Temporal Salvation?

[5thKingdom]

It’s a simple question. Can you answer it, without making up your own question and answer fallacy? Do you believe a Christian can fall away from Christ?
JLB

I do not remember ever talking with you so I wonder why
you would just assume I would "make up" an answer or fallacy?

To answer your question, I believe Jesus when He PROMISED
that He would lose NONE of "His sheep".

However, I am at a disadvantage because you used the word
"Christian" and that could mean EITHER the saved "wheat" or
unsaved "tares" in the "Christian" churches.

The problem is the church consists of both saved "wheat/sheep"
sown by God and destined to eternal life and unsaved "tares/goats"
sown by Satan and destined to the same FIRE prepared for Satan.

So, before we can understand the MEANING of any passage we
must first be able to discern the CONTEXT of that passage... is it
talking about the "wheat or tares" in the church and is it talking
about chastisement or loss of salvation (tares were never saved)

.

 

[5thKingdom]

I can show you verses where men whom God has regenerated are warned not to turn away from Christ and also warned of the consequences of turning away. Why would there be consequences of doing something that you claim is impossible? John 15:1-10, Ephesians 5:1-7, Romans 2:4-8, Romans 6:15-16, Romans 10:21 Romans 11:17-23, Galatians 5:4, Colossians 1:22-23, 2 Peter 2:20, 2 Timothy 2:12. I can keep listing verses all day long.

There is no need for you to list verses all day long because
I know of many verses that SEEM to imply an elect can be lost,
but better understanding of that verse and how it harmonizes
with ALL RELATED Scripture shows first impressions are often
wrong - because man like to "read into" Scripture what they
want it so say. I assume the same for you:


(1) Most of the verses you do not understand either
the context or the meaning.


(2) Jesus PROMISED He would lose NONE of "His sheep".
I am not willing to call Jesus a LIAR... are you?


If you want to preach Jesus loses SOME of "His sheep"...
you will need to declare Jesus a liar, show it in Scripture
and then contend with all the passages that teach
eternal life MEANS eternal.


.

 

[5thKingdom]

By all means please do provide us with the FULL DEFINITION of the Greek words translated to faith, believe, and believer. That would be very beneficial.

You do not understand the meaning of "believe" and "faith"?
You do not need to have a Greek definition to know these things...
why would you assume otherwise?

Do you actually think a saint (indwelt with the Holy Spirit) needs
to know Greek and Hebrew to understand what the Bible teaches?

.

 

[5thKingdom]

"FreeGrace2 said: Have you ever heard the
word 'non-meritorious'?

I am very familiar with the word... can you show me WHERE
(chapter and verse) the word is used in Scripture?
No you cannot.


"non-meritorious" is the phrase those following a synergestic
gospel put before their WORKS to make them non-works.


They do not want to ADMIT they follow a "works gospel"
(a "boaster's gospel") so they throw the word "non-meritorious"
in front of the WORKS they do to become regenerated/saved.


It's a cheap parlor trick, a mere slight-of-hand, a smoke screen,
all designed to AVOID ADMITTING they believe they "helped"
God in the salvation process.


Synergistic gospels use the word "non-meritorious"
Monergistic gospels use the word Sovereign/Autonomous God.


You can pretend whatever you want...
but the Gospel teaches monergism not synergism.
So, there is no need for the word "non-meritorious"
in the Gospel of the Bible because there's no "work"
of man in salvation. Repentance follows regeneration.


.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
"FreeGrace2 said: Have you ever heard the
word 'non-meritorious'?

I am very familiar with the word... can you show me WHERE (chapter and verse) the word is used in Scripture?
No you cannot.

It's always a red herring to request specific words and such.

But I can show you were faith ISN'T EARNED, which is the SAME THING as being "non-meritorious".

Rom 3:4,5
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

The red words speak to what is earned, through work. Just like your paycheck is earned. It's NOT a gift.

The blue words speak of the fact that the result of faith is "righteousness" and that is credited as a gift.

I have another passage:

Eph 2:8,9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

In v.8 we see that we are saved by grace and that is "through faith", and is a gift of God.

In v.9 Paul makes clear that salvaion is "not by works", otherwise, people can "boast" about what they earned.

So, let's not demand specific words in order to claim failure of the other side. That's just a big fat red herring.

I ask for verses that TEACH the principle and I don't ask for specific words.

