Temporal Salvation?

[FreeGrace2]

Agreed:

NKJ Hebrews 5:9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

NKJ 2 Thessalonians 1:8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

NKJ 1 Peter 4:17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?

NKJ Romans 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"

Rom10:6 uses obedience & belief interchangeably. There is no Biblical Belief apart from obeying God

Do you understand what the Greek word for 'obey' here means?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Agreed.

When we understand that Biblical Belief and obedience to God cannot be separated from one another (except to emphasize one or the other and that emphasis would typically be obedience), then this all becomes pretty simple.

Well, it seems this post answers my previous question.

So, please, define what you mean by "obedience".

Biblical Belief is Faith-Obedience, which in the end is simply Faithfulness.

Apparently this answers my question. Faithfulness involves lifestyle. So you think lifestyle is involved in salvation.

At least you are being honest in your view about how to be saved; live your life right.

ἀπειθῶν is sometimes said to mean "disbelieve" & the lexicons do bring this out. But, the main definition is to disobey. FWIW, some time ago I went through all the verses that use this word, and I came out of that study seeing disobedience as the main meaning.

It seems you "see" a lot of things.

No Biblical Belief > condemnation/judgment/your word "damnation"
No Obedience to God > condemnation/judgment/your word "damnation"

John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 both say that it is those who "have not believed" that will be condemned.

Can you prove from any Greek lexicon that "believe" involves lifestyle behavior?

 

[TibiasDad]

Believers are commanded to beware of falling into unbelief & to exhort each other so they don't become hardened through the deceitfulness of sin/lawlessness/unrighteousness/disobedience

- Believers are partners/sharers of The Christ IF INDEED (strengthened conditional saying Believers can fail) we hold fast until the end.

This is the place where all of the OSAS or PoS in the case of Calvinism positions hit a very hard and high wall.

• How can one warn of something that is impossible to happen?
• Something that is certain and irreversible cannot have any sense of contingency or real conditional quality, and makes such a command meaningless.
  
• 
  Doug

 

[GDL]

So, please, define what you mean by "obedience".

Doing what God commands.

Since God commands us to believe upon the name of His Son, our belief in/with respect to the person Jesus Christ, is obedience to what God commands.

Apparently this answers my question. Faithfulness involves lifestyle. So you think lifestyle is involved in salvation.

At least you are being honest in your view about how to be saved; live your life right.

Using your word, but retaining my own intended meaning & scope, Biblical Faith is a lifestyle. Obeying God is a lifestyle. Faithfulness to God is a lifestyle.

The question would be how much have we lived that lifestyle when we first believed as commanded by God to believe? We have lived a lifestyle of Biblical Faith/Obedience to God/Faithfulness to God in that moment when we first believed/were obedient/were faithful to God's command to believe and no further as yet.

Your last sentence/assertion (no question mark) about goes way beyond what I've said so far. And, the full scope of Biblical Salvation is another discussion, which you & I have had elsewhere.

John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 both say that it is those who "have not believed" that will be condemned.

I addressed J3:18 at length a little earlier today. I haven't addressed 2Thes2:12 yet.

Can you prove from any Greek lexicon that "believe" involves lifestyle behavior?

All the lexicons really tell us is how to historically translate a word. Lexicons get us started. Then we get our full instruction on how God uses the word from analyzing all of His uses of it in Scripture and by His enlightening us as & when He sees fit.

Surely you know of Scripture that speaks of Biblical Faith as our lifestyle (again using your word and limiting it to what I may mean and say myself). If you don't, then let's narrow down on what "lifestyle" means to you (I see you already elaborating it as "behavior"). What I surely don't mean by it is Paul's "Works of Righteousness" for initial salvation.

 

[GDL]

This is the place where all of the OSAS or PoS in the case of Calvinism positions hit a very hard and high wall.

• How can one warn of something that is impossible to happen?
• Something that is certain and irreversible cannot have any sense of contingency or real conditional quality, and makes such a command meaningless.
  
