Temporal Salvation?

[5thKingdom]

How can the unsaved be in the body of Christ?

Because Jesus sowed good saved "wheat" into the Kingdom
and Satan sowed unsaved "tares" into the Kingdom.

Now remember... nobody said unsaved "tares" are in the
"Body of Christ"... that is just you making a STRAWMAN.
The Bible says they were sown into the Christian "Kingdom"
(the church).

You prove NOTHING when you construct STRAWMEN

Jim

 

[BNR32FAN]

Because Jesus sowed good saved "wheat" into the Kingdom
and Satan sowed unsaved "tares" into the Kingdom.

Now remember... nobody said unsaved "tares" are in the
"Body of Christ"... that is just you making a STRAWMAN.
The Bible says they were sown into the Christian "Kingdom"
(the church).

You prove NOTHING when you construct STRAWMEN

Jim

The church is the body of Christ.

 

[5thKingdom]

The fruit is not the people it’s the works they performed. Their deeds.

No... the "fruit" is the "wheat" or the "tares"... the PEOPLE
in the Kingdom.

You must read for comprehension"


Mat 13:26 But when the blade [the wheat] was sprung up,
and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.


.

 

[5thKingdom]

The church is the body of Christ.

Right... in a church of 100 people... EACH one is saved?
All of the verses that talk about false teachers and wolves
in sheep's clothing are NOT talking about the church?

There is NO CHURCH on earth that has ONLY saved "wheat"
and NO unsaved "tares".

To even SUGGEST such a think demonstrates a complete
lack of understanding of the Gospel of the Bible... which
WARNS of unsaved people infiltrating the churches.

Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

The fruit is not the people it’s the works they performed. Their deeds.

No... the "fruit" is the "wheat" or the "tares"... the PEOPLE
in the Kingdom.

You must read for comprehension"


Mat 13:26 But when the blade [the wheat] was sprung up,
and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.


.

 

[JLB777]

This is what I already posted:
FreeGrace2 said: ↑
"As I said, your questions are LOADED phony questions. Just like my question to you about whether or not you have stopped beating your poor wife.

This is a LOADED phony question. Such questions cannot be answered."

Since you seem rather unable to understand my point here, I'll just get to the point.

When you answer my question about whether you have stopped beating your wife yet, then and only then will I answer your phony question.

Making derogatory remarks is not going to change the truth.


I asked a simple honest question that comes from scripture.

It’s not loaded.

It’s not phony.

It’s a real question with a real answer for those who are honest;
for those who are not trying to hide their man made theology.



Here is the verses from which this question comes from.



If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6



Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24




Is it your position that a person who is in Christ, has no need of obeying His commandments to remain in Him?





JLB

 

[JLB777]

I am assuming you understand the term "Kingdom of Heaven"
[Mat 13:24] and the term "Kingdom" [Mat 13:41] represent
the Churches... as we preach the Christian Gospel (the seed)
to the saved "wheat" and unsaved "tares" in the NT churches.


(1) The "Kingdom of Heaven" is an earthly Kingdom

(2) The sower of good seed represents the Lord Jesus Christ

(3) The sower of bad seed represents Satan, the King of Babylon

(4) The "Word of the Kingdom" (the seed) is the Gospel of
the New Testament

(5) The "field" represents the world, as the Gospel goes forth
to both Jew and Gentile

(6) The "fruit" of the field (both wheat and tares) represents
the PEOPLE living in the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven"

(7) The (saved) "wheat" and the (unsaved) "tares" LOOK similar,
and grow together (in the churches) until the end-of-the-age

(8) At the end-of-the-age, the "wheat and tares" are separated
during the "Final Harvest"


I am assuming you understand the PEOPLE shown as wheat
are the SAVED PEOPLE in the churches and the PEOPLE shown
as tares are the UNSAVED PEOPLE in the Christian "Kingdom"...

If you do NOT understand this very BASIC information is about
the PEOPLE living during Christian "Kingdom of Heaven"
(the churches) Then you were NEVER MEANT to
see and perceive - or hear and understand:


Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know
the mystery of the Kingdom of God: but unto them that are
without, [not MEANT to be SAVED] all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive;
and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any
time they should be converted, and their sins should be
forgiven them.


(see also Matt 13:11-17... some men were NEVER MEANT
to understand the Gospel, or be converted, or be forgiven...
if you do not understand that some men IN THE CHURCHES
were NEVER MEANT to be saved, then you do not understand
the most basic elements of the Gospel of the New Testament)


Mat 13:24
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,
The Kingdom of Heaven [the Christian church] is likened unto
a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept,
his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went
his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, [the wheat] then appeared the tares also. 27 So the
servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not
thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.



Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom [the Christian Kingdom] all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; [all the unsaved tares] 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


One of the BASIC and ESSENTIAL doctrines of the Christian Gospel
is that the churches (the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven") consist
of BOTH saved "wheat" sown by God and destined to eternal life
and unsaved "tares" sown by Satan and destined to the SAME FIRE that is prepared for Satan and his demons [Mat 25:41]


Remember... the unsaved "tares" LOOK LIKE THE SAVED WHEAT...
they LOOK like real Christians... and they grow together with the
saved "wheat" because they LOOK LIKE the "wheat".... this means
anybody who thinks the unsaved "tares" are NON-CHRISTIANS
(Jews, Moslems, Buddhists, Hindus, Atheists, Agnostics, etc, etc)
does not have eyes to see or ears to hear, since those people
OUTSIDE the Christian "Kingdom" DO NOT LOOK like Christians.


This is all so basic and essential to the Christian Gospel that
it is really Christian theology 101


The "Final Harvest" is to SEPARATE the "wheat and tares"
within the Christian Kingdom... not to separate Christians
from those in the world who DO NOT LOOK like Christians.


If YOU thought the unsaved "tares" are PEOPLE outside the church,
people who do not even LOOK LIKE the saved "wheat" then you
were never meant to understand the "mysteries of the Kingdom".
Or you are a Christian needing a TON of correction on the most
basic and essential elements of the Christian Gospel.


Jim

Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. Matthew 13:24-26


He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.
Matthew 13:37-40


Why would you teach God’s people that sons of the devil who are to be burned in the fires of hell, are saved?


Makes no sense.


Sons of the kingdom are the only ones who have the opportunity to be saved if they believe and therefore obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.





JLB

 

[JLB777]

How can the unsaved be in the body of Christ?

They can’t

 

[JLB777]

Your missing the point. A person can’t be in Christ unless he has been drawn by The Father, so ONLY a person who has been regenerated can be severed from Christ and fall from grace.

Of course.


Amen.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Making derogatory remarks is not going to change the truth.

More false statements, again, from you. I pointed out the truth. There was nothing derogatory. Being refuted and proven wrong isn't being derogatory.

I asked a simple honest question that comes from scripture.
It’s not loaded.
It’s not phony.

OK, if that is true, then my question to you about whether you have stopped beating your wife YET is just as much "not loaded" or "not phony".

So, please answer my question.

It’s a real question with a real answer for those who are honest;
for those who are not trying to hide their man made theology.

Then answer my question.

Here is the verses from which this question comes from.

Your question comes from a very twisted misunderstanding of these verses.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

Is it your position that a person who is in Christ, has no need of obeying His commandments to remain in Him?
JLB

Your question is totally illegitimate (phony and loaded) because of what Scripture teaches and you have rejected.

Your question is based on the idea that a believer can be "separated from Christ" by lifestyle.

Well, that nonsense is refuted by what Paul wrote about believers.

First, he wrote that those who HAVE believED are sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Eph 1:13 - And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Then Paul said in multiple places that sealed believers are GUARANTEED an inheritance for the day of redemption.

Eph 1:14 - who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

2 Cor 5:5 - Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

See? I quote verses that specifically SAY what I believe and claim. Unlike yourself.

I've highlighted the key concepts in these verses that totally refutes your unbiblical views.

So, since you won't answer my question about whether you have stopped beating your wife yet, here's another one, based solely on the verses I just quoted.

Since Paul mentioned a "guarantee" in 3 verses, can you explain what this guarantee is?

If you continue to refuse to address my questions, much less answering either of them, there is no reason at all to answer any of your questions.

 

[BNR32FAN]

No... the "fruit" is the "wheat" or the "tares"... the PEOPLE
in the Kingdom.

You must read for comprehension"


Mat 13:26 But when the blade [the wheat] was sprung up,
and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.


.

The wheat brought forth the fruit. The wheat is the plant which is the person the fruit is their works. Wheat and tares are two completely different plants. Wheat plants do not produce tares. These are two different types of plants representing two different types of people.

“But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:25‬ ‭NASB‬‬

The word “sowed” means to plant. The enemy planted tares (different seeds) (different people) within the field. Wheat bear fruit, tares don’t.


