistake but I’m going to leave it.

 

[5thKingdom]

That is absolutely false.

Jesus never taught the Church consists of both saved and unsaved.

Please post the scripture where Jesus taught that the Church consists of both saved and unsaved people.

JLB

I am assuming you understand the term "Kingdom of Heaven"
[Mat 13:24] and the term "Kingdom" [Mat 13:41] represent
the Churches... as we preach the Christian Gospel (the seed)
to the saved "wheat" and unsaved "tares" in the NT churches.


(1) The "Kingdom of Heaven" is an earthly Kingdom

(2) The sower of good seed represents the Lord Jesus Christ

(3) The sower of bad seed represents Satan, the King of Babylon

(4) The "Word of the Kingdom" (the seed) is the Gospel of
the New Testament

(5) The "field" represents the world, as the Gospel goes forth
to both Jew and Gentile

(6) The "fruit" of the field (both wheat and tares) represents
the PEOPLE living in the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven"

(7) The (saved) "wheat" and the (unsaved) "tares" LOOK similar,
and grow together (in the churches) until the end-of-the-age

(8) At the end-of-the-age, the "wheat and tares" are separated
during the "Final Harvest"


I am assuming you understand the PEOPLE shown as wheat
are the SAVED PEOPLE in the churches and the PEOPLE shown
as tares are the UNSAVED PEOPLE in the Christian "Kingdom"...

If you do NOT understand this very BASIC information is about
the PEOPLE living during Christian "Kingdom of Heaven"
(the churches) Then you were NEVER MEANT to
see and perceive - or hear and understand:


Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know
the mystery of the Kingdom of God: but unto them that are
without, [not MEANT to be SAVED] all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive;
and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any
time they should be converted, and their sins should be
forgiven them.


(see also Matt 13:11-17... some men were NEVER MEANT
to understand the Gospel, or be converted, or be forgiven...
if you do not understand that some men IN THE CHURCHES
were NEVER MEANT to be saved, then you do not understand
the most basic elements of the Gospel of the New Testament)


Mat 13:24
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,
The Kingdom of Heaven [the Christian church] is likened unto
a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept,
his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went
his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, [the wheat] then appeared the tares also. 27 So the
servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not
thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.



Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom [the Christian Kingdom] all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; [all the unsaved tares] 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


One of the BASIC and ESSENTIAL doctrines of the Christian Gospel
is that the churches (the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven") consist
of BOTH saved "wheat" sown by God and destined to eternal life
and unsaved "tares" sown by Satan and destined to the SAME FIRE that is prepared for Satan and his demons [Mat 25:41]


Remember... the unsaved "tares" LOOK LIKE THE SAVED WHEAT...
they LOOK like real Christians... and they grow together with the
saved "wheat" because they LOOK LIKE the "wheat".... this means
anybody who thinks the unsaved "tares" are NON-CHRISTIANS
(Jews, Moslems, Buddhists, Hindus, Atheists, Agnostics, etc, etc)
does not have eyes to see or ears to hear, since those people
OUTSIDE the Christian "Kingdom" DO NOT LOOK like Christians.


This is all so basic and essential to the Christian Gospel that
it is really Christian theology 101


The "Final Harvest" is to SEPARATE the "wheat and tares"
within the Christian Kingdom... not to separate Christians
from those in the world who DO NOT LOOK like Christians.


If YOU thought the unsaved "tares" are PEOPLE outside the church,
people who do not even LOOK LIKE the saved "wheat" then you
were never meant to understand the "mysteries of the Kingdom".
Or you are a Christian needing a TON of correction on the most
basic and essential elements of the Christian Gospel.


Jim

 

[BNR32FAN]

That is absolutely false.


Jesus never taught the Church consists of both saved and unsaved.


Please post the scripture where Jesus taught that the Church consists of both saved and unsaved people.




JLB

How can the unsaved be in the body of Christ?

 

[BNR32FAN]

I am assuming you understand the term "Kingdom of Heaven"
[Mat 13:24] and the term "Kingdom" [Mat 13:41] represent
the Churches... as we preach the Christian Gospel (the seed)
to the saved "wheat" and unsaved "tares" in the NT churches.


(1) The "Kingdom of Heaven" is an earthly Kingdom

(2) The sower of good seed represents the Lord Jesus Christ

(3) The sower of bad seed represents Satan, the King of Babylon

(4) The "Word of the Kingdom" (the seed) is the Gospel of
the New Testament

(5) The "field" represents the world, as the Gospel goes forth
to both Jew and Gentile

(6) The "fruit" of the field (both wheat and tares) represents
the PEOPLE living in the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven"

(7) The (saved) "wheat" and the (unsaved) "tares" LOOK similar,
and grow together (in the churches) until the end-of-the-age

(8) At the end-of-the-age, the "wheat and tares" are separated
during the "Final Harvest"


I am assuming you understand the PEOPLE shown as wheat
are the SAVED PEOPLE in the churches and the PEOPLE shown
as tares are the UNSAVED PEOPLE in the Christian "Kingdom"...