"non-meritorious" is the phrase those following a synergestic gospel put before their WORKS to make them non-works.

You are very confused if you really believe this. It is nonsense.

Here's the fact: works are meritorious. Works receive compensation. Compensation for works cannot be considered to be a gift. It is wages earned. Rom 4:4.

They do not want to ADMIT they follow a "works gospel" (a "boaster's gospel") so they throw the word "non-meritorious" in front of the WORKS they do to become regenerated/saved.

You're still confused. Quite a bit.

It's a cheap parlor trick, a mere slight-of-hand, a smoke screen,
all designed to AVOID ADMITTING they believe they "helped"
God in the salvation process.

Since I've already noted that there is NO such thing as helping God, your claim is frivolous and shows that you don't even accept what other posters say, and you just talk over them and ignore what they say and then you conclude a very false idea of what you think they did say.

You can pretend whatever you want...
but the Gospel teaches monergism not synergism.
So, there is no need for the word "non-meritorious"
in the Gospel of the Bible because there's no "work"
of man in salvation. Repentance follows regeneration.

If you had read my post you would have known that there is no work of man in God's salvation plan.

I reject any notion that believing in Christ for salvation, which is a free choice on the part of man, represents a work that God rewards.

So you can just knock it off about your false claims.

 

[5thKingdom]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
"FreeGrace2 said: Have you ever heard the
word 'non-meritorious'?

Yes, I am familiar with the word.
Can you show me WHERE in Scripture the word is used
or WHERE the concept is taught (chapter and verse please)


"non-meritorious" is the phrase those following a synergestic
gospel put before their WORKS to make them non-works.


They do not want to ADMIT they follow a "works gospel"
(a "boaster's gospel") so they throw the word "non-meritorious"
in front of the WORKS they do in order (in their delusion) to become regenerated/saved.


It's a cheap parlor trick, a mere slight-of-hand, a smoke screen,
all designed to AVOID ADMITTING they believe they "helped"
God in the salvation process.

It's always a red herring to request specific words and such.
But I can show you were faith ISN'T EARNED, which is the SAME THING as being "non-meritorious".

No, you must be able to show where "faith/trust/belief"
is NOT generated by unregenerated man (not a decision
made by un-regenerated man)... but you cannot do that
because your "boaster's gospel" DEPENDS on men who
are un-regenerated "deciding" to become regenerated
by doing the WORK of "deciding".


BTW... when the Bible says elect "trust" God it is talking about
DEPENDING on God to saved them... not them "trusting" God
to finish their salvation THEY STARTED when they first decided
(deciding is a WORK whether you admit it or not) to "believe".
(believing is also a WORK whether you admit it or not)

I have another passage:

Eph 2:8,9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

In v.8 we see that we are saved by grace and that is "through faith", and is a gift of God.

In v.9 Paul makes clear that salvaion is "not by works", otherwise, people can "boast" about what they earned.

And that is EXACTLY what you do every time you pretend that
un-regenerated man can "decide" to have "faith". Since EVERY
"decision" is a WORK (not a physical work - but a mental work)
you admit you follow a "works gospel" or "boaster's gospel"
when you teach un-regenerated man can "decide" to be saved.


So you must then throw the word 'non-meritorious' in front of
that WORK (decision) you made to pretend it is not a REAL work.
It is all very comical to see the mental gymnastics synergists must
do in order to pretend they don't follow a "works gospel".


Actually... you guys ADMIT you follow a "works gospel" but then
you try to negate that by saying it's a "non-meritorious" work.
LOL


.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You do not understand the meaning of "believe" and "faith"?
You do not need to have a Greek definition to know these things...
why would you assume otherwise?

Do you actually think a saint (indwelt with the Holy Spirit) needs
to know Greek and Hebrew to understand what the Bible teaches?

.

Apparently you don’t like the definition of the actual words the authors used. Why is that? “He who has ears to hear let him hear” in other words he who doesn’t want to hear don’t let him hear.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Do you actually think a saint (indwelt with the Holy Spirit) needs
to know Greek and Hebrew to understand what the Bible teaches?

Yes in many cases it does help to have a more comprehensive understanding of the message the authors were trying to convey. Take for example the word repent translated from the word metanoia. The English word repent means to have regret or remorse but the Greek word metanoia means to have a change of mind or thought and to turn around. It means to turn away from sin and towards God. The same situation occurs with the Greek words pistis, pisteuo, and pistos, which are translated to the English words faith, believe, and believer. All of the definitions of the Greek words imply a certain level of faithfulness, fidelity, loyalty, and devotion in their definition. The English words do not include these qualities in their definition. So the English words fail to fully convey the message that the authors were trying to convey.

