Temporal Salvation?

[FreeGrace2]

Correct, I should have cited. See pages 573-581 for the Perfect Tense. You'll need to read all of it to cover what I've said in summary form. Please be sure to correct me & cite your specific reference, if you think what I said is incorrect.

Thanks. I'll look it over and get back to you if I have comments.

Re: murder, per your example, is a murderer always a murderer?

That's NOT the issue. IF you EVER did murder someone, can you say you "have not murdered someone"? Of course you can't. Because you DID murder someone.

You've added an irrelevant "always" concept. That isn't in the phrase "has not believed".

Is murder a fair example for belief - once a believer always a believer, no matter what?

Yes, it is a fair example to SHOW that 'has not' means 'never'. They are synonymous.

Now, IF IF IF there is a time frame in the context, then you'd have a point. But since there isn't a time frame in the context of EITHER verse, you don't have a point.

Since I've read your take on Luke8:13 I don't think you believe a believer is always a believer no matter what.

Here is exactly what I believe, which comes from Scripture.

A believer may not always believe. That is clear from Scripture.

What you cannot prove from Scripture is that God treats a believer who ceases to believe as an unbeliever.

Don't you realize how much has to be undone? I've already addressed this. And the Bible is totally silent on ANY such UN-doing.

I also know you think a believer who falls away still has eternal life.

I do because of what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life. So your "still has eternal life" comment shows that you cannot believe what Jesus said in John 10:28. Quite sad.

I put forth some work on #648 to show why I don't agree with you.

Thanks, but no thanks. Your opinion does not hold sway over what Jesus said.

What Jesus said TRUMPS every opinion.

My only opinion in this matter is that what Jesus said is the truth. But even that isn't an opinion. John 14:6 says He is the truth.

So, there you go.

 

[GDL]

Your example to me (highlighting mine):

Well, there's a bit of discernment! Yes, there is a difference.

I'll give you an example from everyday life on this planet.

Getting born is "entirely different" than growing up into a well adjusted adult.

Do you see the difference?

What you have done by your conflation is claim that getting born RESULTS in becoming a well adjusted adult.

But everyone else knows better than that.

Your next statement as to why MY example fails:

Here's the deal, Doug. There is no comparison here between being born again with being born. Because a person physically born WILL eventually die. Heb 9:27

But, a person born AGAIN (spiritually), will NEVER die spiritually. So your example fails. Epically.

Doug's the other guy who also knows Scripture & Greek & English better than you do.

"getting born" was your example.

I'm beginning to think we're chatting with Joe Biden a.k.a. FreeGrace2.

If I'm correct (1st class) re: abiding for eternal life per my post #648, then your entire soteriology falls apart, because there is no EL apart from abiding as commanded - your momentary, one-time faith for EL is proven wrong - Belief must be ongoing for EL (which as I see it, Doug, WordSword, JLB, and I agree is the Truth of that topic).

Beyond that, your 2 faiths is beyond absurd - it actually caused me type out & not delete "dumb". By continually repeating it and asserting your new fictional slogan as fact, all you disclose is your locked-in absurdity, which you obviously think wins you arguments at this table.

Astounding, actually

<sigh>

<deeper sigh>

 

[GDL]

An apostate that goes to heaven? A heavenly apostate=oxymoron! An apostate, by definition, is not only not building with quality materials on the foundation, it is denying the foundation itself! He who denies the Son is denied to the Father by the Son! (Matt 10:33) If you think that one who denies the Son (who is an antichrist 1 John 2:22 ), and thus does not have the Son or the Father (1 John 2:23 ), and completely abandons his trust in the gospel actually still receives God's blessing then I can only shake my head and leave you to your own delusions. Forget the Greek, the absolute absurdity of denying the equation above is not only a slap in the face of our God given rationality, it denies the very character of God's holiness as well as his love for his children: for you are essentially saying, hypothetically speaking, that one who believes for a while, but then becomes one that persecutes believers and puts them to death, without repentance, would be received into heaven right alongside of those whom they killed is an insult to those who were faithful unto death!

Coming back to Greek, a quick search of the pertinent instances of ἀφίστημι (being referred to as apostasy in these discussions):

NKJ Lk. 8:13 "But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

NKJ Lk. 13:27 "But He will say,`I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.'