“But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:26‬ ‭NASB‬‬

I think your confusing tares with chaff. But chaff is not grown by a different seed. Chaff is an unwanted byproduct left over from harvesting wheat. So chaff comes from wheat plants that have produced fruit. Tares look like wheat but they’re not and this becomes evident when the wheat bears fruit. The wheat bearing fruit is evidence that the plant is a wheat plant just like people bearing fruit is evidence that Christ is abiding in them. Every time Jesus mentions fruit He is referring to works and every time He mentions a plant that does not bear fruit it is discarded.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Right... in a church of 100 people... EACH one is saved?
All of the verses that talk about false teachers and wolves
in sheep's clothing are NOT talking about the church?

There is NO CHURCH on earth that has ONLY saved "wheat"
and NO unsaved "tares".

To even SUGGEST such a think demonstrates a complete
lack of understanding of the Gospel of the Bible... which
WARNS of unsaved people infiltrating the churches.

Jim

No false professors are not a part of the church or the body of Christ. Just because someone goes to the building every Sunday doesn’t mean they are a part of the church or the body of Christ.


“Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be! Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, " THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH." But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭6:15-17‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Are false professors one spirit with Christ? No they are not.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I am assuming you understand the PEOPLE shown as wheat
are the SAVED PEOPLE in the churches and the PEOPLE shown
as tares are the UNSAVED PEOPLE in the Christian "Kingdom"...

No... the "fruit" is the "wheat" or the "tares"... the PEOPLE
in the Kingdom.

You must read for comprehension"


Mat 13:26 But when the blade [the wheat] was sprung up,
and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

“But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:25‬ ‭NASB‬‬

You need to look up the word tares and the word sowed. Tares are a completely different plant that the enemy planted among the wheat.

You must read for comprehension"

 

[5thKingdom]

Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. Matthew 13:24-26


He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.
Matthew 13:37-40


Why would you teach God’s people that sons of the devil who are to be burned in the fires of hell, are saved?


Makes no sense.


Sons of the kingdom are the only ones who have the opportunity to be saved if they believe and therefore obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

JLB

I never said the unsaved "tares" in the Kingdom are saved..
I said the saved "wheat" in the Kingdom sown by God are
destined to eternal life and the unsaved "tares" in the Kingdom
are destined to the SAME FIRE prepared for Satan [Mat 25:41]

I have NO IDEA where you get any other idea.

But make no mistake, both the "wheat and tares" are in the
[Christian] "Kingdom of Heaven"


Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,
The Kingdom of Heaven is likened unto a man which sowed
good seed in his field:25 But while men slept, his enemy came
and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

“But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:25‬ ‭NASB‬‬

You need to look up the word tares and the word sowed. Tares are a completely different plant that the enemy planted among the wheat.

Yes, the "tares" sown by Satan were sown with the "wheat" sown
by God in the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" Of course "tares" area
a completely different plant... that is why JESUS used the "wheat" to
represent the saved in the Christian Kingdom and the "tares" to represent the unsaved in the Kingdom. I do not see why you are
having such a hard time understanding such a simple teaching.


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

No false professors are not a part of the church or the body of Christ. Just because someone goes to the building every Sunday doesn’t mean they are a part of the church or the body of Christ.


“Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be! Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, " THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH." But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭6:15-17‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Are false professors one spirit with Christ? No they are not.

Jesus said the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" consists of BOTH
saved "wheat" sown by God and destined to eternal life and
unsaved "tares" sown by Satan and destined to eternal torment.
I am sorry if you do not want to accept what Jesus said.

BTW... the people (both the saved wheat and unsaved tares)
that go to church are called "Christians". Just like the people
who went to the Temple (both saved and unsvaed) were called
Jew.

You can PRETEND there are no unsaved "tares" in the Christian
"Kingdom of Heaven" (church) but you are only (a) pretending
and (b) contradicting the Words of Christ.

Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

The wheat brought forth the fruit. The wheat is the plant which is the person the fruit is their works. Wheat and tares are two completely different plants. Wheat plants do not produce tares. These are two different types of plants representing two different types of people.

“But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:25‬ ‭NASB‬‬

The word “sowed” means to plant. The enemy planted tares (different seeds) (different people) within the field. Wheat bear fruit, tares don’t.


“But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:26‬ ‭NASB‬‬

I think your confusing tares with chaff. But chaff is not grown by a different seed. Chaff is an unwanted byproduct left over from harvesting wheat. So chaff comes from wheat plants that have produced fruit. Tares look like wheat but they’re not and this becomes evident when the wheat bears fruit. The wheat bearing fruit is evidence that the plant is a wheat plant just like people bearing fruit is evidence that Christ is abiding in them. Every time Jesus mentions fruit He is referring to works and every time He mentions a plant that does not bear fruit it is discarded.

