Temporal Salvation?

[GDL]

Hi, and appreciate your input! To me, one of the strongest conclusions concerning faith is that those who eventually manifest a permanent disinterest in God confirm He has never been indwelt by His Spirit (regardless of the professions), because God never stops "working" within those who are His (Phl 2:13).

Hi back! A few thoughts:

The Spirit:

NKJ Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. A command to Christians, so apparently we can have an effect on the Spirit of God.

NKJ 1 Thessalonians 5:19 Do not quench/extinguish the Spirit. (the original word translated "quench" - to cause an action, state, or faculty to cease to function or exist, quench, put out - per BDAG Lexicon). This is a command to Christians not to do this, so what effect can we have on the Spirit's who works in us?

NKJ Hebrews 6:1-9 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us (command) go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits. 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. 9 But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner.

Commands result in choices to obey or disobey. The Scripture couples obedience to Faith & disobedience to unbelief.

We can effect the Spirit within us.

God permits or doesn't permit our advance to perfection/maturity & beyond (Phil3:7-16) & God may or may not accept a repentance (2Tim2:24-26: 24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.)

Phil2:12-13:

NKJ Phil2:12-13: 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out (command) your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

A few things for our consideration:

1. Note the past obedience Paul is noting and again he is commanding them

2. The command in the Greek is a word that emphasizes the accomplishment by the work (accomplish < work vs. work > accomplishment)

3. The fear & trembling is additional respect for God's authority language among other things & thus is more obedience language

4. Verse 13 begins with "for" and is therefore an explanation for 12. To analyze it we can & in this case should just see 13 as primary - the glory is His.

SO, to paraphrase:

God is the one working (activating/producing) in you Christians both the will/desire and the work/activity on behalf of [His] good pleasure (what pleases Him) > [since He's working in you, you're commanded to work with Him] to accomplish by work your salvation with fear & trembling.

In other words, work with Him to accomplish what pleases Him - the goal He has for you. Don't work against Him. Don't ignore Him. Don't deny/reject Him. Don't grieve His Spirit. Don't extinguish His Spirit. Don't fall away. At some point He may not grant your repentance - He may not allow your advance.

Apart from 2:12, there's no statement in 2:13 that God never stops working in us. It just says He is the one that works in you - so obey Him in fear & trembling and do what His Apostle commands. Again, there are choices here that we need to make.

With what I quoted before re: the Spirit, I think it's a dangerous game to play - not to take all this seriously. And I think that through a lot of study on the topic, our belief is vitally coupled to our obedience (among other descriptives) meaning Faith-Obedience vs. disobedience-unbelief. Point being: guard against disobedience as it is unbelief in His view.

I think His Word instructs that belief needs to be retained, His Spirit can be extinguished, and that Phil2:12-13 indicates He is working in those who are obediently working with Him as commanded.

There's always more to attach to this & discuss, but that's my take so far & some of the Scripture I reason this by.

 

[GDL]

WordSword: a correction:

With what I quoted before re: the Spirit (I meant "Belief"), I think it's a dangerous game to play - not to take all this seriously. And I think that through a lot of study on the topic, our belief is vitally coupled to our obedience (among other descriptives) meaning Faith-Obedience vs. disobedience-unbelief. Point being: guard against disobedience as it is unbelief in His view.

I think His Word instructs that belief needs to be retained, His Spirit can be extinguished, and that Phil2:12-13 indicates He is working in those who are obediently working with Him as commanded.

There's always more to attach to this & discuss, but that's my take so far & some of the Scripture I reason this by.

 

[WordSword]

Hi back! A few thoughts:

The Spirit:

NKJ Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. A command to Christians, so apparently we can have an effect on the Spirit of God.

Hi! I think "sealed unto the day of redemption" gives clear understanding if we know what is "sealed." Secured in the two aspects referring to "redemption." I believe there are only two possible issues these could be: the spirit of a believer, and the body of the believer. The prior of course is completely applied at rebirth; the latter, at the translation of the Church (Rom 8:11, 23).

 

[TibiasDad]

I said:
"To be specific, those who have believed have eternal life. Jesus gives eternal life to believers. When they believe. Once given eternal life, the recipients SHALL NEVER PERISH."

Your opinions are getting in the way of reality. You haven't shown ANY verse that supports your opinion here.

Here are the FACTS:

1. When a person believes in Christ, they possess eternal life.
2. Eternal life, by definition, means life that CANNOT PERISH.
3. Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall NEVER PERISH.
4. Reasonable and rational people understand that "cannot perish" and "never perish" mean the same thing.
5. So, once given eternal life, the recipient cannot and never will perish.


This is just more eisegesis. Not even close to exegesis. The English words "hold firmly" is 1 word in the Greek, and means to possess. It's not something that the believer must keep a firm grip on. Those who have believed the gospel POSSESS salvation and eternal life.