NKJ 1 Tim. 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,

NKJ 1 Tim. 6:5 useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself.

NKJ 2 Tim. 2:19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity (adikia - unrighteousness)."

NKJ Heb. 3:12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;

Using apostatize as the translation: To explain apostatizing from belief, apostatizing from the faith, apostatizing from the living God - as something that allows such a person to retain the gift of Eternal Life, is quite something.

Looking through the lexicons makes the issue even more clear: to revolt, withdraw, desert, fall away, rebel, reject authority, shun, renounce.

Add to this that EL is clearly something for only those who abide, how is the apostatizing view to even remotely be given the time of day - at least in this discussion to date?

It's also interesting how the Lord uses the same word to command us to apostatize from: men of corrupt minds destitute of truth; unrighteousness (sin) if we're going to name His name; and ultimately from Him for be workers of/for unrighteousness (that He commanded us to apostatize from).

This is a serious word and action we're dealing with. I'm in agreement that the consequences for apostatizing/revolting/deserting/rebelling/rejecting the authority of God/ shunning/renouncing are beyond divine discipline.

Thanks for your quoted input.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Doug's the other guy who also knows Scripture & Greek & English better than you do.

So?

"getting born" was your example.

Only in the example of growing up a well adjusted adult. There is no linkage between the two. Or do you disagree?

I'm beginning to think we're chatting with Joe Biden a.k.a. FreeGrace2.

That was rather pitiful.

If I'm correct (1st class)

No, more like 2nd class.

re: abiding for eternal life per my post #648, then your entire soteriology falls apart, because there is no EL apart from abiding as commanded - your momentary, one-time faith for EL is proven wrong

You keep making these grandiose claims but you have no evidence for such. I don't care about your post citing. Keep the context by YOU going back and capturing whatever quote you think you need to make your point.

If my soteriology "falls apart", then explain it, point by point. Let's see if you can do that.

- Belief must be ongoing for EL (which as I see it, Doug, WordSword, JLB, and I agree is the Truth of that topic).

Oh, yeah, now there's a group.

Again, just because more uses of 'believe' are in the PIA doesn't mean the action must continue in order for the results to continue. I've asked this over and over. And guess what: none of your group can respond with an answer.

In fact, Jesus' use of the PIA in Luke 8:13 refutes your claim.

Beyond that, your 2 faiths is beyond absurd

Well, so much for expecting you to even read my posts. I fully explained in my previous post to you that the issue is the objective of faith.

Believing in Jesus for salvation is called saving faith.
Believing God will provide for daily provisions is lifestyle faith.

it actually caused me type out & not delete "dumb".

Ad hominem is forbidden on this site. But I couldn't care less when someone is low enough to use them. So knock yourself out using them.

By continually repeating it and asserting your new fictional slogan as fact, all you disclose is your locked-in absurdity, which you obviously think wins you arguments at this table.

It is your theology that is fiction.

Salvation is guaranteed the MOMENT one believes. And eternal life is possessed the MOMENT one believes. The Bible says so clearly.

And Jesus destroys your loss of salvation fiction in John 10:28 when He said recipients of eternal life shall NEVER perish.

And there are no conditions between receiving EL and the result of never perishing.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Coming back to Greek, a quick search of the pertinent instances of ἀφίστημι (being referred to as apostasy in these discussions):

NKJ Lk. 8:13 "But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Have you ever thought of looking up apostasy in a dictionary? It means to no longer believe what once was believed.

Proves you wrong.

Using apostatize as the translation: To explain apostatizing from belief, apostatizing from the faith, apostatizing from the living God - as something that allows such a person to retain the gift of Eternal Life, is quite something.

Actually, it is unbelievable when one rejects what Jesus said in Jn 10:28.

And, Paul doesn't give you guys a pass either. He wrote this:

Rom 8-
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,
39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The red words refute your ideas. iow, there is NOTHING in the future that can separate a saved person from the love of Christ.

So now, go ahead and explain how sending a child of God isn't separation of the love of Christ. I can't wait.

