Temporal Salvation?

[BNR32FAN]

Gospel #1: Man chooses/decides to "believe"... then GOD
SEES that good work man has done and He is OBLIGATED to
finish the salvation process. This is the synergistic gospel of man
initiating his salvation (being the author) and God finishing
what man has begun (being the finisher). This is the
BROAD WAY that MOST Christians follow to destruction.

This is a total fabrication of what synergetic salvation actually is. You say this is the broad way but how does your Calvinistic approach even fit with the broad and narrow path when according to your theology the choice has already been made for the individual and how can John 15:6 even be possible according to your theology? Will you say that those whom Christ specifically says were in Him were not really in Him?

 

[5thKingdom]

Salvation begins by believing the gospel and repentance.

That is not the question.
The question is whether belief/faith/trust is the RESULT of regeneration
or the CAUSE?

.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I think we all agree that we are SAVED BY FAITH so the only
question is whether that faith is a GIFT of God to fallen/dead men

We are not saved by faith alone. Paul makes this clear in 1 Corinthians 13.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"To hear IS to follow."

The word means to hearken, which refers to hear with the intention of dining what is heard.

Yep. Pretty much just what I said.

If one follows through with his intention to obey what the Lord is saying then that one will reap the benefits that is promised.

But you still haven't shown where in the Bible one "follows" in order to receive eternal life. Why is that?

If one begins to to do what is heard, then letter becomes distracted and wanders away from the Shepherd, the once follower of Christ can indeed become lost.

First, you need to fix your garbled sentence. Especially the words "then letter becomes...". What were you trying to say?

Second, the word "lost" is used in more than one way in the Bible. But you are stuck on just one meaning. Regardless of context. To your detriment.

The prodigal was described as being "lost" and "dead", and yet, in the story itself, he was NEITHER lost or dead. He knew exactly where he was. And he successfully came back to his father, proving that he wasn't lost, and required his father to FIND HIM.

So all your theories about the prodigal are wrong.

Jesus was teaching about the loss of fellowship between father and son, also described as "dead" as in fellowship.

[QUOT3E]The promise comes after the following; the obeying of the Lord.[/QUOTE]
Please show me what you are referring to.

We receive the promise as our inheritance.

The promise is eternal life. The promise is fulfilled WHEN a person believes in Christ for it. You've seen all the verses, so you don't have any excuse for believing something else.

We inherit the kingdom of God, at the end when we stand before our Lord to receive our inheritance.

Correct. And that is what eternal reward is all about. Having reward or inheritance IN IN IN the kingdom. As opposed to having NO NO NO inheritance IN IN IN the kingdom. And you've been given all the verses that prove this. So again, you have no excuse for believing something else.

If you have a body that can still die, then you have not received or inherited eternal life.

You really miss the whole teaching about eternal life. It is about one's soul, not body, as you seem to think. All souls will exist forever, but those who NEVER believed will be condemned to the "second death". I wouldn't ever call existence in the "second death", that being the lake of fire, an eternal life, or everlasting life. It is an eternal death, actually.

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. Matthew 19:28-29

All behavior that results in an "inheritance" refers to reward. And salvation isn't a reward.

Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:34-36

And this proves, what, exactly?

nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God,

Sure. Once the physical body dies, there is no more death because there is no more physical body. The resurrection body is a spiritual body. 1 Cor 15.

Peter says it this way —

receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

Do you even understand the meaning of the word "end" here? It seems not. Salvation is a present possession, as all the verses testify.

The "end" of one's faith is the completion of it, meaning that point when one understands exactly who Jesus is (the Son of God, Deity) and what He did for them (pay for their sins) on the cross and WHY He did that (to give them eternal life).

The end result of a life of faith, keeping the faith, is receiving the salvation of our soul; that which was only the substance of the thing we were hoping for throughout our life.

This couldn't be more false.

 

[FreeGrace2]

We are not saved by faith alone. Paul makes this clear in 1 Corinthians 13.

Oh, really? Then you just don't know the Bible.

Salvation:

Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Man is saved by faith alone, and receives eternal life by faith alone.

 

[5thKingdom]

This is a total fabrication of what synergetic salvation actually is. You say this is the broad way but how does your Calvinistic approach even fit with the broad and narrow path when according to your theology the choice has already been made for the individual and how can John 15:6 even be possible according to your theology? Will you say that those whom Christ specifically says were in Him were not really in Him?

First, I wonder WHY someone would feel compelled to label a statement as "Calvinistic"?
It seems like an ad homenim attack to discredit - rather than just addressing the issue
from a "Bible believing" standpoint. I am a "Bible believer" and not a "Calvinist or Arminian"


You say my statement is a (and I quote you) "total fabrication of what synergistic salvation
actually is".... but you fail to explain WHY. Maybe you could give a REASON for your position.


It is not "my theology" that the choice has already been made:


(1) First, the Bible is clear some men were NEVER MEANT to be saved:

Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery
of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are
done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing
they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted,
and their sins should be forgiven them.