And the word "vain" means "without reason". So, believing "in vain" means to believe something apart from evidence.

What the verse doesn't mean in any sense is that salvation can be lost.


Those WITH objectivity already KNOW that at the moment of saving faith, the believer IS saved, possesses eternal life, IS indwelt with the Holy Spirit, IS sealed for the day of redemption as God's possession.

So don't give me any of this "actively BEING saved".


See above for refutation of your opinion.

Bill Mounce on εἰκῇ

Frequency in New Testament:
6
Morphology of Biblical Greek Tag:
adverb
Gloss:
in vain, for nothing, to no purpose
Definition:
without plan, or system; without cause, rashly, Col. 2:18; to no purpose, in vain, Rom. 13:4; 1 Cor. 15:2; Gal. 3:4 (2x); 4:11*

Here is an article that Mounce wrote specifically about the meaning of 1 Cor 15:2:
(Emphasis mine)
Are you being saved while you are persevering? (1 Cor 15:2)
Bill Mounce

The present tense can describe anything from a single point in time to an imperfective action to an action devoid of any time significance. It is the difference between "I study" and "I am studying." In our passage, there is a significant difference, in fact a life and death significance, between the two.

If you have studied theology very long, you know that the doctrine of salvation has three parts. It was an accomplished fact at the cross and in your conversion (Ephesians 2:5). It affects how you live out your life (Phil 2:12). And we look forward to its culmination in heaven (Romans 5:9–10).

Consider the present tense σῴζεσθε in 1 Cor 15:2. In speaking of the gospel, Paul says:

• it was preached to them (εὐηγγελισάμην; past)
• they received it (παρελάβετε; past)
• they are established in it (ἑστήκατε; present)
• they are being saved (σῴζεσθε; present)

But Paul adds a condition: “if you hold firmly to the message I preached to you” (τίνι λόγῳ εὐηγγελισάμην ὑμῖν εἰ κατέχετε). If they do not pass the condition, then they have “believed in vain” (ἐκτὸς εἰ μὴ εἰκῇ ἐπιστεύσατε).

There are many things we could talk about, but I want to stress the present tense of σῴζεσθε. Remember that the present tense, as it were, places you in the middle of the parade. You are inside the action, part of the process; and try as you might, you cannot see the beginning or the ending of the action.

This is what makes translating the present a little challenging at times. It can be anything from emphatically imperfective (“linear;” “continuous”) to almost a point in time (“instantaneous”) to devoid of any sense of time (“gnomic”). How do you decide? Context!

In our passage, Paul is thinking sequentially. The gospel was preached, then received, and the Corinthians were established in it. Or are they? Paul is facing a serious situation in which some of the Corinthian “Christians” are denying a cardinal doctrine of the faith, the resurrection. What then will be the end of this salvific process in their lives?

It all depends on whether or not they hold firmly to the gospel message. If they do, then the process of being saved will continue. If they do not hold firmly, if they do not persevere, then they have believed in vain, and in this context, the only possible meaning of εἰκῇ is that their “faith” is meaningless, “without cause, to no avail, to no purpose” (BDAG). They are not saved.


I know this is a hotly debated topic, but the main thing I wanted to point out is that context requires σῴζεσθε to be translated as emphatically imperfective. In first year we would define σῴζω as either “I save” or “I am saving.” As always, it is the meaning of the word in a specific context that determines the translation.

We know from many passages that salvation is a process (for lack of a better word). I was saved at my conversion. I am being saved (i.e., working out the implications of that past event) in my daily life, and I will be saved on the final day of judgment when I am glorified. This is standard theology, both Wesleyan and Reformed. It is not to say that I am aiding in my conversion; it is to say that the person’s life after conversion matters.

For ten years I was the “token Calvinist” in a Wesleyan university. Those were the actual words used in the hiring process, and I always appreciated their openness to other systems of thought. My personal opinion is that many Reformed seminaries could use a good dose of Wesleyan holiness. After all, Calvin was clear that there is more to Christianity than becoming a Christian.

In Verbrugge’s revised notes in the Expositor’s Bible Commentary, he says, “The NT, Paul’s writings included, holds in tension the doctrine of ‘eternal security’ with the possibility of turning one’s back on the Lord and losing one’s salvation. Whichever of these two poles was the more critical at any particular moment was the one Paul tended to emphasize. Since he is here dealing with a group of Corinthians who are close to denying a cardinal doctrine of the Christian faith, namely, the resurrection of Christ, the denial of which would make faith ‘futile’ (v. 17), Paul stresses here that salvation can be lost through adhering to false doctrine.”