Looking through the lexicons makes the issue even more clear: to revolt, withdraw, desert, fall away, rebel, reject authority, shun, renounce.

Yep. All those.

Add to this that EL is clearly something for only those who abide, how is the apostatizing view to even remotely be given the time of day - at least in this discussion to date?

"clearly something...". Ha. That's what you guys have repeatedly FAILED to prove.

 

[TibiasDad]

By "natural results of..." you are clearly insinuating that good works are GUARANTEED.

No, FG, a guarantee would only be if belief were irreversible, if it was always active. Plus, you are not taking the human will and volition into account. That is why we have admonitions and warnings, because we are responsible to choose whom we will believe and what we will do. Paul gives examples of the natural results and expectations for being saved and unsaved:

Rom 6:19...Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. 20When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Paul, remember, is writing to the Church in Rome. And he sets no restrictions on the parameters of those who die, save one, being free from the control of righteousness, that is living according to the flesh/sinful nature. And he sets no restrictions on those who receive eternal life save one, they are those whose lives reap holiness.

Rom 6:23 is certainly one of the more iconic verses of Scripture, and it is simply a two fold summary of the meaning of the verses preceding it: the natural result of a habit of sin is death (no matter who is doing it), and the natural result of living according to the Sprit, is holiness, the result of which is the gift of eternal life.

(And lest you think that living according to the Spirit constitutes some kind of "earning" or merit based action, for, again, God can never be obligated to man for anything that man does, so that makes anything merit based regarding salvation an impossibility. Absolutely everything positive that God gives us is graciously given. So the gift of eternal is a good thing, and it is a gift, regardless of whether there are requirements and expectations of those who receive the gift. It's a gift, not because we don't have to do anything, because clearly we do have to do at least one thing, believe, but because God didn't have to offer us any hope in the first place.)

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

I guess it wouldn't occur to you that your own writing challenges the comprehension of the reader, huh

I am a published author of three books in the last 15 years (two Christian novels and one theological/Bible study based non-fiction, traditionally published, not self published) and have had both short stories and poetry published, as well as done editing two novels for another author. I have been doing form discussions for a long time, and you are the first person to ever have difficulty understanding my posts on any kind of a consistent basis. (I mean there are always times when we don't say things in the best way, but you appear to be having a consistent difficulty.)


Doug

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"By "natural results of..." you are clearly insinuating that good works are GUARANTEED."

No, FG, a guarantee would only be if belief were irreversible, if it was always active.

It appears you really don't understand your own predicament.

You claim that the "natural results of true faith are good works", yet out of the other side of your mouth you admit that belief can be reversed.

So, how does that work, exactly? How can a reversal of belief be considered good works? Have you even thought through your views?

If good works were the natural results of true belief, then there wouldn't be any reversal of said belief. Because true belief can't revert and be a "good work".

Plus, you are not taking the human will and volition into account. That is why we have admonitions and warnings, because we are responsible to choose whom we will believe and what we will do.

It seems apparent that you do NOT understand your predicament.

If good works are the natural result of true belief, then there CAN'T be any reversal of belief.

You're just trying to have it both ways.

Paul gives examples of the natural results and expectations for being saved and unsaved:

Rom 6:19...Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. 20When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

No, there are no "natural results of true belief" here. There ARE choices to make, to be sure.

(And lest you think that living according to the Spirit constitutes some kind of "earning" or merit based action, for, again, God can never be obligated to man for anything that man does

I've already addressed this, but it needs to be said again. God's salvation, blessings and eternal rewards is based on His own promises. iow, He has obligated Himself.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"I guess it wouldn't occur to you that your own writing challenges the comprehension of the reader, huh"

I am a published author of three books in the last 15 years (two Christian novels and one theological/Bible study based non-fiction, traditionally published, not self published) and have had both short stories and poetry published, as well as done editing two novels for another author.

I've read a number of books that were impossible to understand. Now, what was your point here?

I have been doing form discussions for a long time, and you are the first person to ever have difficulty understanding my posts on any kind of a consistent basis.

Let's not inflate your opinions. When I don't understand a statement or paragraph, I say so. I've had to ask you for clarification on a few occasions.