If you do NOT understand this very BASIC information is about
the PEOPLE living during Christian "Kingdom of Heaven"
(the churches) Then you were NEVER MEANT to
see and perceive - or hear and understand:


Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know
the mystery of the Kingdom of God: but unto them that are
without, [not MEANT to be SAVED] all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive;
and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any
time they should be converted, and their sins should be
forgiven them.


(see also Matt 13:11-17... some men were NEVER MEANT
to understand the Gospel, or be converted, or be forgiven...
if you do not understand that some men IN THE CHURCHES
were NEVER MEANT to be saved, then you do not understand
the most basic elements of the Gospel of the New Testament)


Mat 13:24
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,
The Kingdom of Heaven [the Christian church] is likened unto
a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept,
his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went
his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, [the wheat] then appeared the tares also. 27 So the
servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not
thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.



Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom [the Christian Kingdom] all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; [all the unsaved tares] 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


One of the BASIC and ESSENTIAL doctrines of the Christian Gospel
is that the churches (the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven") consist
of BOTH saved "wheat" sown by God and destined to eternal life
and unsaved "tares" sown by Satan and destined to the SAME FIRE that is prepared for Satan and his demons [Mat 25:41]


Remember... the unsaved "tares" LOOK LIKE THE SAVED WHEAT...
they LOOK like real Christians... and they grow together with the
saved "wheat" because they LOOK LIKE the "wheat".... this means
anybody who thinks the unsaved "tares" are NON-CHRISTIANS
(Jews, Moslems, Buddhists, Hindus, Atheists, Agnostics, etc, etc)
does not have eyes to see or ears to hear, since those people
OUTSIDE the Christian "Kingdom" DO NOT LOOK like Christians.


This is all so basic and essential to the Christian Gospel that
it is really Christian theology 101


The "Final Harvest" is to SEPARATE the "wheat and tares"
within the Christian Kingdom... not to separate Christians
from those in the world who DO NOT LOOK like Christians.


If YOU thought the unsaved "tares" are PEOPLE outside the church,
people who do not even LOOK LIKE the saved "wheat" then you
were never meant to understand the "mysteries of the Kingdom".
Or you are a Christian needing a TON of correction on the most
basic and essential elements of the Christian Gospel.


Jim

The fruit is not the people it’s the works they performed. Their deeds.

 

[5thKingdom]

Then what does it mean to be “severed from Christ”, and “fallen from grace”?

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.


I like to look at this subject from the perspective of the LAST SAINTS.
What does the Bible say about the EVENTS the Last Saints endure
and WHY did they endure it... to be purged and made white.


(1) They shall fall [Dan 11:35]
(2) They shall be tried... to purge and make white [Dan 11:35]
(3) They fall by the edge of the sword [Dan 11:33]
(4) They fall by the flame [Dan 11:33]
(5) They are taken captive [Dan 11:33]
(6) They fall by spoil many days [Dan 11:33]
(7) They are "uprooted" by the Antichrist [Dan 7:8]
(8) They ("the saints")are RULED by the Antichrist [Dan 7:24-25]
(9) They are "prevailed" against in war [Dan 7:21]
(10) They suffer great distress [Lk 21:23]
(11) They fall by the edge of the sword [Lk 21:24]
(12) They are lead away captive [Lk 21:24]
(13) They are trodden down [Lk 21:24]
(14) They are (spiritually) killed [Rev 11:7]
(15) They are (spiritually) killed [Rev 9:18]
(16) They give strength and power to the Beast [Rev 17:12-13
(17) They give their KINGDOM to the Beast [Rev 17:17]


And there are MANY more verses that talk about the falling
of the Last Saints... these are just the ones that immediately
came to mind.


And yet.... NONE of these Last Saints were lost.
EACH ONE was harvested into the marriage for eternal life.


So... the Bible shows MANY TIMES when the Saints fall or are
given needed chastisement... just ask Jonah. But they are
eternal SONS of God.


When you find verses that SEEM to indicate eternal life
is NOT REALLY eternal... you need to check the context
of the verse (is it talking about saved wheat or unsaved tares?)
and you need to check to see if the chastisement is LOSS
of eternal life (does the Bible SAY THAT or do you presume?)

Jim