Temporal Salvation?

[5thKingdom]

I’ll address any scripture you want.

Are some men NEVER MEANT to be saved?


Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.


Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I already addressed Rev 2:20-21
Did you not read my words - or did you not LIKE them?
I will show you these SCRIPTURES again in the hope that you can understand that
the command to repent (1) does not mean people do repent or (2) does not mean
they CAN repent

Likewise, Romans 2:4-5 does not show all men can repent

You can continue to cite those to passages all day long....
but they do NOT PROVE what you want them to prove.

Now... how about you stop INTENTIONALLY IGNORING these passages?
Which DO PROVE (if we dare to believe Jesus) that not all men are MEANT to repent.


(1) They DO NOT repent:

Mar 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
Mar 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.


(2) They were NEVER MEANT to repent

Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.


Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.


Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable;
there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


As I already said (twice) you intentionally ignoring Scriptures does not
NEGATE the Scripture... and you are contradicting what JESUS said...
(Mk 4 and Jn 10) should we believe YOU or JESUS?

.

You never actually addressed Revelation 2:20-21 or Romans 2:4-5 you simply dismissed them by saying that not all men are meant to repent. That’s not addressing them that’s dismissing them. Addressing them would be an actual explanation of how these situation can take place without contradicting your theology. 1 Timothy 2:3-4 2 Peter 3:9 Acts 10:34-35 John 3:16 are all evidence that anyone will be granted the ability to repent.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Even Jesus’ apostles didn’t understand the parable which is why Jesus has to explain it to them. Jesus didn’t explain it to the others because they didn’t believe. That’s why He said if anyone has ears to hear then let them hear.

 

[FreeGrace2]

If you argue that belief/faith/trust is generated by man then you contradict the Bible that teaches (1) it is a GIFT of God and (2) it is NOT MEANT for most people

Faith as a word is a noun. And God doesn't give verbs. Faith in the quote about being a gift means that the WRITTEN WORD is the gift. That is our faith.

Second, where does the Bible say that faith is "not meant" for most people?

Now, you can IGNORE that belief/faith/trust is a GIFT upon regeneration and NOT something that man can generate (a "work")

Using "generate" in regard to believing is very poor choice of words. Believing is a thought, actually, and comes from the heart. The Bible says so.

Rom 10:9 - If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

and you can IGNORE that most people were NEVER MEANT to have belief/faith/trust... but that is just you ignoring Scripture.

One can ignore your claim ONLY IF IF IF you provide Scripture that says anyone was "never meant" to believe.

That'll be the day.

 

[FreeGrace2]

(3) Can all men believe? Or are some men NEVER MEANT to believe?

Yes. No.

(1) I noticed you IGNORED Mark 4:11-12 and John 10:26...

I noticed that you never mentioned them. So why would I address what you didn't mention?

Maybe you would like to ADDRESS those Scriptures instead of IGNORE them
because they contradict your presupposition?

If this is a question, then the obvious answer is of course NOT!

Mark 4-
11 He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables
12 so that, “ ‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’”

If you had studied the original quote from Isaiah, you'd have known that the actions in v.12 are self inflicted. Neither Mark 4 or Isa 6 tells us that God causes the blindness and deafness. But you just want to believe that He does.

In fact, Jesus CURED blindness and deafness.

John 10:26 - but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

All you need to do is scroll back up in ch 10 to v.9 for HOW a person becomes one of Jesus' sheep: "I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture."

Did Jesus say anything about "eeny meeny miny mo" regarding who will be saved? No , He didn't. But that's pretty much how you seem to think.

"whoever enters" is a volitional act. Which refers to believing. No one can be forced to believe anything. It comes from the heart (conscience). Have you ever read Rom 2:14,15?

You see..... when you intentionally IGNORE Scripture that contradicts your presupposition, that does not NEGATE the Scripture... it PROVES your theology incorrect.

Again, how can it be "intentional" when you didn't bring up the verses?

Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery
of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done
in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear,
and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins
should be forgiven them.

While you erroneously think the red words support your "eeny meeny miny mo" theology about salvation, the red words simply state the RESULT of actually hearing and seeing the truth. They WOULD be converted.

John 10:26
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

OK, so what? Because YOU ignore v.9 you can't see the truth, and you are putting the cart before the horse.

One becomes a sheep of Jesus' by believing. No other way.

(2) If you believe that Christ PAID for the sins of everyone born...
then WHY are the people in Mark 4:11 and John 10:26 paying for their OWN sins?

Who said they are? Just you, and anyone else confused on the matter.

Here's the deal. The Bible says that all sins were atoned for. Heb 7, 9, 10. Lots of times. The phrase "once for ALL" is instructive.

And 2 Cor 5:14,15 SAYS that Christ died for ALL. And v.19 says, "that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation." And don't bother claiming that "the world" here refers to the "world of the elect". There's NOTHING in the context to come up with that notion.