I am not confusing anything.
JESUS said the wheat are sown in the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven"
by God and the tares are sown by Satan and BOTH look alike and
grow together (in the churches) until the end of the age and the
final harvest.

I am sorry if you do not LIKE what Jesus taught


Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,
The Kingdom of Heaven is likened unto a man which sowed
good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came
and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.


Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

No false professors are not a part of the church or the body of Christ.

Right... everyone in the church is saved.

Your problem is you do not understand the Bible talks of the
church as being either the ETERNAL church (of only the saved)
or the TEMPORAL church of (wheat and tares)

God PROMISED the Eternal church (the body of Christ)
would be protected and are destined to eternal life.
God PROMISED the unsaved tares in the TEMPORAL
church eternal torment.

Your argument that ONLY the saved can be "Christian" in the NT
is like arguing that ONLY the saved can be "Jews" in the OT

But MOST IMPORTANTLY... the Lord Jesus Christ said that
BOTH the "wheat and tares" grow in the "Kingdom of Heaven"
(the Christian Kingdom... not the Jewish Kingdom)

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,
The Kingdom of Heaven [the Christian church] is likened unto
a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men
slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat,
and went his way.

Now... you can pretend that Jesus was confused, or that He
was wrong... but that is just YOU PRETENDING. The fact is
that YOU are confused and YOU are wrong. The Bible is clear.

Jim

 

[FreeGrace2]

Your problem is you do not understand the Bible talks of the church as being either the ETERNAL church (of only the saved) or the TEMPORAL church of (wheat and tares)

Ha. The real problem is your faulty view of the Bible.

Again, there is only 1 "kingdom of heaven".

There are only 2 kinds/categories/groups of people in the world; saved and unsaved. Or believers and unbelievers.

Now... you can pretend that Jesus was confused, or that He
was wrong... but that is just YOU PRETENDING. The fact is
that YOU are confused and YOU are wrong. The Bible is clear.
Jim

The confusion is on your part. Or, you are just pretending.

The only thing I will agree with you on is that the Bible is clear. Very clear. And you have failed to provide any evidence for your claims.

 

[5thKingdom]

Again, there is only 1 "kingdom of heaven".

Listen, you can repeat your "feelings" about this matter all day long.
But the Lord Jesus Christ taught differently. He specifically NAMED
four (or the five) "Kingdoms of Heaven" on earth.


The Four Beasts of Daniel 7 show the four "Kingdoms of Heaven"
before the Lord Returns to establish the (5th) ETERNAL Kingdom.
So, you can PRETEND all you want... the BIBLE rebukes you.


Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms,
and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down,
and break it in pieces.


1st Beast/Kingdom = Pre-Flood Kingdom
2nd Beast/Kingdom = Jewish Kingdom (different people/Gospel)
3rd Beast/Kingdom = Christian Kingdom (different people/Gospel)
4th Beast/Kingdom = Great Tribulation (different people/Gospel)


Notice the Bible says the Fourth Kingdom is "diverse" (different)
from all the other "Kingdoms"... that alone rebukes your fantasy.


5th ETERNAL "Kingdom of Heaven" established AFTER the fourth
Beast/Kingdom is destroyed.


Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; 22 Until the Ancient of days came,
and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the
time came that the saints possessed the [eternal] kingdom.


4th Beast is also shown as the Revelation Beast and as the
Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" and as Daniel's Fourth
Beast/Kingdom.


If you do not understand this basic and essential reality then
you cannot understand what the Bible PROMISED the Last Saints
"shall understand" [Dan 12:8-10] and what Jesus PROMISED
the Last Saints "shall see" [Mat 24:15 and 24:33] and what the
Last Saints preach as the Seventh Trumpet "begins to sound"
[Rev 10:7]


Bottom Line... the Bible PROMISED [Dan 12:8-10] that ONLY
the Last Saints "shall understand" these Biblical mysteries that
remained "sealed" to all Saints until the END... so your inability
to understand - was already foretold over 2000 years ago.


I do NOT expect you to understand the Truth... the Bible PROMISES
that you cannot. But you cannot find ONE VERSE in the Bible that
contradicts anything I say (or any of the other Last Saints preach)
So that is another Biblical prophecy fulfilled.


The good news is that you are actually SHOWN in Bible prophecy.
The bad news is you are shown as those who cannot understand.


Jim