I would have phrased the last sentence differently. As the person who has gone through a “conversion experience” lives out the implications of that event, their lives show the reality of that experience. To those who think they can live comfortably in sin, denying cardinal doctrines of the faith, Paul says that their faith is futile. To those who persist in the teachings of the gospel, he says that their salvation will be brought to completion.

As I used to argue at the university, what does it matter if they lost their salvation or never were saved in the first place? They still end up in the same place: hell. Instead of wasting time in theological debate, shouldn’t we be stressing that the faith that saves is faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone? If you have truly walked through the gate, then walking (σῴζεσθε) the path is not optional.

But I am most glad that I am not the judge who has to make this life and death decision for each of us. Neither are you.
************** (So I suppose that Mounce is using eisegesis to arrive at the same conclusion that I did.)

BDAG on εἰκῇ
BDAG lists 4 definitions with scriptural examples of each: 1) without cause- Col 2:18, 2) In vain, to no avail- Gal 3:4, 4:11, 3) to no purpose - Rom 13:4, 4) without due consideration, in a haphazard manner, thoughtlessly (perhaps, at random) and in disorder- 1 Cor 15:2 (Here the meaning 3 is also possible.)


So Thayer, Mounce, and BDAG-- a respected historical lexicon, a preeminent Greek scholar, and the most exhaustive and lauded lexical resource we have today-- all indicate that the meaning of εἰκῇ in 1Cor 15:2 is not "without cause" , but rather that a forsaken belief is a belief that is vain, has no purpose, and is ineffective to achieve the expected result of belief. The only place that "without cause" is the intended meaning is Col 2:18
Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you with speculation about what he has seen. Such a man is puffed up without basis by his unspiritual mind... "


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

A reward IS a "mere consequence".

Not all "mere consequences" are "rewards", as rewards are generally considered positive expressions, not negative, and Paul was completely negative in 1 Cor 11:17-22.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Hi, and appreciate your input! To me, one of the strongest conclusions concerning faith is that those who eventually manifest a permanent disinterest in God confirm they have never been indwelt by His Spirit (regardless of the professions), because God never stops "working" within those who are His (Phl 2:13).

There is, in my humble opinion, absolutely no way to assess this because I have seen many examples, both personally, in a broader historical frame of reference (i.e., Charles Templeton) and I think even biblically (i.e., Hymenaeus and Alexander, 1 Tim 1:19-20, and Demas, 2 Tim 4:9-10)of those who began in earnest to live the Christian life, even going into ministry (and being successful at it), and yet find themselves being deceived and led away from the faith and Lord they once pledged their lives to!

What your interpretation seems to forget, is the will of man must follow the lead of the Spirit, must choose to "remain in the vine", must "be on your guard so that [we] may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from [our] secure position. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen." 2 Peter 3:17-18

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Those WITH objectivity already KNOW that at the moment of saving faith, the believer IS saved, possesses eternal life, IS indwelt with the Holy Spirit, IS sealed for the day of redemption as God's possession.

So don't give me any of this "actively BEING saved".

I refer you back to Bill Mounce's conclusion that actively, continuously, in indefinite motion of the process of being saved is the only possible meaning of "sozo" in 1 Cor 15:2!

Doug

 

[GDL]

Bill Mounce on εἰκῇ

Nice find, Doug!

Everything I've been saying & more. Fascinating what one can learn when they learn the language & let the Text speak vs. getting into the ruts of a specific teaching so deep, that we can no longer even see out of the rut and would rather just fight to remain there.

Thanks for your work & patience.

 

[GDL]

Hi! I think "sealed unto the day of redemption" gives clear understanding if we know what is "sealed." Secured in the two aspects referring to "redemption." I believe there are only two possible issues these could be: the spirit of a believer, and the body of the believer. The prior of course is completely applied at rebirth; the latter, at the translation of the Church (Rom 8:11, 23).

Would rather stick with with where we were before advancing to redemption.

Some of these things are fascinating studies in themselves. There have been for centuries & still are studies taking place re: our use of many important Biblical words. For instance, are we investing the word aionōs (usually translated as eternal, or everlasting) with meanings in some contexts that it doesn't have? Are we using Greek thought vs. Hebrew thought? And so on.

As I recall, one of the major advances in our understanding of the usage and meanings of many Greek words came from an unearthing of an old garbage dump where an abundance of every day business documents were found.

We know the writers of the New Cov ("NC") documents used commonly understood examples from military, athletics, business, etc...

This concept of our being "sealed" is discussed only a few times in the NC. In Eph1:13 & likely 4:30 the Holy Spirit ("GHS") is the seal. And we're commanded to not grieve Him (sometimes GHS is referred to in the neuter, so "it" is more appropriate translation). The word translated as "grieve" has a range from making sad, to insulting, offending, irritating, distressing, and even grieving to the point of giving up. When I study, I take all these into account. I use several English translations only for expediency at times. Whatever it is, I just want to know the Truth. With that said, just what effect can we have on GHS - the seal?