• 
  Doug

Agree. This is one of the reasons I went through all of this.

The other reason is to make the case for the meaning of apeitheo mainly (and clearly in these verses) meaning disobedience (which [several of] the lexicons also show). I know the J3:36 argument re: this word and I side with it's meaning disobey. Even if I accepted "do not believe" I have no problem, because I see Faith & Obedience as 2 sides of the same coin as discussed openly. If no Faith is the emphasis - fine - then also disobedience. If disobedience is the emphasis - fine - then also no Faith.

 

[GDL]

John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 both say that it is those who "have not believed" that will be condemned.

I’m not entirely certain what your point is re: 2Thes2:12. I think you’ve brought it up many times as I recall.

If your point is that it says unbelief (literally “all the ones who did/do not believe”) results in condemnation/judgment, then yes it says this.

If your point is that J3:36 has to mean unbelief (instead of disobedience), because of John3:18 & 2Thes2:12, then no, it’s not a proof-text for apeitheo meaning unbelief.

I’ve addressed apeitheo in some detail as to why I see it meaning disobedience. I’ve also addressed in some detail why I see Biblical Belief in God & Obedience to God as 2 sides of the same coin & thus in many to most instances overlapping to virtually synonymous.

Do you want to go through 2Thes2:12 in context for something else, or is this apeitheo issue your point? If this is your point, then we are in disagreement about the meaning of apeitheo. For me this is not a proverbial deal-breaker.

As I said to Doug a few moments ago, if no Faith is the emphasis – fine - then also disobedience. If disobedience is the emphasis - fine - then also no Faith.

If you see importance in convincing me of your view, then please tell me why, look at all the uses of apeitheo at least in the NT (there are no too many) & state your case. I have most lexicons, so tell me what one(s) you’d like me to look at.

I will tell you that the Heb3 example I posted a little while ago, carries a lot of weight for me. Apistia means unbelief. Apeitheo means disobedience. There are some other thoughts about apeitheo, but they’re not yet important to this discussion & will likely only cloud the matter further.

 

[FreeGrace2]

This is the place where all of the OSAS or PoS in the case of Calvinism positions hit a very hard and high wall.

Please explain the "place" where my position "hits a very hard and high wall". Thanks.

How can one warn of something that is impossible to happen?

One can't. The warnings aren't about losing salvation, but about rewards. 1 Cor 3:15

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
So, please, define what you mean by "obedience".

Doing what God commands.

Thanks for your answer. Do you realize that you've just admitted that you consider one's LIFESTYLE a requirement for salvation?

Since God commands us to believe upon the name of His Son, our belief in/with respect to the person Jesus Christ, is obedience to what God commands.

Then to be clear, it is believing ONLY and not about one's lifestyle that is the condition for salvation?

Using your word, but retaining my own intended meaning & scope, Biblical Faith is a lifestyle. Obeying God is a lifestyle. Faithfulness to God is a lifestyle.

OK, got it. You do believe that you are saved by your LIFESTYLE.

That is works, my friend. Pure and simple. Live right and go to heaven. That's what the majority of the world believes. It's just that there are a very wide range of kinds of lifestyles that people think will save them.

Don't you realize that the Pharisees of Jesus' day thought the same thing you do??

The question would be how much have we lived that lifestyle when we first believed as commanded by God to believe?

Yes, I can see how that would very much be "the question". But it's not a question for me, because I KNOW that there is nothing I can do regarding lifestyle that will result in salvation. Jesus did it all. All I can do is receive what He promises. By faith.

We have lived a lifestyle of Biblical Faith/Obedience to God/Faithfulness to God in that moment when we first believed/were obedient/were faithful to God's command to believe and no further as yet.

I don't understand this sentence.

I addressed J3:18 at length a little earlier today. I haven't addressed 2Thes2:12 yet.