1 John 2:2 is also quite clear: " He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

No sin must be paid TWICE.

Correct. What you are confused about is that people will be cast into the lake of fire for their sins. Where do you get that from?

This is what the Bible says in Rev 20:15 - Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

So, we know that eternal life is a gift, from Rom 6:23. It is those who didn't receive the gift that will be cast into the lake of fire. And since the gift is offered to everyone, those who don't possess that gift are not qualified to live with God forever. And there's only one other place in eternity for them to go; the lake of fire.

Gift offered to everyone:
Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

Salvation is by grace, says Eph 2:8, and that "not of works" per v.9.

Who is qualified?
Col 1:12 - and giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light.

The only way into the kingdom is by possessing God's very life; eternal life.

Read Mark 4:11-12 again
Read John 10:26 again

Read my explanation again.

It is clear that JESUS (not Calvin) said these men were NEVER MEANT to be saved.

It is NOT clear. In fact, not only is it "not clear", it very clearly DOESN'T say what you think it says. As I explained.

If I am not mistaken, it was JESUS who said Mark 4:11-12 and John 10:26...
was JESUS a "Calvinist"?

Well, you are quite mistaken. Jesus obviously was no Calvinist. He died for everyone.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
But the offer is to everyone.

You keep saying the "offer is to everyone"

Because Titus 2:11 says salvation is for everyone. That is an offer, since salvation is a gift of God.

(1) was the "offer" to all those destroyed in the flood... or ONLY to Noah and family?

Didn't you read that Noah preached for 120 years before the flood came? Of course it was.

(2) was the "offer" to all those destroyed in Sodom... or ONLY to Lot and family?

Same answer, yes. And they rejected the offer.

(3) was the "offer" to all NON-JEWS in the OT.... or ONLY to some Jews?

God's offer is to everyone, all the time. Again, Titus 2:11 refutes your opinions.

(4) was the "offer" to unsaved "tares/goats" in the NT, sown by Satan and destined to the SAME FIRE as Satan [Mat 25:41]... or only to the saved "wheat/sheep" sown by God and destined to eternal life?

Yes, of course it was. The tares and goats rejected the gift. Obviously.

(5) was the "offer" to those in Mark 4:11-12 who JESUS said were NEVER MEANT to be converted or have their sins forgiven?

The verses do NOT quote Jesus as saying anyone was "never meant to be converted". That is only your opinion.

Should we believe YOU or JESUS?

We should always believe Jesus and NEVER believe YOU.

(5) was the "offer" to those in John 10:26 who JESUS said were NOT His sheep?

From v.9 and Titus 2:11, it is obvious they rejected the offer.

Should we believe YOU or JESUS?

Again, we should always believe JESUS and never believe YOU.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Now... how about you stop INTENTIONALLY IGNORING these passages?
Which DO PROVE (if we dare to believe Jesus) that not all men are MEANT to repent.

(1) They DO NOT repent:

There are NO verses that tell us that anyone wasn't "meant to repent". That's just an imagination for those who think so.

Second, the words "do not repent" means they chose not to. Or a better word would be REFUSED TO repent. And the Bible DOES say this about people.

The issue is and always has been about choice. People will go to hell by their own choice. Even though they may not even believe in hell, they chose not to believe.

 

[FreeGrace2]

They do NOT prove people can repent even when commanded

Since it is apparent that you are unfamiliar with Scripture, I'll provide Scripture that proves that men IS ABLE to repent.

Acts 14:2 - But the Jews who refused to believe stirred up the other Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers.
Acts 19:9 - But some of them became obstinate; they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them. He took the disciples with him and had discussions daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus.
2 Thess 2:10 - and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

These verses ALL prove that people make a choice. Good luck trying to prove that refusing is anything but a choice.

On the other hand I have given you verses that DO PROVE some mean were NEVER MEANT to repent... and you just ignore them.

No, none of the verses you quote prove what you claim. You just aren't reading (understanding the verses) them correctly. You are ASSUMING they mean what you claim, but they sure don't SAY what you claim they do.

That speaks volumes.

About your reading skills, yes.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Are some men NEVER MEANT to be saved?


Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.


Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 10:26 Yes they were not His sheep because they don’t hear His voice. They were the robbers trying to lead His sheep astray. Your putting more into that verse than is actually there and the Greek word hoti used in that verse also means that it so.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Here, God has answered you directly:

Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

.

You miss the point of the message. Paul is explaining why God originally chose the Israelites for salvation and has now turned towards the Gentiles. That’s clearly revealed in the following verses.


