Temporal Salvation?

[GDL]

I think Basil's message is that obedience flows from love. This is what Adam was missing, in fact, and is the main virtue that God's been endeavoring to cultivate in man from the beginning as love literally defines man's justice-and this is why the Greatest Commandments are what they are and why Paul would say in 1 Cor 13:13:
"And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."

And I think it's interesting to consider that the Greatest Commandments are the only ones that cannot be faked-I can obey externally for the wrong motivations but one either loves or they don't-even if we may love to varying degrees of intensity.

And John would add:
1 John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. (1 Jn. 5:1-3 NKJ)

I agree that even from this angle this cannot be faked, let alone that faking something before the ultimate Judge can even be a consideration. The objective criteria for love, though, is certainly something to self-evaluate by, to whatever degree we are capable at any given point in our process. And, under subjection to His Grace & in Christ in the Salvation process you have mentioned elsewhere (thanks for that BTW), we know that whatever criteria we are to be judged by, the way to pass judgment to whatever degree, has been provided for & solidly established.

So, whether we place love before obedience, or obedience before love, or place them side by side, it seems the end result will be there as He takes us through the process to get us there. As I evaluate myself over the years, I see the last clause in 5:3 becoming more experientially clear along the lines of the parallel of loving righteousness & hating lawlessness as He does.

 

[WordSword]

Yes, the elect are the elect. We just don't know who they are with 100% certainty-who will persevere and who will not,

We can know for certain concerning ourselves but not for others, only God can do that, which is the point of security (Rom 8:16; 1Jo 5:13).

Concerning salvation-in light of our weaknesses, limitations and sinfulness. A degree of humility is in order here. God is infinitely trustworthy and true while we're the wildcard in it all.

There's nothing one can do to effect nor annual redemption, thus salvation is not affected by what we do, because what we do merely manifests what we are (regenerate or unregenerate).

I take it to me he's striving, as the narrative implies. Otherwise he's being more than a bit redundant, no?

To me, the "prize" for which Paul "pressed (strive - Phl 3:14)" for wasn't salvation, this he already had, but for the rewards Jesus brings with Him (Rev 22:12), which did not "burn up" (1Co 3:15).

Why should the attributes or virtues be incommunicable to creatures?

God's attributes, such as holiness, righteousness, justification, sanctification, etc. cannot originate with man.

 

[fhansen]

We can know for certain concerning ourselves but not for others, only God can do that, which is the point of security (Rom 8:16; 1Jo 5:13).

No, we can't predict with absolute certainty if we'll persevere or not. And that's why all such encouragement regarding assurance is also balanced by many, many verses regarding the need for a believer to persevere, to be vigilant, to strive, to keep the commandments, to love, to be holy, to invest their talents, to remain in Christ, to live by the Spirit and not the flesh, to do good, to refrain from sin, etc, etc. generally with loss of eternal life at stake.

There's nothing one can do to effect nor annual redemption, thus salvation is not affected by what we do, because what we do merely manifests what we are (regenerate or unregenerate)

.
Of course it is! We die all over again when we participate in "sin that leads to death", sin that is ugly enough to oppose and destroy love in us, sin that amounts to a rejection of Christ and a mocking of all that He did.

To me, the "prize" for which Paul "pressed (strive - Phl 3:14)" for wasn't salvation, this he already had, but for the rewards Jesus brings with Him (Rev 22:12), which did not "burn up" (1Co 3:15).

Right, doesn't read that way at all tho. Scripture doesn't have a great deal to say about the "prize thing" as I see it.

God's attributes, such as holiness, righteousness, justification, sanctification, etc. cannot originate with man.

Of course not. Everything originates with God. Man's one little job is to allow Him to do His work; that freedom is what allowed Adam to fall and that same freedom is what God appeals to and coaxes and seeks to move to a rightly ordered choice now, even as grace is absolutely essential, to help us rise again. Jesus tells us in John 15:5: "Apart from Me you can do nothing." He tells us that so we'll choose to be, and to remain, with Him.

 

[5thKingdom]

I was looking through here again and realized I'm not sure what you mean by "of course not." Thanks.

I think this was my comment:


Of course not.
If eternal salvation is "eternal"...
then what part of eternal do we not understand?


Jim

 

[TibiasDad]

We can have a very strong level of assurance, based on His trustworthy promises and our responses to them, how well we remain faithful evidenced by our fruits, the most important of which is love. But the words of Scripture can be hyperbolic encouragement balanced by warnings and admonitions.