They both say the same thing. If you didn't address your Jn 8:18 comments to me, I didn't read it. So when you get around to 2 Thess 2:12, please include me.

All the lexicons really tell us is how to historically translate a word. Lexicons get us started. Then we get our full instruction on how God uses the word from analyzing all of His uses of it in Scripture and by His enlightening us as & when He sees fit.

That is unbiblical. Why then did God place His Holy Spirit in EVERY believer, and why did the Holy Spirit inspire this verse?

John 16:13 - But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

Surely you know of Scripture that speaks of Biblical Faith as our lifestyle (again using your word and limiting it to what I may mean and say myself).

It is important to understand that there are 2 kinds of "biblical faith".
1. saving faith. This is simply taking God at His word about what He says about His Son. That is trusting what God says. Trusting the gospel is true.

2. lifestyle faith. This is simply trusting God for your on-going needs. This is what Heb 3:19 refers to. Lifestyle faith doesn't save. It's what saved people need to be doing.

If you don't, then let's narrow down on what "lifestyle" means to you (I see you already elaborating it as "behavior").

Of course it is behavior. Just examine the lifestyle of the Exodus generation. They were a bunch of "maribah-ers".

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 both say that it is those who "have not believed" that will be condemned.

I’m not entirely certain what your point is re: 2Thes2:12. I think you’ve brought it up many times as I recall.

The point is simple. It is those people who "have not believed" in Christ who will be condemned. There are NO verses that state that anyone who "has ceased to believe" will be condemned.

If your point is that it says unbelief (literally “all the ones who did/do not believe”) results in condemnation/judgment, then yes it says this.

Yes, it sure does.

If your point is that J3:36 has to mean unbelief (instead of disobedience), because of John3:18 & 2Thes2:12, then no, it’s not a proof-text for apeitheo meaning unbelief.

When I mention Jn 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12, I don't have Jn 3:36 in mind at all.

The 2 verses I mention together proves that condemnation is for those who have not believed. No verse says anything about condemnation for those who, like the second soil, only believed for a while, and will face condemnation.

I’ve addressed apeitheo in some detail as to why I see it meaning disobedience. I’ve also addressed in some detail why I see Biblical Belief in God & Obedience to God as 2 sides of the same coin & thus in many to most instances overlapping to virtually synonymous.

Since there is a large number of verses that specifically say that salvation and eternal life are by believing in Christ, it is silly to try to argue that Jn 3:36 is about salvation depending upon lifestyle.

Do you want to go through 2Thes2:12 in context for something else, or is this apeitheo issue your point? If this is your point, then we are in disagreement about the meaning of apeitheo. For me this is not a proverbial deal-breaker.

My use of 2 Thess 2:12 is to show to whom condemnation is for; those who "have not believed".

Are you aware that the words "have not believed" CANNOT be applied to the example of the second soil? Because Jesus was clear that they DID believe.

If you see importance in convincing me of your view, then please tell me why, look at all the uses of apeitheo at least in the NT (there are no too many) & state your case. I have most lexicons, so tell me what one(s) you’d like me to look at.

I have no issue with apeitheo. Since there is a plethora of verses that specifically state that salvation and eternal life are obtained on the basis of believing/faith, I take Jn 3:36 as meaning "disbelieve", which is in alignment with all the other verses.

Because of Eph 2:8,9 and Rom 4;4,5 I reject the idea that salvation is based on lifestyle obedience.

I will tell you that the Heb3 example I posted a little while ago, carries a lot of weight for me.

If your post wasn't addressed to me, I missed it. I will tell you that Heb 3:19 isn't about losing salvation. Even Moses didn't get to enter the promised land. And the verses that describe his sin use "unbelief" to describe it. He failed at lifestyle faith, not saving faith. They are different.

 

[TibiasDad]

I must disagree with the statement that God "always brings believers to maturity". That means it is guaranteed. If that were true, there would be no need to even mention the issue of maturity. Or any warnings of straying.