 

[BNR32FAN]

There is no need for you to list verses all day long because
I know of many verses that SEEM to imply an elect can be lost,
but better understanding of that verse and how it harmonizes
with ALL RELATED Scripture shows first impressions are often
wrong - because man like to "read into" Scripture what they
want it so say. I assume the same for you:


(1) Most of the verses you do not understand either
the context or the meaning.


(2) Jesus PROMISED He would lose NONE of "His sheep".
I am not willing to call Jesus a LIAR... are you?


If you want to preach Jesus loses SOME of "His sheep"...
you will need to declare Jesus a liar, show it in Scripture
and then contend with all the passages that teach
eternal life MEANS eternal.


.

My understanding is backed by 2000 years of church writings. Your’s are not, your doctrines we’re created a mere 500 years ago.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Do you actually think a saint (indwelt with the Holy Spirit) needs
to know Greek and Hebrew to understand what the Bible teaches?

It helps to remove confusion for those who are accustomed to the traditional English definitions of these words.

 

[JLB777]

Your unbiblical biases are getting in your way again.


OK, let's go with this opinion. If I have taken anything out of context, I DARE you to prove your opinion. And please explain exactly what my "own version of salvation" is, since I have no idea what you are even referring to. Oh, and include post #s so I can confirm what you claim.


I've answered EVERY question of yours, unlike your response to my questions.

Here is the question I asked you —

So it’s your position that a person who is in Christ, has no need of obeying His commandments to remain in Him?

Yes or No?

Let me ask you a parallel question: Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

That's what you questions are: loaded with ASSUMPTION.

So the answer address your false assumptions. You assume that a believer can be unsealed from Christ. Yet, you have repeatedly failed to show that from Scripture.

So I'm not ignoring your question. I'm pointing out the false assumptions in your question.

So, go ahead and answer; have you stopped beating your wife yet? Yes or no.[/QUOTE]


Please answer the simple question.



Is it your position that a person who is in Christ, has no need of obeying His commandments to remain in Him?





JLB

 

[JLB777]

I do not remember ever talking with you so I wonder why
you would just assume I would "make up" an answer or fallacy?

To answer your question, I believe Jesus when He PROMISED
that He would lose NONE of "His sheep".

However, I am at a disadvantage because you used the word
"Christian" and that could mean EITHER the saved "wheat" or
unsaved "tares" in the "Christian" churches.

The problem is the church consists of both saved "wheat/sheep"
sown by God and destined to eternal life and unsaved "tares/goats"
sown by Satan and destined to the same FIRE prepared for Satan.

So, before we can understand the MEANING of any passage we
must first be able to discern the CONTEXT of that passage... is it
talking about the "wheat or tares" in the church and is it talking
about chastisement or loss of salvation (tares were never saved)

.

Do you believe a Christian can fall away from Christ?




JLB

 

[BNR32FAN]

Let me ask you a parallel question: Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

That's what you questions are: loaded with ASSUMPTION.

So the answer address your false assumptions. You assume that a believer can be unsealed from Christ. Yet, you have repeatedly failed to show that from Scripture.

So I'm not ignoring your question. I'm pointing out the false assumptions in your question.

So, go ahead and answer; have you stopped beating your wife yet? Yes or no.

Please answer the simple question.



Is it your position that a person who is in Christ, has no need of obeying His commandments to remain in Him?





JLB[/QUOTE]

Galatians 5:3-4

 

[FreeGrace2]

"FreeGrace2 said: Have you ever heard the
word 'non-meritorious'?

Yes, I am familiar with the word.
Can you show me WHERE in Scripture the word is used
or WHERE the concept is taught (chapter and verse please)

Demanding specific words isn't very mature.

However, Rom 4:4,5 lays out the fact that faith and grace aren't rewarded, which MEANS it's non-meritorious.

I thought you were aware that there are a number of words that can be used to SAY the SAME THING.

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

The red words describe what is called MERITORIOUS. A paycheck is an obligation based on one's work duties and accomplishments.

The blue words describe what is called NON-MERITORIOUS. Trust or faith is credited as righteousness. Nothing about an "obligation", like your paycheck.