Yes, we can have every assurance for several reasons:

• Because our faith is in his integrity to keep his promises. Gen 15:6
• Because we have been set free from the law of sin and death and can now fully meet the requirements of the law by living by the Spirit. Rom 8:3-4
• And because we have been given "everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires." 2 Peter 1:3-4
• And that, "For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins. Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." 2 Peter 1:5-11

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Is it a sensible truism that one can be eternally saved and then not eternally saved? Thus being temporarily saved from “everlasting punishment” (Mat 25:46) is clearly a concept of an oxymoron?

Is the fact that we are born into a condition that will make us eternally damned but that we can become eternally saved a sensible truism? Is that an oxymoron Then why can't we be reborn into an eternal salvation and then become dead again in sin and be eternally damned again? If we are able to not believe and then believe, we can believe and then not believe!

Doug

 

[FreeGrace2]

Is the fact that we are born into a condition that will make us eternally damned but that we can become eternally saved a sensible truism? Is that an oxymoron

No.

Then why can't we be reborn into an eternal salvation and then become dead again in sin and be eternally damned again?

Because God's Word guarantees that we can't.

First, Jesus taught in plain and straightforward words that a believer possesses eternal life in John 5:24 and 6:47. Then He taught that He is the Giver of the gift of eternal life in John 10:28. And the result of being given eternal life is that the possessor shall never perish. Also John 10:28.

Those given eternal life shall never perish.

But if you don't want to believe Jesus' words, how about Paul's words?

Eph 1:13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed (aorist), you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

The red words are the MOMENT one believes in Christ for salvation.

The blue words are the result of having believed in Christ for salvation.

If we are able to not believe and then believe, we can believe and then not believe!

Yes. But so what? Where is any Scripture that says in plain and straightforward words that salvation can be lost?

Jesus noted that there are believers who only "believe for a while" and then fall away from their faith, in Luke 8:13. But He never said anything about losing salvation if one only believes for a while.

So, why should anyone believe that losing faith results in losing salvation?

Besides, if that were true and could be found in Scripture, it would contradict the very plain and straightforward words in John 10:28 and Eph 1:13,14.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Is the fact that we are born into a condition that will make us eternally damned but that we can become eternally saved a sensible truism? Is that an oxymoron Then why can't we be reborn into an eternal salvation and then become dead again in sin and be eternally damned again? If we are able to not believe and then believe, we can believe and then not believe!

Doug

2 Tim 2:13~~New American Standard Bible
If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

Eph 5:30~~New American Standard Bible
because we are members of His body.
New King James Version
For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones.

John 10:28~~New American Standard Bible
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

 

[Gr8Grace]

If we are able to not believe and then believe, we can believe and then not believe!

Yes, we can have every assurance for several reasons:

• Because our faith is in his integrity to keep his promises. Gen 15:6

 

[bcbsr]

The most understandable and encouraging attribute concerning salvation is that of its permanency, after all, it is called “eternal salvation” (Heb 5:9). What part of salvation is temporary, seeing that one of the meanings of redemption is that of being saved from “eternal damnation” (Mar 3:29). Is it a sensible truism that one can be eternally saved and then not eternally saved? Thus being temporarily saved from “everlasting punishment” (Mat 25:46) is clearly a concept of an oxymoron?

In saying, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24 Jesus indicated that one's eternal destiny is finalized upon coming to faith in Christ.

 

[WordSword]

In saying, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24 Jesus indicated that one's eternal destiny is finalized upon coming to faith in Christ.

Hi! Amen, and thanks for your reply and encouraging comment! Now, it's all a matter of growth in the image of Christ (Eph 4:15; 2Co 3:18); and the growth is primarily nurtured in knowing the permanency of our faith and salvation, so that in all difficulties, we can still "rejoice in the Lord" (Phl 4:4).

 

[WordSword]

Is the fact that we are born into a condition that will make us eternally damned but that we can become eternally saved a sensible truism? Is that an oxymoron Then why can't we be reborn into an eternal salvation and then become dead again in sin and be eternally damned again? If we are able to not believe and then believe, we can believe and then not believe!