(I mean there are always times when we don't say things in the best way, but you appear to be having a consistent difficulty.)
Doug

You are free to think whatever you want to think, but I will continue to call out your unclear sentences when I read them.

 

[TibiasDad]

So

In your post to GDL, you referred to him by my name.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

It appears you really don't understand your own predicament.

You claim that the "natural results of true faith are good works", yet out of the other side of your mouth you admit that belief can be reversed.

So, how does that work, exactly? How can a reversal of belief be considered good works? Have you even thought through your views?

If good works were the natural results of true belief, then there wouldn't be any reversal of said belief. Because true belief can't revert and be a "good work".

1) If a person is believing, they will do the things that they have come to understand God asks of them, i.e., love others as Christ has loved them, and all the things that God commands us to do are good things! So, yes the natural results of a believers responses to God's commands are good in nature of their character!

2) This fact does not preclude one from disbelieving, either temporarily or permanently. And any action that is not done from a point of belief/obedience is sin, and therefore, not good!

3) You have neglected, whether inadvertently or purposely I do not know, what I now mention for at least the second time, the volition of man. That is why we are so strongly admonished and encouraged to "live by the Spirit" throughout the NT writings and equally commanded and warned to "not live according to the sinful nature". We choose which master we will listen to, and therein is both the beauty and bane of the Christian walk. If we listen to and believe the Spirit, only good can follow and fruits of holiness will grow into eternal life. But if we listen to the sinful nature and believe the lie that "you will not die", it always produces bad fruit, and ends in death when fully grown. We are the ones that choose to believe or disbelieve at every juncture in life. Choosing the Spirit will result in meeting the full requirements of the law, and we will live, choosing the sinful nature will always end in death if not repented of of stopped!
We must learn to walk the walk of faith, and it will always take time to reach maturity, but Paul's closing words to Timothy in his final letter are priceless, (as all final words should be):

2 Tim 3:14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the servant of God a may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

I've read a number of books that were impossible to understand. Now, what was your point here?

As have I, but that was not the author's fault, but my own lack of ability. In other words I don't blame the author, I blame my own ignorance and stupidity!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

I've already addressed this, but it needs to be said again. God's salvation, blessings and eternal rewards is based on His own promises. iow, He has obligated Himself.

I agree completely, and he has also determined the terms by which he has obligated himself, and those terms by which he is obligated are to those "who are believing" in his Son!

By the way, it also works with regard to negative pronouncements. So when Jesus says if you (his disciples and other followers that heard him, and by extension us) disown the Son, the Son will disown you before the Father (and the Father will do the bidding of the Son). So you would have God caught between two promises that would place him in a position of breaking a vowed promise, either not disavowing one who has disavowed him, or not giving eternal life to one who at one time believed!


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

In fact, Jesus' use of the PIA in Luke 8:13 refutes your claim.

And just how does it do that! I certainly am not saying that believing cannot be a temporary experience, indeed it can. (WordSword would disagree with me on this point, and I think JLB and GDL would agree with me, though I do not presume to speak for them.) My claim is not that belief can't be abandoned, but that the abandoning of belief dissolves the one necessary element that obligates God to himself to give eternal life. If belief is non-existent God has no obligation to give eternal life.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Let's not inflate your opinions.

How am I inflating my own opinion. I alone know if someone has ever complained about my ability to write, and I alone know how often that has happened. You are the first that has ever complained about not being able to understand what I am saying!

Doug

 

[JLB777]

I said:
"Why don't you tell that to Jesus, who said in the clearest of words that recipients of eternal life shall never perish."

Where did your "if" come from? It's not in v.27 or v.28. So quit making up stuff.


Whatza matter. Did you tell Jesus, and just don't like His answer?

Again, there is no "if" in either verse. So quit making up stuff.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28



The condition for being “His sheep” and therefore receiving eternal life because we are not snatched out of His hand, is plainly stated.


The condition:

Hear My Voice that results is following Me.


The result of meeting the condition:

Receiving eternal life.


If means there is a condition.


Do sheep who disregard His Voice, and wander away from Him receive the same eternal life as the obedient sheep who did follow Him?



Jesus answers that question for us by teaching us the truth.