Coupled with that, we're commanded not to not "quench" GHS. Again, this word has a range from quench, suppress, extinguish, stop, cause to cease to function.

I realize it may be more comforting for some to think they can just make GHS--the seal sad & maybe suppress Him/it once in awhile, but the Truth can be that this is much more serious.

The Heb6:4-6 verse indicates that some can be partners of GHS and fall away, for which there are very serious consequences.

GHS is also said to be the deposit, pledge, earnest money, placed in our hearts. The problem for me having been involved in many business contracts is the reality is that the deposit just makes the contract legal & says the one who made the deposit can (at least in God's place) be relied upon to do His part to successfully complete the contract. It says nothing about the other party being reliable. And the depositing party can agree to walk away from the deposit, or have it refunded under certain circumstances.

IMO, none of this is so cut & dry as some want it to be. This is one of the reasons so much is still studied and debated.

I have zero problem with knowing that God can and does do His part. Us, on the other hand, we still have free will and a lot of issues to deal with. Also, it still astounds me that most are taught so little about the NC commands (just for a rough number there are about 1,000 +/- of them). As Doug pointed out above in #104 using the Bill Mounce study, Salvation is a process. We have many commands directing us to remain in the process and not take lightly the Grace we've been & are given. Faith is never alone (and is much more detailed than some make it simplistically out to be). And so on...

I've noted your brevity vs. my non-brevity. Apologies for the lengths.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Bill Mounce on εἰκῇ

Frequency in New Testament:
6
Morphology of Biblical Greek Tag:
adverb
Gloss:
in vain, for nothing, to no purpose
Definition:
without plan, or system; without cause, rashly, Col. 2:18; to no purpose, in vain, Rom. 13:4; 1 Cor. 15:2; Gal. 3:4 (2x); 4:11*

Here is an article that Mounce wrote specifically about the meaning of 1 Cor 15:2:
(Emphasis mine)
Are you being saved while you are persevering? (1 Cor 15:2)
Bill Mounce

The question obviously refers to the "present tense" aspect of salvation, that being sanctification.

There is no reason to assume that Paul was asking if the believer was being saved in the eternal sense. That issue is clarified completely in John 5:24, 6:47 and 10:28.

The present tense can describe anything from a single point in time to an imperfective action to an action devoid of any time significance. It is the difference between "I study" and "I am studying." In our passage, there is a significant difference, in fact a life and death significance, between the two.

I finally realized how to explain the "present tense" to help you understand your error.

Let's say an unsaved person was sitting in church and paying attention to the message. And exactly at noon, he realizes that he is a sinner and that Christ died for him and gives him eternal life for believing in him. So, this is called saving faith, and this person expressed it exactly at noon.

So, at 12:05 pm, he can look back at noon as WHEN he got saved, and WHEN he believed in Christ.

However, WHEN it was noon, it WAS believing in the present tense. So any time following noon on that day, we think of his salvation as having occurred WHEN he believED on that day at noon. To claim that belief must always be in the present tense to be saved is unfounded from either the Greek or Scripture.

Salvation occurs immediately WHEN a person expresses saving faith. You've not shown otherwise, if that is your opinion. If you disagree, what verse proves that salvation is obtained any time AFTER saving faith.

If you have studied theology very long, you know that the doctrine of salvation has three parts.

Of course you know that I believe this. I have explained it to you on several occasions.

It was an accomplished fact at the cross and in your conversion (Ephesians 2:5). It affects how you live out your life (Phil 2:12). And we look forward to its culmination in heaven (Romans 5:9–10).

There you go.

Consider the present tense σῴζεσθε in 1 Cor 15:2. In speaking of the gospel, Paul says:

• it was preached to them (εὐηγγελισάμην; past)
• they received it (παρελάβετε; past)
• they are established in it (ἑστήκατε; present)
• they are being saved (σῴζεσθε; present)

But Paul adds a condition: “if you hold firmly to the message I preached to you” (τίνι λόγῳ εὐηγγελισάμην ὑμῖν εἰ κατέχετε). If they do not pass the condition, then they have “believed in vain” (ἐκτὸς εἰ μὴ εἰκῇ ἐπιστεύσατε).

The "condition" is to possess it. That's what the single Greek word means. What it doesn't mean is to have a tight grip on your own power. It's a passive possession, because it has been given to you.

There are many things we could talk about, but I want to stress the present tense of σῴζεσθε. Remember that the present tense, as it were, places you in the middle of the parade. You are inside the action, part of the process; and try as you might, you cannot see the beginning or the ending of the action.