There is no difference between your sense of guarantee and WordSword’s ultimately speaking. I have made the same argument as you against you in the past! There is no need to mention maturity or warn anyone if you are saved from the moment you believed regardless of what follows in your life choices.


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Agree. This is one of the reasons I went through all of this.

The other reason is to make the case for the meaning of apeitheo mainly (and clearly in these verses) meaning disobedience (which [several of] the lexicons also show). I know the J3:36 argument re: this word and I side with it's meaning disobey. Even if I accepted "do not believe" I have no problem, because I see Faith & Obedience as 2 sides of the same coin as discussed openly. If no Faith is the emphasis - fine - then also disobedience. If disobedience is the emphasis - fine - then also no Faith.

I agree completely!

Doug

 

[FreeGrace2]

There is no difference between your sense of guarantee and WordSword’s ultimately speaking.

What do you mean by my "sense of guarantee"? I don't have a different understanding of the word that what is found in any dictionary.

I will add that when God guarantees something, it WILL happen. If your "sense" is different, please explain.

I have made the same argument as you against you in the past! There is no need to mention maturity or warn anyone if you are saved from the moment you believed regardless of what follows in your life choices.
Doug

Of course there is a clear need to mention maturity, since it isn't a guarantee. And again, the warnings refer to God's painful discipline and losing out on eternal reward in heaven.

Neither maturity and rewards are guaranteed.

What is guaranteed is the believer's inheritance for the day of redemption, per Eph 1:13,14, which is based on "having believed" and being sealed with the Holy Spirit.

 

[GDL]

Take all of these statements first (highlights mine):

Thanks for your answer. Do you realize that you've just admitted that you consider one's LIFESTYLE a requirement for salvation?

Then to be clear, it is believing ONLY and not about one's lifestyle that is the condition for salvation?

OK, got it. You do believe that you are saved by your LIFESTYLE.

That is works, my friend. Pure and simple. Live right and go to heaven. That's what the majority of the world believes. It's just that there are a very wide range of kinds of lifestyles that people think will save them.

Don't you realize that the Pharisees of Jesus' day thought the same thing you do??

Yes, I can see how that would very much be "the question". But it's not a question for me, because I KNOW that there is nothing I can do regarding lifestyle that will result in salvation. Jesus did it all. All I can do is receive what He promises. By faith.

Now take the next part of my statement you quoted & then your response:

We have lived a lifestyle of Biblical Faith/Obedience to God/Faithfulness to God in that moment when we first believed/were obedient/were faithful to God's command to believe and no further as yet.

I don't understand this sentence.

The part of the statement you quoted is the crux of the matter here, and you don't understand it.

Because you don't understand it, you have misunderstood everything I said before it and you responded by telling me what works are and that I am essentially promoting a works salvation. I know what works are & this is why I mentioned Works of Righteousness at the end of my post and said:

Surely you know of Scripture that speaks of Biblical Faith as our lifestyle (again using your word and limiting it to what I may mean and say myself). If you don't, then let's narrow down on what "lifestyle" means to you (I see you already elaborating it as "behavior"). What I surely don't mean by it is Paul's "Works of Righteousness" for initial salvation.

It would have more efficient for us to do what I asked and narrow down this meaning of lifestyle.

I'll try to make the crux of the matter in my statements more clear for you to understand. Try to keep it in context of my entire statement:

Here's my entire statement (now highlighted) you excerpted from & did not understand:

Using your word, but retaining my own intended meaning & scope, Biblical Faith is a lifestyle. Obeying God is a lifestyle. Faithfulness to God is a lifestyle.

The question would be how much have we lived that lifestyle when we first believed as commanded by God to believe? We have lived a lifestyle of Biblical Faith/Obedience to God/Faithfulness to God in that moment when we first believed/were obedient/were faithful to God's command to believe and no further as yet.