(2) Second, the Bible is clear some men WERE MEANT to be saved:

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,
that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated
us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure
of his will,


(3) Thirdly, you ask: (and I quote)
how can John 15:6 even be possible according to your theology? Will you say that those whom Christ specifically says were in Him were not really in Him?

Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered;
and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

You are conflating two separate issues.
I am discussing whether regeneration is the CAUSE of repentance or the RESULT
John 15:6 is not discussing this issue.

Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

Salvation:

Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

(1) Is that a reference to baptism by water... or the Holy Spirit?

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

(2) Can un-regenerated men believe or is faith/belief a GIFT given upon regeneration?

(3) Can all men believe? Or are some men NEVER MEANT to believe?

.

 

[5thKingdom]

I feel like we’ve had this conversation before. I believe I quoted Revelation 2:20-21 and pointed out that while Jesus was expecting Jezebel to repent she still chose not to. This indicates her ability to repent and also her unwillingness despite being given the ability.

The Gospel commands ALL MEN to repent.
That does NOT mean they are capable of doing so.


The Gospel commands ALL MEN to believe.
That does NOT mean they are capable of doing so.


Moreover, the Bible COMMANDS us how to act when they do not believe or repent:


Mar 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
Mar 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.


-----------------


The PROBLEM for your theology is that it does not include the reality
that some men (most men) were NEVER MEANT to believe/repent
So your ASSUMPTION that God's COMMAND to believe/repent includes
the ABILITY to do so.... is proven FALSE by Scripture:


(1) Some men were NEVER MEANT to "see" or "hear" or "understand" or "be converted"
or be "forgiven"... at least that is what JESUS taught (if we DARE to believe Jesus)


Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery
of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done
in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear,
and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins
should be forgiven them.

---------------------


(2) Some men were NEVER MEANT to believe or repent because they
were NOT "His sheep"


John 10:26
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.


----------------------


(3) When you start with a false premise (that all men can repent, or were meant to repent)
then you MUST end with a false conclusion (garbage in - garbage out). The Bible teaches
un-regenerated man (fallen man) cannot "seek" God or do "any good" (like repenting)...
No, not even one.


Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable;
there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


Psa 14:2-3 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men,
to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy:
there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


Psa 53:2-3 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men,
to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.
Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy;
there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

-----------------

BTW... if you feel like we have already done this then WHY are you not
submitting to what SCRIPTURE says and continuing to insist (against Scripture)
that the COMMAND to repent means reprobate people have the ABILITY to do so?
Mark 4:11-12 insists you are making an incorrect assumption.
As does John 10:26 and Rom 3:10-12. Believe God
or don't believe God...

.
.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Salvation:
Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

(1) Is that a reference to baptism by water... or the Holy Spirit?

By the Holy Spirit, of course. In none of the other dozens of verses is water baptism mentioned. All who believe are baptized into the Holy Spirit.

Eternal Life:
John 3:15-16
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

(2) Can un-regenerated men believe or is faith/belief a GIFT given upon regeneration?

I reject the notion that one must be regenerated in order to believe. There are no verses that even suggest such a thing.

(3) Can all men believe? Or are some men NEVER MEANT to believe?
.

Yes. Of course. That is why Jesus Christ died for all men. Of course, since God is omniscient, He has always known who WILL and who WON'T believe. But the offer is to everyone.

If God disabled anyone from believing, then they would have a very legitimate excuse for arguing why they end up in hell, since "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". Why wouldn't God let them believe, if in fact, it is God who allows only certain ones to believe?

Calvinists have never been able to adequately explain their ideas about God unconditionally choosing who He will save. Faith has always been the condition.

 

[5thKingdom]

Many people first consider believing the gospel because of their fear of going to heaven. That’s was my point friend.

First, I think you mean their fear of going to hell (not heaven)


Second, if you argue that belief/faith/trust is generated by man then you contradict
the Bible that teaches (1) it is a GIFT of God and (2) it is NOT MEANT for most people


Now, you can IGNORE that belief/faith/trust is a GIFT upon regeneration and NOT
something that man can generate (a "work") and you can IGNORE that most people
were NEVER MEANT to have belief/faith/trust... but that is just you ignoring Scripture.


.

 

[BNR32FAN]

That is not the question.
The question is whether belief/faith/trust is the RESULT of regeneration
or the CAUSE?

.

We must cooperate in order to be regenerated. Hence Revelation 2:20-21 and Romans 2:4-5

 

[BNR32FAN]

The Gospel commands ALL MEN to repent.
That does NOT mean they are capable of doing so.

Then God’s punishment on those whom He did not allow to be capable of repentance would be unjust.

 

[5thKingdom]

(3) Can all men believe? Or are some men NEVER MEANT to believe?
.

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Yes. Of course. That is why Jesus Christ died for all men. Of course, since God is omniscient, He has always known who WILL and who WON'T believe. But the offer is to everyone.