This is what makes translating the present a little challenging at times. It can be anything from emphatically imperfective (“linear;” “continuous”) to almost a point in time (“instantaneous”) to devoid of any sense of time (“gnomic”). How do you decide? Context![/QUOTE]
I believe I'm done with the present tense. You should know better what it means.

All saving faith is done in the present tense. Obviously. Once expressed, it's still a done deal.

[QUOT]In our passage, Paul is thinking sequentially. The gospel was preached, then received, and the Corinthians were established in it. Or are they? Paul is facing a serious situation in which some of the Corinthian “Christians” are denying a cardinal doctrine of the faith, the resurrection. What then will be the end of this salvific process in their lives?

It all depends on whether or not they hold firmly to the gospel message. If they do, then the process of being saved will continue. If they do not hold firmly, if they do not persevere, then they have believed in vain, and in this context, the only possible meaning of εἰκῇ is that their “faith” is meaningless, “without cause, to no avail, to no purpose” (BDAG). They are not saved.[/QUOTE]
No, "in vain" actually means, in the Greek, without reason. So what kind of "faith" is a belief, trust, or faith without an object? It's NO kind of faith. That's what Paul was referring to. A faith without an object.

And faith without the specific object being Jesus Christ being the Son of God who died on the cross for all sins, and gives eternal life to believers, is a faith without reason. Or believing in vain.

Kinda like believing that Jesus was a human being only. That is believing in vain. It won't save anyone.

In Verbrugge’s revised notes in the Expositor’s Bible Commentary, he says, “The NT, Paul’s writings included, holds in tension the doctrine of ‘eternal security’ with the possibility of turning one’s back on the Lord and losing one’s salvation.

Any one who holds to such "tension" is greatly confused. The Bible is NOT confused, nor contradictory. If any part of it is, then we can't trust any of it. I reject that.
If the Bible teaches eternal security, and it does, then it CANNOT teach the possibility of losing one's salvation. The 2 are diametrically opposed.

Whichever of these two poles was the more critical at any particular moment was the one Paul tended to emphasize.

No, Paul was not losing his mind and teaching 2 opposite doctrines. That would be absurd.

Since he is here dealing with a group of Corinthians who are close to denying a cardinal doctrine of the Christian faith, namely, the resurrection of Christ, the denial of which would make faith ‘futile’ (v. 17), Paul stresses here that salvation can be lost through adhering to false doctrine.”

Wrong. Salvation cannot be lost. Fellowship can be lost, but not salvation. But Arminians seem to have no awareness or concept of fellowship.

As I used to argue at the university, what does it matter if they lost their salvation or never were saved in the first place?

Excellent point! And that is why I say that Arminians and Calvinists are much closer than either one thinks. Because, in the end, either condition results in the SAME PLACE.

They still end up in the same place: hell.

Yep.

Instead of wasting time in theological debate, shouldn’t we be stressing that the faith that saves is faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone?

Good question. No, because even that statement is internally contradicted.

I reject any contradiction. If saving faith is alone, then it is ALWAYS alone. If such faith is "never alone", it's NOT "faith alone" at all.

But I wonder if you can even see the contradiction. So many people seem unable to see that.

If you have truly walked through the gate, then walking (σῴζεσθε) the path is not optional.

Let's unpack this a bit. If one has "truly walked through the gate", it's already a done deal. The "path" is irrelevant at this point. It is walking through the gate that saves, as Jesus noted through metaphor in John 10:9.

So Thayer, Mounce, and BDAG-- a respected historical lexicon, a preeminent Greek scholar, and the most exhaustive and lauded lexical resource we have today-- all indicate that the meaning of εἰκῇ in 1Cor 15:2 is not "without cause" , but rather that a forsaken belief is a belief that is vain, has no purpose, and is ineffective to achieve the expected result of belief.

My lexicon has "without reason". And I've explained what that means; a belief without a proper object. And I gave an example.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Not all "mere consequences" are "rewards", as rewards are generally considered positive expressions, not negative, and Paul was completely negative in 1 Cor 11:17-22.

Doug

What's the opposite of receiving a reward? NOT receiving a reward. Or, loss of reward.

1 Cor 3-
12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.
14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

The red words clearly indicate a reward for faithful service.
The blue words clearly indicate the result of unfaithful service: "suffer loss".
The green words clearly indicate that such a believer will BE SAVED in spite of loss of reward.

Couldn't be any more clear.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I refer you back to Bill Mounce's conclusion that actively, continuously, in indefinite motion of the process of being saved is the only possible meaning of "sozo" in 1 Cor 15:2!

Doug

Bill Mounce is a Calvinist and has his own problems with comprehending Scripture.

I've already explained what the present tense means. ALL saving faith is in the present tense. Recall "noon" in my example?

And from THAT MOMENT the person IS saved, HAS (possesses eternal life), IS sealed, IS a child of God, IS a new creature.