“As He says also in Hosea, "I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, ' MY PEOPLE,' AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, ' BELOVED.'" " AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, ' YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD." Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, " THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED; FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY." And just as Isaiah foretold, " UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A POSTERITY, WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED GOMORRAH." What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:25-32‬ ‭NASB‬‬

The vessels of wrath here are the Jews not the Gentiles. They are the ones He endured with much patience and long suffering. Hence Romans 10:21.

“But as for Israel He says, " ALL THE DAY LONG I HAVE STRETCHED OUT MY HANDS TO A DISOBEDIENT AND OBSTINATE PEOPLE."”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:21‬ ‭NASB‬‬

This has nothing to do with God choosing some and forsaking others this has to do with God extending mercy to the Gentiles who were not seeking it.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Thank you for expressing your personal "feelings".

Now,

What SCRIPTURE teaches we "must cooperated" to be regenerated.
Please provide chapter and verse

.

Was Jezebel regenerated? Why not?

 

[BNR32FAN]

You keep saying the "offer is to everyone"

(1) was the "offer" to all those destroyed in the flood... or ONLY to Noah and family?

(2) was the "offer" to all those destroyed in Sodom... or ONLY to Lot and family?

(3) was the "offer" to all NON-JEWS in the OT.... or ONLY to some Jews?

(4) was the "offer" to unsaved "tares/goats" in the NT, sown by Satan and destined to the
SAME FIRE as Satan [Mat 25:41]... or only to the saved "wheat/sheep" sown by God
and destined to eternal life?

(5) was the "offer" to those in Mark 4:11-12 who JESUS said were NEVER MEANT
to be converted or have their sins forgiven? Should we believe YOU or JESUS?

(5) was the "offer" to those in John 10:26 who JESUS said were NOT His sheep?
Should we believe YOU or JESUS?

.

The offer has always been for everyone. Why were these people rejected is the question. God didn’t want to destroy all those people in the flood but it was necessary, they were nothing but evil. The scriptures don’t say that Noah was righteous because he was chosen, he was chosen because he was a righteous man who walked with God just like his father and his grandfather. It was Noah’s righteousness that set him apart from the rest of the world which gained him favor in God.

“But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD. These are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:8-9‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Notice it doesn’t say that Noah was an evil man like everyone else until God chose him. It says that Noah found favor with God and explains why he found favor with Him.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Paul is explaining why God originally chose the Israelites for salvation and has now turned towards the Gentiles.

This is a fallacy; that God chooses people for salvation, and that without any condition. Faith has always been THE condition for who God chooses to save.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

This is a choice. God chooses to save "those who believe". The Calvinists would have you believe that God chooses WHO WILL BELIEVE. But He doesn't.

In fact, the Bible is very clear about election. God chooses people for service, including even Judas, per John 6:70.

No one is elected to salvation.

 

[5thKingdom]

You never actually addressed Revelation 2:20-21 or Romans 2:4-5 you simply dismissed them by saying that not all men are meant to repent. That’s not addressing them that’s dismissing them.

Not true. I said that the command to repent does NOT imply
the ability to repent and gave several Scriptures to support that.
Obviously you do not want to address those Scriptures.

 

[5thKingdom]

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

This is a choice. God chooses to save "those who believe". The Calvinists would have you believe that God chooses WHO WILL BELIEVE. But He doesn't.
.

What about those who are NEVER MEANT to believe (or be saved)?
How does that fit into your presupposition?


Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.


Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

 

[5thKingdom]

The offer has always been for everyone. .

Was the "offer" for these men?

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

---------

Was the "offer" for these men?

Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

--------------

Or do you just ignore those who were NEVER MEANT to believe?


.

 

[5thKingdom]

Was Jezebel regenerated? Why not?

Jezebel was not regenerated for the SAME REASON
these people were not regenerated... now WHAT reason
would that be? (Hint: they were NEVER MEANT to be saved)
This is not hard... just read the WORDS OF CHRIST.



Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.



Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.


.

 

[TibiasDad]

And how (exactly) is it a strawman?

If you truly understood Arminian synergism you wouldn't have asked this question, unless you are merely trying to fish for an argument! If that's the case I'm not going to bite. It is one thing to understand but disagree with a point of view, it is quite another to argue against a misrepresentation that !makes your arguments appear the more kosher!

Doug

 

[5thKingdom]

You miss the point of the message. Paul is explaining why God originally chose the Israelites for salvation and has now turned towards the Gentiles. That’s clearly revealed in the following verses.

.

No... you intentionally miss the point of the passage.
God has mercy on who HE decides to have mercy and
God creates some men for mercy and others for destruction.

But... let's just PRETEND that your interpretation is correct.
That would still mean that God NEVER MEANT anyone who
was NOT a JEW in the OT to be saved...

That destroys your argument about a "free offer" to all men.
Did God give Gentiles the "free offer" during the OT days?

.

 

[TibiasDad]

No Doug... I am a Bible believer.

Jim

So am I, so where does that leave us?

Doug