Temporal Salvation?

[5thKingdom]

If you truly understood Arminian synergism you wouldn't have asked this question, unless you are merely trying to fish for an argument! If that's the case I'm not going to bite. It is one thing to understand but disagree with a point of view, it is quite another to argue against a misrepresentation that !makes your arguments appear the more kosher!

Doug

Do not defend your theology...
Refuse to explain WHAT is misrepresented.

1Pe_3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

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[5thKingdom]

So am I, so where does that leave us?

Doug

It leaves us with ME willing to defend my Bible belief
and YOU unwilling... that's where it leaves us.

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[BNR32FAN]

I will show you these SCRIPTURES again in the hope that you can understand that
the command to repent (1) does not mean people do repent or (2) does not mean
they CAN repent

Again it would be unjust for God to punish people in eternal hell fire for failing to meet impossible expectations.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable;
there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Says the fool in his heart. That’s what the beginning of the quote in psalms 14 and psalms 53 says. The Hebrew word fool can also be translated as the morally deficient or immoral person. This is an immoral person’s perspective on believers. Obviously the scriptures point out quite a few righteous people who were seeking God.

 

[BNR32FAN]

As I already said (twice) you intentionally ignoring Scriptures does not
NEGATE the Scripture... and you are contradicting what JESUS said...
(Mk 4 and Jn 10) should we believe YOU or JESUS?

I haven’t ignored anything I was simply in a meeting and could only make short replies every so often. So I’ve addressed the verses you quoted so now the ball is in your court. Do you care to address the scriptures I quoted, and by address I mean give an actual explanation of what these verses are saying. So far you haven’t done that yet.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Not true. I said that the command to repent does NOT imply
the ability to repent and gave several Scriptures to support that.
Obviously you do not want to address those Scriptures.

It would be ridiculously pointless for Jesus to command someone to do something that he is incapable of doing. He used Jezebel’s unwillingness to repent as an example of what would happen to those the church in Pergamum who didn’t repent and reject her immorality. If Jezebel were incapable of repentance then she could not be expected to repent and punished for failing to comply. That would be completely unjust. That’s why it’s not a viable explanation, because we know without a doubt that God is just.

 

[BNR32FAN]

What about those who are NEVER MEANT to believe (or be saved)?
How does that fit into your presupposition?


Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.


Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Were Jesus’ apostles never meant to repent? Because they didn’t understand the parable either that’s why they asked Him to explain it and that’s why He explained it to the because they had ears to hear. They wanted to know the meaning because they believed. I’ve already explained both of these verses.

 

[BNR32FAN]

No... you intentionally miss the point of the passage.
God has mercy on who HE decides to have mercy and
God creates some men for mercy and others for destruction.

But... let's just PRETEND that your interpretation is correct.
That would still mean that God NEVER MEANT anyone who
was NOT a JEW in the OT to be saved...

That destroys your argument about a "free offer" to all men.
Did God give Gentiles the "free offer" during the OT days?

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Rahab was a Canaanite and she was counted as being righteous. Ruth was a Moabite and she was counted righteous. Neither of them were Jewish.

 

[5thKingdom]

Again it would be unjust for God to punish people in eternal hell fire for failing to meet impossible expectations.

You may deem God's salvation plan "unjust".
But considering EVERYONE was destined to hell
the fact that He elects to save SOME seems (to me)
to be extremely merciful. I guess it's a matter of perspective.
If you "feel" all men have a RIGHT to be saved... it's "unjust".
If you believe NO MAN has a RIGHT to be saved... it's wonderful.

Says the fool in his heart. That’s what the beginning of the quote in psalms 14 and psalms 53 says. The Hebrew word fool can also be translated as the morally deficient or immoral person. This is an immoral person’s perspective on believers. Obviously the scriptures point out quite a few righteous people who were seeking God.

(1) Are you suggesting Paul (under the inspiration of God)
did not understand what He was saying in Romans 3:10-18?

(2) You misrepresented the beginning of Psalms 14 and 53
which CONTRAST what a fool thinks and what GOD SEES.

This is what a "fool thinks"
Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

And this is what GOD SEES
Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

If you cannot understand the CONTEXT of verse 1 compared
to verses 2-3 then you can NEVER UNDERSTAND the meaning
of the passage. But I assure you that Paul (under the inspiration
of God) understood perfectly when he wrote Rom 3:10-18

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[5thKingdom]

Rahab was a Canaanite and she was counted as being righteous. Ruth was a Moabite and she was counted righteous. Neither of them were Jewish.

So you are saying that two (2) received a "free offer"
and nobody else (millions of people) did?

When you must use the "exception to the rule" to prove
your point... you have already lost the argument.
You know that.

.

 

[5thKingdom]

Were Jesus’ apostles never meant to repent? Because they didn’t understand the parable either that’s why they asked Him to explain it and that’s why He explained it to the because they had ears to hear. They wanted to know the meaning because they believed. I’ve already explained both of these verses.

(1) If you already explained the verses give me the post #

(2) Try reading more carefully:

Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Jesus EXPLAINED His parable to the disciples.
Is this really "news" to you?