Don't you realize that IF salvation or eternal life can be lost, all those things must also be lost.

You know well that there aren't ANY verses that plainly say that salvation or eternal life can be lost, and you SHOULD know that none of these other things I just listed can be lost either.

 

[TibiasDad]

Salvation occurs immediately WHEN a person expresses saving faith. You've not shown otherwise, if that is your opinion. If you disagree, what verse proves that salvation is obtained any time AFTER saving faith.

First, you err (once again), by asserting and assuming that I am contrary to "Salvation occurs immediately WHEN a person expresses saving faith"; I am not! I would only be sure to qualify the meaning of the terms "salvation" and "expresses saving faith". "Salvation is to be Born Again, reconciled with God, and forgiven of our sins and thus are recipients of the promises of God (Heb 11:3), including their ultimate salvation. We are thus saying in faith we are saved!

"Expresses saving faith" is to say that we believe/we are believing (present tense imperfect/active, moving in a forward direction at that particular point of reference, i.e., 12:00pm). But Salvation is only appropriated by the reality of such present tense belief. For as Hebrews says, "We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end." Heb 3:14 NIV

The NLT puts it this way: "For if we are faithful to the end, trusting God just as firmly as when we first believed, we will share in all that belongs to Christ." Heb 3:14

I do not think it could be stated any more plainly than this verse has stated it!

My lexicon has "without reason". And I've explained what that means; a belief without a proper object. And I gave an example.

All lexicons have "without reason", but none have 1 Cor 15:2 as an example of such a meaning! What Lexicon are you employing? Strong's, inexplicably, only lists two definitions, so I am assuming this is your source, but the other definition is "in vain" or without effect. Strong doesn't give examples as to what meaning is applied to which of the 6 verses in which the word is used, so we cannot adjudicate what meaning he means for 1 cor 15:2. One thing that I am certain of, however, is that "a belief without a proper object" is not a part of any definition that I remember reading. So please cite your source and make it clear from wince you are getting this information.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

What's the opposite of receiving a reward? NOT receiving a reward. Or, loss of reward.

1 Cor 3-
12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.
14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

The red words clearly indicate a reward for faithful service.
The blue words clearly indicate the result of unfaithful service: "suffer loss".
The green words clearly indicate that such a believer will BE SAVED in spite of loss of reward.

Couldn't be any more clear.

And I have stated nothing to the contrary!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Bill Mounce is a Calvinist and has his own problems with comprehending Scripture.

I would love to see you tell him that! Such hubris!

I've already explained what the present tense means. ALL saving faith is in the present tense. Recall "noon" in my example?

And from THAT MOMENT the person IS saved, HAS (possesses eternal life), IS sealed, IS a child of God, IS a new creature.

Don't you realize that IF salvation or eternal life can be lost, all those things must also be lost.

Yep, I realize this fully; that's why perseverance is necessary!

[/QUOTE] You know well that there aren't ANY verses that plainly say that salvation or eternal life can be lost, and you SHOULD know that none of these other things I just listed can be lost either. [/QUOTE]

Hebrews 3:14

New International Version
We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

New Living Translation
For if we are faithful to the end, trusting God just as firmly as when we first believed, we will share in all that belongs to Christ.

English Standard Version
For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.

Berean Study Bible
We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly to the end the assurance we had at first.

Berean Literal Bible
For we have become partakers of Christ, if indeed we should hold firm unto the end the assurance from the beginning.

New American Standard Bible
For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

New King James Version
For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

King James Bible
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Christian Standard Bible
For we have become participants in Christ if we hold firmly until the end the reality that we had at the start.

Contemporary English Version
We were sure about Christ when we first became his people. So let's hold tightly to our faith until the end.

Good News Translation
For we are all partners with Christ if we hold firmly to the end the confidence we had at the beginning.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For we have become companions of the Messiah if we hold firmly until the end the reality that we had at the start.

International Standard Version
because we are the Messiah's partners only if we hold on to our original confidence to the end.

NET Bible
For we have become partners with Christ, if in fact we hold our initial confidence firm until the end.

New Heart English Bible
For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm to the end:

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For we have been joined with The Messiah, if we shall hold fast to this true Covenant from the beginning to the end,

GOD'S WORD® Translation
After all, we will remain Christ's partners only if we continue to hold on to our original confidence until the end.

New American Standard 1977
For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end;

King James 2000 Bible
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end;

American King James Version
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end;

American Standard Version
for we are become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end:

Douay-Rheims Bible
For we are made partakers of Christ: yet so, if we hold the beginning of his substance firm unto the end.