“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

• Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’

• I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

His sheep who become lost, need salvation, by repenting and turning back to Him to be reconciled, and restored.


His sheep who become lost have returned to being sinners in need of repentance.



Therefore IF we hear His voice and follow Him, we will receive eternal life.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9




JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

1) If a person is believing, they will do the things that they have come to understand God asks of them, i.e., love others as Christ has loved them, and all the things that God commands us to do are good things! So, yes the natural results of a believers responses to God's commands are good in nature of their character!

You missed the point. You said the "natural results of true belief" were good works. Then, how does loss of faith even occur in a person who actually did believe?

And remember that your argument is that believers (true belief) who cease to believe cease to be saved. So you've got a conflict with your own views.

2) This fact does not preclude one from disbelieving, either temporarily or permanently. And any action that is not done from a point of belief/obedience is sin, and therefore, not good!

You're just ignoring your problem of contradiction.

If good works are the results of true belief, then how can true belief cease?

3) You have neglected, whether inadvertently or purposely I do not know, what I now mention for at least the second time, the volition of man.

I've not ignored it. You're ignoring your contradiction. How is free will relevant IF IF IF your claim that "the results of true belief are good works"?

Ceasing to believe sure isn't a good work. You're conflicted and you don't even realize it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I agree completely, and he has also determined the terms by which he has obligated himself, and those terms by which he is obligated are to those "who are believing" in his Son!

So, the aorist tense means pretty much nothing to you then.

There are no verses that warn about loss of salvation is one ceases to believe.

By the way, it also works with regard to negative pronouncements. So when Jesus says if you (his disciples and other followers that heard him, and by extension us) disown the Son, the Son will disown you before the Father (and the Father will do the bidding of the Son). So you would have God caught between two promises that would place him in a position of breaking a vowed promise, either not disavowing one who has disavowed him, or not giving eternal life to one who at one time believed!
Doug

2 Tim 2:12 clears up and explains what Jesus said in Matt. The Greek word in 2 Tim 2 doesn't mean "disown" but rather "deny". And in context, what is denied is the privilege of "reigning with Him". Pretty simple, really.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"In fact, Jesus' use of the PIA in Luke 8:13 refutes your claim."

And just how does it do that!

Easy. You claim belief must continue in order to remain saved. If that were true, Jesus would have made the point, either in that parable or somewhere else in Scripture, but you know as well as I do that no such verse exists.

Jesus showed that PIA belief doesn't necessarily continue. He said nothing about losing salvation if it doesn't continue.

My claim is not that belief can't be abandoned, but that the abandoning of belief dissolves the one necessary element that obligates God to himself to give eternal life.

And this is your achilles heel. This is such an important issue, that, if true, would necessitate the Bible to make that point very clearly.

So where is your very clear verse that supports your claim? No where.

If belief is non-existent God has no obligation to give eternal life.
Doug

Except, once eternal life HAS BEEN GIVEN, it's a done deal, Doug. Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

So, from the MOMENT Jesus gives the gift of etenral life, the recipient shall never perish.

But you just don't believe that, do you?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Why don't you tell that to Jesus, who said in the clearest of words that recipients of eternal life shall never perish."

Where did your "if" come from? It's not in v.27 or v.28. So quit making up stuff.

Whatza matter. Did you tell Jesus, and just don't like His answer?

Again, there is no "if" in either verse. So quit making up stuff.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

The condition for being “His sheep” and therefore receiving eternal life because we are not snatched out of His hand, is plainly stated.

You're just making up stuff again. There is NO CONDITION stated. The verses are very plainly stated, and there is NO CONDITION stated.

The condition:
Hear My Voice that results is following Me.

There is NO CONDITION STATED.

If means there is a condition.

OK, now you're on track. So, where is the "IF IF IF" in either v.27 or v.28?

Do sheep who disregard His Voice, and wander away from Him receive the same eternal life as the obedient sheep who did follow Him?

What a ridiculous question! The very FACT that Jesus describes recipients of eternal life as His own sheep, proves that they are ALREADY saved. Salvation and eternal life are obstained the MOMENT a person believes in Him for it.

Jesus answers that question for us by teaching us the truth.

Jack Nickelson once said, "you don't know the truth!!"