Now, you can twist this any way you want or need to in order to shift the focus or dodge the clear issue. But it's true just the same.

Or, Eph 2:8,9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

The red words show clearly that salvation is by grace. It's NON-MERITORIOUS.
The blue words further clarify that salvation is a gift of God. Again, gifts are NON-MERITORIOUS by definition.
The green words blow your unbiblical theological theories WAY out of the water.

"non-meritorious" is the phrase those following a synergestic
gospel put before their WORKS to make them non-works.

Since it's obvious that you view salvation as a work, I expect you'd have this response.

See above.

So, where do you find any verse that INDICATES clearly (I'm not asking for specific words, unlike you) that salvation is a work?

They do not want to ADMIT they follow a "works gospel"
(a "boaster's gospel") so they throw the word "non-meritorious"
in front of the WORKS they do in order (in their delusion) to become regenerated/saved.

Pure nonsense. salvation is by grace through faith, NOT OF WORKS. So, there you go. You've just been REFUTED AGAIN.

It's a cheap parlor trick, a mere slight-of-hand, a smoke screen,
all designed to AVOID ADMITTING they believe they "helped" God in the salvation process.

Sure. And I proved that from the 2 passages above.

I would think it is rather embarrassing to make such claims when the truth so glaringly refutes your own claims.

Salvation is a gift of God. How in the world can a non-meritorious gift in any way help God?? That obviously makes no sense to sensible people.

No, you must be able to show where "faith/trust/belief"
is NOT generated by unregenerated man (not a decision
made by un-regenerated man)... but you cannot do that
because your "boaster's gospel" DEPENDS on men who
are un-regenerated "deciding" to become regenerated
by doing the WORK of "deciding".

I asked you if you "generate" all of your own thoughts. How do you "generate" them.

And that is EXACTLY what you do every time you pretend that
un-regenerated man can "decide" to have "faith".

You just keep missing the point. No one "decides to have faith". That is ludicrous on its face.

Man decided to believe what God promises. It's that simple.

Since EVERY
"decision" is a WORK (not a physical work - but a mental work)[/QUTOE]
The Bible doesn't EVER describe thinking as a "work".

you admit you follow a "works gospel" or "boaster's gospel"
when you teach un-regenerated man can "decide" to be saved.

I will admit to no such very stupid idea.

Actually... you guys ADMIT you follow a "works gospel" but then
you try to negate that by saying it's a "non-meritorious" work.
LOL

Since you keep repeating your mantra that 'you guys' ADMIT we follow a works gospel, how about proving your silly claim with some actual evidence?

The truth is; you don't have any evidence. Just a confused opinion.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Let me ask you a parallel question: Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

That's what you questions are: loaded with ASSUMPTION.
Just like yours.

So the answer address your false assumptions. You assume that a believer can be unsealed from Christ. Yet, you have repeatedly failed to show that from Scripture.

So I'm not ignoring your question. I'm pointing out the false assumptions in your question.

So, go ahead and answer; have you stopped beating your wife yet? Yes or no.

You need to learn how to format your posts. All the above were from my post, but it shows up as your own quote.

At least, look at your posts AFTER you post it. So you can fix the errors.

Please answer the simple question.

As I said, your questions are LOADED phony questions. Just like my question to you about whether or not you have stopped beating your poor wife.

Is it your position that a person who is in Christ, has no need of obeying His commandments to remain in Him?

This is a LOADED phony question. Such questions cannot be answered.

 

[5thKingdom]

Apparently you don’t like the definition of the actual words the authors used. Why is that? “He who has ears to hear let him hear” in other words he who doesn’t want to hear don’t let him hear.

Apparently you do not know what you are talking about since
I already addressed the original words used. Do you REALLY
think ignoring things NEGATES them... yes you do, because
you ignore the Words of Christ and pretend that negates HIM.


You say (and I quote) in other words he who doesn't want to
hear don't let him hear"


But the LORD JESUS CHRIST did not say that at all...
He said they were NEVER MEANT to hear... and they
were NEVER MEANT to be forgiven...Isaiah said the same.


(1) So that shows you don't WANT what the Bible says
and you are willing to CHANGE what Jesus said in order
to design your own "gospel" of works... a "boaster gospel"


(2) Now tell me.... THE LORD JESUS CHRIST said the church
consists of saved "wheat/sheep" sown by God and destined
to eternal life and unsaved "tares/goats" sown by Satan and
destined to the same FIRE prepared for Satan.