So, I'll try to explain it better:

1) Is Faith a Work when we first believe that Jesus is The Christ? No, of course it's not.

2) Is Obedience to God a Work when we first believe that Jesus is The Christ? No, of course it's not. We've been commanded to believe - so when we first believe, we've also obeyed God. If Belief is not a Work, then neither is it a Work to obey God's command to Believe.

3) I've simply said that Faith-Obedience ultimately boils down to meaning Faithfulness. This comes from a lot of word studies on belief. Just think about it without prejudice. Belief + Obedience, or believing God and doing what He says is being Faithful to Him. So, if Faith-Obedience is not a Work, then neither is Faithfulness.

4) What I said & meant above that you don't understand, is that this first response of Faith-Obedience to God's command to believe upon the name of His Son, Jesus Christ is in effect our first meaningful step of Faithfulness to God.

God has so structured our interaction with Him, that we begin our walk in Christ as a first step in Faith-Obedience / Faithfulness. And this is not a Work on our part. He's simply structured it so we take our first step on the correct foot, so-to-speak. And from there our walk is supposed to be a continuation of the same Faith-Obedience / Faithfulness theme, ever-growing and becoming better & stronger at it by His Grace.

I know you don't like this language FG2. But I assure you that I know what Paul means by Works of Righteousness & I can assure you that there is nothing I'm saying here that equates to trying to earn my salvation by Works of Righteousness, which I have done.

Trying to be obedient to His Law for Righteousness is Works of Righteousness. Being obedient to His command to Believe in His Son, by Believing in His Son, is not trying to earn Righteousness nor Salvation. It's coming to the realization that there's nothing I can do but Believe (as He commands). And then letting His Word and some very basic logic inform me that I've just been faithful to Him by Believing in His Son as He commands. I've just become a son of faithful Abraham & a sibling of The Perfectly Faithful Christ, by my first faithful response to our Father, whether I knew it was faithfulness and obedience or not. And, it's by His work, His grace, His mercy, and so on that I was brought to that first step.

"Lifestyle" was your word. I attempted to accommodate you by explaining what I meant by "lifestyle." And all I meant was that when we first believe as commanded, we have by His Grace just taken our first step in the Christian lifestyle of Faith-Obedience / Faithfulness, whether we knew it or not. Nothing more. Nothing less. No Works here. Just interpreting His Word & letting it says what it says apart from the influences of camp-based soteriology - any camp.

BTW, I'm fine with backing off of the word "faithful" for now as it can express something more developed. I don't think it's necessary, but it's not all that important at this point. But Faith-Obedience is currently fixed in the Text the way I see it, and I'm actually surprised how it's not seen by so many. I think this is because all the hammering against works salvation has swung the pendulum too far.

Best not to proceed with other matters at this moment.

 

[GDL]

If your post wasn't addressed to me, I missed it. I will tell you that Heb 3:19

Post #700 for Heb3

Post #692 for John3:18

 

[TibiasDad]

What do you mean by my "sense of guarantee"? I don't have a different understanding of the word that what is found in any dictionary.

I will add that when God guarantees something, it WILL happen. If your "sense" is different, please explain.

Calvinism, which is WordSword's point of reference, would agree with you that a person is irreversibly saved at the moment they believe, but unlike you, that this belief must and necessarily will continue to the end! Thus, your sense of guarantee is dynamically different than WS. It ends up the same, but the process, to my mind, is different. But both say the same thing that the guarantee is enforced at the same point of time, at the point of believing. So if you make the "maturity/warning argument against WS, you are making it against yourself!

Doug

 

[GDL]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 both say that it is those who "have not believed" that will be condemned.

I've looked at & commented on John3:18 - post #692.