Darby Bible Translation
For we are become companions of the Christ if indeed we hold the beginning of the assurance firm to the end;

English Revised Version
for we are become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end:

Webster's Bible Translation
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end;

Weymouth New Testament
For we have, all alike, become sharers with Christ, if we really hold our first confidence firm to the End;

World English Bible
For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm to the end:

Young's Literal Translation
for partakers we have become of the Christ, if the beginning of the confidence unto the end we may hold fast,

Doug

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Salvation occurs immediately WHEN a person expresses saving faith. You've not shown otherwise, if that is your opinion. If you disagree, what verse proves that salvation is obtained any time AFTER saving faith."

First, you err (once again), by asserting and assuming that I am contrary to "Salvation occurs immediately WHEN a person expresses saving faith"; I am not!

I recommend that you read AGAIN my statement. Rather than "asserting and assuming" anything, I SAID: "IF IF IF that is your opinion", and "IF IF IF IF you disagree". How is that asserting or assuming anything.

I would only be sure to qualify the meaning of the terms "salvation" and "expresses saving faith". "Salvation is to be Born Again, reconciled with God, and forgiven of our sins and thus are recipients of the promises of God (Heb 11:3), including their ultimate salvation. We are thus saying in faith we are saved!

OK, fine. You've finally clarified yourself.

"Expresses saving faith" is to say that we believe/we are believing (present tense imperfect/active, moving in a forward direction at that particular point of reference, i.e., 12:00pm). But Salvation is only appropriated by the reality of such present tense belief.

No argument. Of course saving faith is a present tense belief. And it is at that MOMENT that one IS saved.

For as Hebrews says, "We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end." Heb 3:14 NIV

It seems you think that "sharing in Christ" is salvation. It is not. That phrase refers to being in fellowship with Christ, where intimacy occurs, and spiritual growth.

I do not think it could be stated any more plainly than this verse has stated it!

I wonder if you even understand it.

All lexicons have "without reason", but none have 1 Cor 15:2 as an example of such a meaning! What Lexicon are you employing? Strong's, inexplicably, only lists two definitions, so I am assuming this is your source, but the other definition is "in vain" or without effect.

Didn't you read my explanation? If a person believes only certain facts about Jesus (He was fully human, and lived in Israel) but not in the FACT that He is Deity, Son of God, and that He died for the sins of humanity, and that He saves those who believe in Him for it, then their "belief" is "without effect". Or without reason.

If one doesn't believe in Jesus FOR salvation, what is the reason for "believing in Him" anyway?

Strong doesn't give examples as to what meaning is applied to which of the 6 verses in which the word is used, so we cannot adjudicate what meaning he means for 1 cor 15:2. One thing that I am certain of, however, is that "a belief without a proper object" is not a part of any definition that I remember reading. So please cite your source and make it clear from wince you are getting this information.
Doug

Yeah, I "wince" when I read your posts. I've explained that either "without reason" or "without effect" works for me. And why.

So let's move on. Please explain what your point about 1 Cir 15:2 is.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Bill Mounce is a Calvinist and has his own problems with comprehending Scripture."

I would love to see you tell him that! Such hubris!

It is easy to prove that Calvinism has problems with comprehending Scripture.

Here is what they believe, and think Scripture supports their views:

1. Man is unable to believe until God regenerates him. Regeneration follows faith.
2. Unconditional election is a choice of God for who to save. Election isn't about savlation but about service.
3. Christ's atonement is limited, and He died only for those who have been chosen to believe. The Bible says Christ died for everyone. Not "certain ones".
4. Grace is irresistible. Yet, the Bible says men REFUSE to believe. That's resistance.
5. The believer will persevere to the end. Jesus said otherwise in Luke 8:13

I said:
"And from THAT MOMENT the person IS saved, HAS (possesses eternal life), IS sealed, IS a child of God, IS a new creature.

Don't you realize that IF salvation or eternal life can be lost, all those things must also be lost."

Yep, I realize this fully; that's why perseverance is necessary!

So, IF all these things can be lost, why aren't there any verses that say so?

You know well that there aren't ANY verses that plainly say that salvation or eternal life can be lost, and you SHOULD know that none of these other things I just listed can be lost either.

Hebrews 3:14

New International Version
We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

New Living Translation
For if we are faithful to the end, trusting God just as firmly as when we first believed, we will share in all that belongs to Christ.

English Standard Version
For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.

Berean Study Bible
We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly to the end the assurance we had at first.

Berean Literal Bible
For we have become partakers of Christ, if indeed we should hold firm unto the end the assurance from the beginning.

New American Standard Bible
For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

New King James Version
For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

King James Bible
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Christian Standard Bible
For we have become participants in Christ if we hold firmly until the end the reality that we had at the start.

Contemporary English Version
We were sure about Christ when we first became his people. So let's hold tightly to our faith until the end.