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[5thKingdom]

I haven’t ignored anything I was simply in a meeting and could only make short replies every so often. So I’ve addressed the verses you quoted so now the ball is in your court. Do you care to address the scriptures I quoted, and by address I mean give an actual explanation of what these verses are saying. So far you haven’t done that yet.

What post # did you address my passages?

 

[TibiasDad]

And how does that work if:
Not all men are MEANT or ABLE to believe?

Or do you pretend the Bible does not teach that some men
(most men) were NEVER MEANT to be able to believe?

Seems like a VERY IMPORTANT point in your gospel... No?

Jim

That is your burden to bear, not mine to debunk! Yes, indeed, not all men believe, but nowhere is it stated or implied that it impossible for any man in general to believe, which is precisely what your theological picture has been painted to portray!

And yes, it is a very important part of the gospel! It is good news because there is hope for everyone! Not so for your gospel, if honestly presented, for you know that the large majority of those who might hear are chosen to be reprobate, and that you are unaware of who they are is irrelevant to the question. The only question that matters is if there is hope for every man who hears the gospel! Yours, in my humble opinion, does not!

Doug

 

[5thKingdom]

It would be ridiculously pointless for Jesus to command someone to do something that he is incapable of doing.

And yet the COMMAND goes out to repent and believe
and JESUS says people are not able:


Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Apparently you think Jesus is "ridiculously pointless" and "unjust"
and, therefore, you refuse to accept HIS WORDS.
I understand.

 

[FreeGrace2]

What about those who are NEVER MEANT to believe (or be saved)?

I don't believe YOUR presupposition. The Bible teaches that people REFUSE to believe.

How does that fit into your presupposition?

The presuppositions are yours alone.

Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

I've already explained the quote from Isaiah. The red words indicate the result IF IF IF they did see and hear. But they have "closed their (own) eyes".

Acts 28-
25 They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: “The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your ancestors when he said through Isaiah the prophet:
26 “ ‘Go to this people and say, “You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.”
27 For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’

Color coded explanation:
Red words are what the people DO themselves.
Green words show another option that the people COULD DO.
Purple words are the result IF IF IF they chose that option.

Very simple. There is NOTHING about God keeping them from seeing or hearing.

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

And I've explained this verse as well. The verse about HOW to become one of Jesus' sheep is found in v.9 - I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

The red words show that becoming one of Jesus' sheep is by "whoever enters through Him". This is a choice. Like all faith; it is a choice.

You believe what you WANT to believe. And you reject what you do NOT want to believe.

It's always a choice.

 

[FreeGrace2]

And yet the COMMAND goes out to repent and believe
and JESUS says people are not able:

You need to QUIT saying that Jesus says people are not able to repent/believe. Because Mark 4:11 doesn't say what you keep claiming.

 

[TibiasDad]

Do not defend your theology...
Refuse to explain WHAT is misrepresented.

1Pe_3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

.

Since what you portray is not my theology, I cannot defend it! When you take the time to actually state what Arminian, and/or Wesleyan Arminian thought states (which in as far as the question of the scope the atonement goes, and soteriology in general, they are identical) then I will defend my theology. But what you state in your first example of the gospel is not what synergism espouses!

Doug

 

[BNR32FAN]

No... you intentionally miss the point of the passage.
God has mercy on who HE decides to have mercy and
God creates some men for mercy and others for destruction.

Yeah and who does He decide to have mercy on?

“Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:34-35‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[TibiasDad]

Do not defend your theology...
Refuse to explain WHAT is misrepresented.

1Pe_3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

.

1 Peter 3:15 is not about this issue! This is a disagreement about a particular aspect of how and why some are lost and on the point of initiation of the process, not about why I have hope after I have believed!

Doug

 

[BNR32FAN]

You may deem God's salvation plan "unjust".

No not at all, just your misinterpretation of it. You can’t deny that punishing someone for all eternity in agonizing torture for failing to meet expectations that they are completely incapable of meeting is unjust. Here’s an analogy that describes your theology. Let’s say God commanded that in order to be saved everyone must travel to Alpha Centauri otherwise anyone who does not get to Alpha Centauri in time will burn in the lake of fire for all eternity. Then God builds a giant space ship capable of carrying everyone on the planet to Alpha Centauri and names it grace but only allows a small portion of people to board it and all others have absolutely no way of getting there no matter what they do. Then God punishes these people for failing to comply with His demand. Is that what you call just? People can only be deserving of a punishment if they have the ability to comply, otherwise it’s just cruel torment. God is just because He acts within the parameters of His own moral standards.

 

[BNR32FAN]

And yet the COMMAND goes out to repent and believe
and JESUS says people are not able:


Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Apparently you think Jesus is "ridiculously pointless" and "unjust"
and, therefore, you refuse to accept HIS WORDS.
I understand.

Ok did His apostles hear that parable and understand? No they didn’t. Does that mean they were not chosen by God to be saved? No it doesn’t because they were saved. How can you not see this and keep on quoting this same verse when I’ve pointed out like 4 times already that even His apostles DIDNT UNDERSTAND THE PARABLE?