A bit late here, but a take for now:

NKJ 2 Thessalonians 2:12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2Thes2:12 paraphrased:

- Context is eschatological at the time of writing.
- 2:10 some who will perish are being deceived because they did not receive the love of the truth in order to be saved - So love of the truth is the basis for salvation and not perishing at this time of eschatological judgment & salvation under discussion.
- 2:11b to those who are perishing because they did not receive the love of the truth to be saved, God will send a strong delusion so they believe the lie - which I take to be all the unrighteous deception, signs & wonders of the lawless one per 2:9-11a
- 2:12 In being deluded by God to believe the lie, those who did not believe the truth but has please in unrighteousness will be condemned/judged.
- 2:13 God chose others for salvation (or as first-fruits for salvation per other manuscripts) in/by sanctification of [the] Spirit and belief (noun) of truth
- 2:14 [God] called them to this through the good news of Paul, et.al. for obtaining the glory of "our Lord Jesus Christ"
- 2:15 Believers are commanded to stand firm and hold the Apostolic traditions they were taught. in 2:3 they are commanded to not let anyone deceive/seduce them about this coming judgment.

SO:

- Some chosen by God for salvation by sanctification of the Spirit and belief of truth believed the Gospel
- there is an eschatological event to take place and the Believers are commanded to stand firm to what they've been taught & to not be deceived by anyone (interesting how these warnings typically take place & why they do if there is no danger of falling away and in this case ending up in this judgment)
- Others did not receive the love of the Truth and will not be saved from this judgment but will perish. God will make certain they are deluded so they believe the lie of the lawless one and are judged.
- the timeless aorist tense verb in 2:12 "did not believe" timewise is tied firstly to the time God sends them the delusion to believe the lie, and secondarily to the aorist tense verb "did not receive the love of the truth for their salvation."

This lack of receipt seems to say they [never] received, before the delusion, the love of the truth (which 2:13-14 ties to the Gospel) .

The question does arise however, that since the command to not be deceived (verb exapatao) in 2:3 can tie to the "all unrighteous deception" (noun apate) (same root words) going on in 2:9-10 - what would happen to believers who in disobedience did get deceived/seduced, and did not stand firm in this time, and thus may not have actually received, or received and didn't retain the love of the truth - the belief of the Gospel - and were not believing, but took pleasure in unrighteousness when God sends the delusion? This would take us back to all the discussion about belief being ongoing vs. temporary.

Either way, judgment/condemnation is for not believing and taking pleasure in unrighteousness (which is sin & contrary to Biblical Belief) at the time God sends the active delusion for them to believe the lie.

As usual, these belief issues are not as cut and dry as we may like them to be, and these warning type commands are found frequently enough in Scripture to give one (me at least) pause in interpreting.

 

[TibiasDad]

OK, got it. You do believe that you are saved by your LIFESTYLE.

That is works, my friend. Pure and simple. Live right and go to heaven. That's what the majority of the world believes. It's just that there are a very wide range of kinds of lifestyles that people think will save them.

Don't you realize that the Pharisees of Jesus' day thought the same thing you do??

If GDL is saying what I think he's saying, and I believe he is, you are completely misrepresenting what he, and I, believe and teach. Good works are the result of true belief and as true belief continues good works continue. If good works do not continue, this can only mean that true belief (the necessary prerequisite for salvation/eternal life) is not present any longer. If the necessary prerequisite for salvation and eternal life is not there, then neither is salvation/eternal life!

You are changing the requirement from believing (ala John 3:16), to a single moment of belief. The "whoever is believing" of John 3:16 and so many other places cannot abide such a dramatic shift of meaning. The use of the aorist tense cannot establish that drastically different meaning.

It is not works to be or stay saved, good works are the evidence that you are indeed saved and guaranteed to receive eternal life. Whoever is believing, not whoever was, or ever has believed.

Doug

 

[GDL]

If GDL is saying what I think he's saying, and I believe he is,

Nice 1st class conditional structure!

If I can clarify anything, please let me know.