Does your designer gospel teach that unsaved "tares/goats"
sown by Satan (children of Satan) can suddenly decide to
become saved "wheat/sheep" sown by God? Is that
how you CHANGE the Gospel of the Bible to not
contradict your designer gospel of "works"?


Is that what YOU believe?


The GOSPEL teaches some men were NEVER MEANT to be
forgiven (both in the OT and NT)... so preach that truth or
design your own gospel of "works"... I could not care less.


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
.

And WHO can "trust" God?
Can these people "trust" God?

Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Can these people "trust" God?

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Can these people "trust" God?

Mat 13:3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
Mat 13:4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

Can these people trust God?

Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.


So you continue to PRETEND that everyone and anyone
is able to "trust" God. Pretend just as HARD as you can...
and we will see if that changes any of the Words of Christ that
you now intentionally ignore. Good luck with that.


The Bible is VERY CLEAR in many places that NO MAN can
"trust" God until (wait for it.....) AFTER they are regenerated.
The Bible teaches "faith" and "trust" and "belief" are a GIFT
from God. You pretend they happen BEFORE regeneration
(they are a product of DEAD men). That is hilarious.


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

The blue words describe what is called NON-MERITORIOUS. Trust or faith is credited as righteousness. Nothing about an "obligation", like your paycheck.

I understand your argument.
And I understand the ERROR of your argument.


You can stop posting the SAME VERSES over and over.
You need to post ONE VERSE that says NATURAL MAN
(before God "draws" them... can produce saving faith/trust.


But you cannot do that because no such verse exists in the Bible.
The Bible does NOT teach that man "decides" (a work) to have
saving faith until AFTER God regenerates them.


Remember John 6:
NO MAN can come to Christ until the Father "draws" them
ALL MEN the Father draws "shall come" to Christ... and He
loses NONE of "His sheep"


Here is YOUR GOSPEL (a "works gospel" or a "boaster's gospel")
You say ALL MEN can come to Christ by their own "decision"
and SOME MEN will be saved and SOME MEN will be lost.
That is the OPPOSITE of what Jesus taught in John 6.


The Bible teaches the elect were chosen before creation based
ONLY on God's Good Pleasure and NOT on any "works" that they
would do (meritorious works or non-meritorious works).


You teach the elect where chosen BECAUSE of their "works"
of believing.... that is a "works gospel" and a "boaster's gospel"


You are certainly entitled to believe whatever you want but you
cannot show ONE VERSE in the Bible that teaches DEAD MEN
(sown by Satan) can "decide" to become alive. In the Bible,
all repentance is the RESULT of regeneration, not the CAUSE...
otherwise you have a "works gospel" and a "boaster's gospel".


Is that easy enough for you to understand?
If repentance (faith/trust/believe) is the CAUSE of election then
you have a "works gospel" and a "boaster's gospel" because
you can BOAST to all of the unsaved that you did better WORKS
(you made a better decision) and that is why you are not in hell.


It is really as simple as that.


The Bible teaches the "sheep" were elected before creation.
You teach men DECIDE (a work) to become elect "sheep"


One is the True Gospel (God decides)
One is a false gospel (Dead men decide)


You follow a "boaster's gospel" that teaches DEAD men
can suddenly decide they were NOT sown by Satan.
That is hilarious.


Jim
.

 

[5thKingdom]

You just keep missing the point. No one "decides to have faith". That is ludicrous on its face. Man decided to believe what God promises. It's that simple.

You are hilarious.
Out of one side of your mouth you say:
"no one decides to have faith"


Then you say
Out of the other side of your mouth:
"men decided to believe"


Then (after contradicting YOURSELF)
You reject and ignore the Words of Christ that say
some men were NEVER MEANT to be forgiven.


This is just hilarious stuff.


.

 

[5thKingdom]

Do you believe a Christian can fall away from Christ? JLB

Depends on what you mean by a "Christian".

Jesus taught the church ("Christians") consist of BOTH
saved "wheat/sheep" sown by God and destined to eternal life
and unsaved "tares/goats" sown by Satan and destined to the
same fire as Satan.

So your question is unclear because you did not define
whether you were talking about the saved "sheep" or the
unsaved "goats".

To save you time of re-asking the question, I will repeat what
JESUS promised... He will lose NONE of "His sheep"...
and ALL the "tares/goats" go to hell with Satan.


Jim