(1) I noticed you IGNORED Mark 4:11-12 and John 10:26...
Maybe you would like to ADDRESS those Scriptures instead of IGNORE them
because they contradict your presupposition? You see..... when you intentionally
IGNORE Scripture that contradicts your presupposition, that does not NEGATE
the Scripture... it PROVES your theology incorrect.

---------

Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery
of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done
in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear,
and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins
should be forgiven them.

John 10:26
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

------------------

(2) If you believe that Christ PAID for the sins of everyone born...
then WHY are the people in Mark 4:11 and John 10:26 paying for their OWN sins?
No sin must be paid TWICE.

If God disabled anyone from believing, then they would have a very legitimate excuse for arguing why they end up in hell, since "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". Why wouldn't God let them believe, if in fact, it is God who allows only certain ones to believe?

Read Mark 4:11-12 again
Read John 10:26 again

It is clear that JESUS (not Calvin) said these men were NEVER MEANT to be saved.

Calvinists have never been able to adequately explain their ideas about God unconditionally choosing who He will save. Faith has always been the condition.

If I am not mistaken, it was JESUS who said Mark 4:11-12 and John 10:26...
was JESUS a "Calvinist"?

.

 

[5thKingdom]

Then God’s punishment on those whom He did not allow to be capable of repentance is unjust.

Here, God has answered you directly:

Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

.

 

[5thKingdom]

We must cooperate in order to be regenerated. Hence Revelation 2:20-21 and Romans 2:4-5

Thank you for expressing your personal "feelings".

Now,

What SCRIPTURE teaches we "must cooperated" to be regenerated.
Please provide chapter and verse

.

 

[5thKingdom]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
But the offer is to everyone.

You keep saying the "offer is to everyone"

(1) was the "offer" to all those destroyed in the flood... or ONLY to Noah and family?

(2) was the "offer" to all those destroyed in Sodom... or ONLY to Lot and family?

(3) was the "offer" to all NON-JEWS in the OT.... or ONLY to some Jews?

(4) was the "offer" to unsaved "tares/goats" in the NT, sown by Satan and destined to the
SAME FIRE as Satan [Mat 25:41]... or only to the saved "wheat/sheep" sown by God
and destined to eternal life?

(5) was the "offer" to those in Mark 4:11-12 who JESUS said were NEVER MEANT
to be converted or have their sins forgiven? Should we believe YOU or JESUS?

(5) was the "offer" to those in John 10:26 who JESUS said were NOT His sheep?
Should we believe YOU or JESUS?

.

 

[BNR32FAN]

First, I think you mean their fear of going to hell (not heaven)


Second, if you argue that belief/faith/trust is generated by man then you contradict
the Bible that teaches (1) it is a GIFT of God and (2) it is NOT MEANT for most people


Now, you can IGNORE that belief/faith/trust is a GIFT upon regeneration and NOT
something that man can generate (a "work") and you can IGNORE that most people
were NEVER MEANT to have belief/faith/trust... but that is just you ignoring Scripture.


.

Im ignoring scripture but you still haven’t addressed Revelation 2:20-21 or Romans 2:4-5. I’ll address any scripture you want.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Thank you for expressing your personal "feelings".

Now,

What SCRIPTURE teaches we "must cooperated" to be regenerated.
Please provide chapter and verse

.

Thank you for expressing your personal "feelings".

Now,

What SCRIPTURE teaches we "must cooperated" to be regenerated.
Please provide chapter and verse

.

The verses are right there in the post you quoted. Here allow me to post them again for like the fourth or fifth time.


“But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:20-21‬ ‭NASB‬‬


“But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:3-5‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[5thKingdom]

Im ignoring scripture but you still haven’t addressed Revelation 2:20-21 or Romans 2:4-5. I’ll address any scripture you want.

I already addressed Rev 2:20-21
Did you not read my words - or did you not LIKE them?
I will show you these SCRIPTURES again in the hope that you can understand that
the command to repent (1) does not mean people do repent or (2) does not mean
they CAN repent

Likewise, Romans 2:4-5 does not show all men can repent

You can continue to cite those to passages all day long....
but they do NOT PROVE what you want them to prove.

Now... how about you stop INTENTIONALLY IGNORING these passages?
Which DO PROVE (if we dare to believe Jesus) that not all men are MEANT to repent.


(1) They DO NOT repent:

Mar 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
Mar 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.


(2) They were NEVER MEANT to repent

Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.


Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.


Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable;
there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


As I already said (twice) you intentionally ignoring Scriptures does not
NEGATE the Scripture... and you are contradicting what JESUS said...
(Mk 4 and Jn 10) should we believe YOU or JESUS?

.

 

[5thKingdom]

The verses are right there in the post you quoted. Here allow me to post them again for like the fourth or fifth time.


“But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:20-21‬ ‭NASB‬‬


“But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:3-5‬ ‭NASB‬‬

You can cite Rev 2 and Rom 2 all day long.
They do NOT prove people can repent even when commanded

On the other hand I have given you verses that DO PROVE
some mean were NEVER MEANT to repent... and you just ignore them.
That speaks volumes.

.