 

[FreeGrace2]

GDL said: ↑
We have lived a lifestyle of Biblical Faith/Obedience to God/Faithfulness to God in that moment when we first believed/were obedient/were faithful to God's command to believe and no further as yet.

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
I don't understand this sentence.

The part of the statement you quoted is the crux of the matter here, and you don't understand it.

Because you don't understand it, you have misunderstood everything I said before it

OK, let's unpack this. First, what DOESN'T MAKE SENSE is the end of your sentence:
when we first believed/were obedient/were faithful to God's command to believe and no further as yet.

So, once you explain what you mean by "no further as yet", your sentence should make sense.

I FULLY understand your works-based system of salvation. You've been clear on that.

and you responded by telling me what works are and that I am essentially promoting a works salvation. I know what works are & this is why I mentioned Works of Righteousness at the end of my post and said:

"Surely you know of Scripture that speaks of Biblical Faith as our lifestyle (again using your word and limiting it to what I may mean and say myself). If you don't, then let's narrow down on what "lifestyle" means to you (I see you already elaborating it as "behavior"). What I surely don't mean by it is Paul's "Works of Righteousness" for initial salvation."

I've already addressed your unbiblical definition of "biblical faith". It appears that you are conflating saving faith with lifestyle faith, and call it "biblical faith". Nice try, but no dice.

Saving faith is putting your full trust (and nothing else) in the Person and Work of Jesus Christ on your behalf to save YOU.

Lifestyle faith is putting your full trust in God's daily provisions for you.

No one gets saved from lifestyle faith. In fact, ONLY believers can have lifestyle faith. God isn't obligated to provide specifically for any unbeliever, as they are not His children.

And Heb 3:19 includes Moses himself.

YES! Moses is described as having "unbelief", which kept him OUT OF the promised land.

But this refers to lifestyle faith. And he screwed up just once as far as the Bible says.

"So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief."

Yet, how many pastors and others read 3:19 as "unbelief that keeps people out of heaven". That verse isn't about saving faith at all.

It would have more efficient for us to do what I asked and narrow down this meaning of lifestyle.

Scroll back up a bit, where I did define it and gave an example.

1) Is Faith a Work when we first believe that Jesus is The Christ? No, of course it's not.
2) Is Obedience to God a Work when we first believe that Jesus is The Christ? No, of course it's not. We've been commanded to believe - so when we first believe, we've also obeyed God. If Belief is not a Work, then neither is it a Work to obey God's command to Believe.
3) I've simply said that Faith-Obedience ultimately boils down to meaning Faithfulness.

Again, you are guilty of conflating saving faith with lifestyle faith.

This comes from a lot of word studies on belief. Just think about it without prejudice. Belief + Obedience, or believing God and doing what He says is being Faithful to Him. So, if Faith-Obedience is not a Work, then neither is Faithfulness.

Unless you are able to discern between saving faith and lifestyle faith, it will not be possible to have a meaningful discussion.

Best not to proceed with other matters at this moment.

Agreed! Until you realize the difference between saving faith and lifestyle faith, further discussion will be impossible.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
What do you mean by my "sense of guarantee"? I don't have a different understanding of the word that what is found in any dictionary.

I will add that when God guarantees something, it WILL happen. If your "sense" is different, please explain.

Calvinism, which is WordSword's point of reference, would agree with you that a person is irreversibly saved at the moment they believe, but unlike you, that this belief must and necessarily will continue to the end!

It is this point, and some others, where I part company with the Calvinists. The Bible very plainlt speaks of apostasy.

Thus, your sense of guarantee is dynamically different than WS. It ends up the same, but the process, to my mind, is different. But both say the same thing that the guarantee is enforced at the same point of time, at the point of believing.

This is interesting! Given that you believe that salvation can be lost, you now say that the guarantee is enforced at the point of believing. This is contradictory.

So if you make the "maturity/warning argument against WS, you are making it against yourself!
Doug

When you define "WS" I'll be able to respond. Thanks.