Good News Translation
For we are all partners with Christ if we hold firmly to the end the confidence we had at the beginning.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For we have become companions of the Messiah if we hold firmly until the end the reality that we had at the start.

International Standard Version
because we are the Messiah's partners only if we hold on to our original confidence to the end.

NET Bible
For we have become partners with Christ, if in fact we hold our initial confidence firm until the end.

New Heart English Bible
For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm to the end:

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For we have been joined with The Messiah, if we shall hold fast to this true Covenant from the beginning to the end,

GOD'S WORD® Translation
After all, we will remain Christ's partners only if we continue to hold on to our original confidence until the end.

New American Standard 1977
For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end;

King James 2000 Bible
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end;

American King James Version
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end;

American Standard Version
for we are become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end:

Douay-Rheims Bible
For we are made partakers of Christ: yet so, if we hold the beginning of his substance firm unto the end.

Darby Bible Translation
For we are become companions of the Christ if indeed we hold the beginning of the assurance firm to the end;

English Revised Version
for we are become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end:

Webster's Bible Translation
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end;

Weymouth New Testament
For we have, all alike, become sharers with Christ, if we really hold our first confidence firm to the End;

World English Bible
For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm to the end:

Young's Literal Translation
for partakers we have become of the Christ, if the beginning of the confidence unto the end we may hold fast,

Doug

I see you are able to use biblehub.com.

However, this verse isn't about salvation, but about fruit production in the power of the Holy Spirit, which involves being in fellowship with the Lord.

What keeps the believer out of fellowship? Unconfessed sin. Failure to be filled with the Holy Spirit, which is a command, btw, and therefore, not automatic.

I have found that neither camp (Arminian or Calvinist) seems to be able to grasp the concept or issue of being in or out of fellwoship with the Lord, or being filled with the Spirit.

Given that, discussion always grinds to a halt when I bring them up.

 

[TibiasDad]

I see you are able to use biblehub.com.

However, this verse isn't about salvation, but about fruit production in the power of the Holy Spirit, which involves being in fellowship with the Lord.

What keeps the believer out of fellowship? Unconfessed sin. Failure to be filled with the Holy Spirit, which is a command, btw, and therefore, not automatic.

I have found that neither camp (Arminian or Calvinist) seems to be able to grasp the concept or issue of being in or out of fellwoship with the Lord, or being filled with the Spirit.

Given that, discussion always grinds to a halt when I bring them up.

Perhaps that is because you are wrong, which you are; relationship and fellowship are inexorably linked, so to have one is to have the other and to not have one is the ultimately to lose the other.

Doug

 

[FreeGrace2]

Perhaps that is because you are wrong, which you are;

Thank you for sharing your opinion again.

relationship and fellowship are inexorably linked, so to have one is to have the other and to not have one is the ultimately to lose the other.
Doug

And thanks for contradicting your own opinion.

If what you just posted were true, then there would no need of using both words.

And you have demonstrated the very common error among both Arminians and Calvinists.

I'll explain the difference, since you have shown you don't know there is a difference.

In a parent-child RELATIONSHIP, there can be either fellowship between them, or no fellowship between them. Fellowship is the harmony and intimacy between 2 people in a relationship. Same with a marriage. That is a RELATIONSHIP. And there can be either fellowship or lack of fellowship between the spouses.

When one party offends the other, fellowship is broken. Sin breaks fellowship. The solution for the child of God is to confess their sins, so as to restore fellowship. See 1 John 1 for the details.

So, yes, to have fellowship with someone, there must be a relationship first.

But relationships can have fellowship between the parties, or not. That's what Arminians and Calvinists seem not to understand.

Fellowship speaks to the condition of the relationship. ie; in or out of fellowship.

Whether the parent-child, or marriage RELATIONSHIP, which is permanent in God's economy, offense of one party by the other damages fellowship, and it must be restored.

The prodigal parable is a great example of the parent-child relationship in which fellowship was broken and then restored.

Believers out of fellowship cannot grow spiritually. And yet, there are so many believers who are so unaware of the issue at all.

 

[TibiasDad]

So, IF all these things can be lost, why aren't there any verses that say so?

You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. Heb 10:36

Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth. Rev 3:10 (ESV)

You will be hated by everyone because of My name, but the one who perseveres to the end will be saved. Matt 10:22

“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. Matt 24:9-13

Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him. James 1:12

These passages detail the following:

• perseverance is a commanded necessity,
• The one who perseveres to the end is the one who is saved.
• That there will be those who will reject and fall away from the Faith and they do not endure, and thus, they do not "receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him."

So only those who have become disciples and remain faithful to the end will receive thermostat of God, which includes but is not limited to salvation/eternal life. If they believed once, as your portend, and thus they possessed eternal life, but do not persevere to the end, do they, according to the above scriptures, "receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him"?

Doug