Because the word "eternal" means forever, e.g. without ever being interrupted or ceasing. If it's not unceasingly continuous once it has begun, it's not eternal. One cannot give someone something that is eternal if it isn't forever. My thought is if salvation wasn't permanent, then why would God give it to one He knows will one day cease to desire it.

I've believe one of the many certainties that support the permanency of faith and salvation is that nobody can be lost or saved more than once!

 

[TibiasDad]

• ...

What are you trying to say here?

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

2 Tim 2:13~~New American Standard Bible
If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself

He is faithful to himself and his declaration of truth! If we deny him, he will deny us- if we are faithless (denying him) he remains true to himself, to his word that those who do not deny him he will not deny and those who do deny him will also be denied!

But whoever denies me before people, I will deny him also before my Father in heaven. Matt 10:33 (Note the unqualified and thus unambiguous "whoever"...)

Doug

 

[GDL]

He is faithful to himself and his declaration of truth! If we deny him, he will deny us- if we are faithless (denying him) he remains true to himself, to his word that those who do not deny him he will not deny and those who do deny him will also be denied!

But whoever denies me before people, I will deny him also before my Father in heaven. Matt 10:33 (Note the unqualified and thus unambiguous "whoever"...)

What do you say to those who will say that the only thing to be denied the denier is the co-reigning in 2Tim2:12?

 

[TibiasDad]

Because the word "eternal" means forever, e.g. without ever being interrupted or ceasing. If it's not unceasingly continuous once it has begun, it's not eternal. One cannot give someone something that is eternal if it isn't forever. My thought is if salvation wasn't permanent, then why would God give it to one He knows will one day cease to desire it.

I've believe one of the many certainties that support the permanency of faith and salvation is that nobody can be lost or saved more than once!

If the giving is contingent then that which is given is necessarily contingent! Your argument doesn't take the entire equation into consideration. The terms of the giving are just as important as the quality of the gift, and I would suggest more so, for you cannot get that which is not given, and that which may be given (regardless of its qualitative value), is only given if X (i.e., being a believer) is a true reality.

Doug

 

[FreeGrace2]

He is faithful to himself and his declaration of truth! If we deny him, he will deny us

The obvious context for 2 Tim 2:12b is 2 Tim 2:12a. It's about "reigning with Christ" IF IF IF IF "we endure". That means enduring in the faith. It's an eternal reward for staying faithful.

So, v.12b is the corollary. IF IF IF IF we deny Him, He will deny us. Deny us what, specifically? Reigning with Him, obviously.

There is nothing here about denying the believer entrance into heaven. That is just very poor eisegesis.

- if we are faithless (denying him) he remains true to himself, to his word that those who do not deny him he will not deny and those who do deny him will also be denied!

Rewards WILL BE denied to unfaithful believers. Remember that believers have been sealed with the Holy Spirit WHEN THEY BELIEVED (Eph 1:13). This is tantamount to having God's DNA in us. He cannot deny His own DNA, any more than your own father can deny his own DNA in you.

Think about it.

But whoever denies me before people, I will deny him also before my Father in heaven. Matt 10:33 (Note the unqualified and thus unambiguous "whoever"...)

Still about reward.

 

[FreeGrace2]

If the giving is contingent then that which is given is necessarily contingent! Your argument doesn't take the entire equation into consideration.

No. Instead, you are ADDING to the "equation".

One plus one equals two. Quite trying to make this simple equation become some complicated algebra.

 

[TibiasDad]

What do you say to those who will say that the only thing to be denied the denier is the co-reigning in 2Tim2:12?

That argument is incoherent because it divides the internal consistency of the body of Christ. It argues that a person is a part of the body of Christ, and thus in heaven, but that this particular portion of the body of Christ is not reigning with the rest of the body. It compromises the internal integrity of unity in the body of Christ. Reigning with Christ is not an individual "reward" for personal faithfulness of working for the Kingdom's cause, it is a characteristic truth about all the sons of God, just like having eternal life is a characteristic of all who are found in the book of life. Being "a ruler" with Christ, who is also a ruler, is what we are, not what we possess differently than somebody else!

Doug

 

[WordSword]

If the giving is contingent then that which is given is necessarily contingent! Your argument doesn't take the entire equation into consideration. The terms of the giving are just as important as the quality of the gift, and I would suggest more so, for you cannot get that which is not given, and that which may be given (regardless of its qualitative value), is only given if X (i.e., being a believer) is a true reality.

Doug

It's okay, but not understanding you here.