Tell 5 reasons why your way is good

[TillICollapse]

Sure you can Archaepteryx, but then how could you defend such a belief whole heartedly ? Also the belief I'm speaking about is certainty/ strong belief, which is the Biblical faith and my personal experience. Strong belief is certain/hot, not undecided/luke warm etc.

It has to be either/or from Jesus' perspective, because the stakes are so high.

What would be the goal of defending your belief ? Why defend it ?

 

[agua]

What would be the goal of defending your belief ? Why defend it ?

You defend your beliefs because unbelievers ( and people of other faiths ) question why you believe Christianity is truth etc, and then while witnessing you need to give reasson for the hope/faith you have when asked. Also other Christians who hold different doctrines question why I have the hope I do, and why the doctrines we believe reflects upon this hope, and eschatology. ( the end result upon all humans )

I've noticed TillICollapse that you apply apologetics in defence of unbelievers positions often, why is this ? Also I've had several conversations where you've defended your own beliefs, and argued against the Biblical Christian position, which is also apologetical, why is this ?

Do you believe the resurrection into eternal life is the most important subject we face, during our lifetime ?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Please describe shortly what is "your way", like "I'm atheist/Christian/theist" and state 5 reasons why it's a good way.

My way is to be spiritual without signing into any religion, I identify as mystic. It's good way because:


1) Spirituality is not limited to priviledged peoples. In history of mysticism, there have been illiterate peasants and educated, powerful peoples alike. It's one of those few fields where people are truely equal.

2) Dimensions of spirit and mind are endless opportunity for great adventures. I still get as excited about some spiritual things as I did 13 years ago (when my journey started).

3) By not limiting my spirituality into context of one religion, I can consider everyone - christians, pagans, you name it - to be my fellow seekers and people from any background can inspire me. I don't feel obliged to judge someone elses way just because it's different than mine.

4) Spirituality is one of few things in life which are not affected by persons age. You can be just as devout at age of 12 or at age of 95.

5) Being a theist, I see god as my company and friend. Relationship with god can be very satisfying and fulfilling element in life.

I only need two reasons why my way is good.

1. My way harms no one.

2 My way benefits everyone.

 

[TillICollapse]

You defend your beliefs because unbelievers ( and people of other faiths ) question why you believe Christianity is truth etc, and then while witnessing you need to give reasson for the hope/faith you have when asked. Also other Christians who hold different doctrines question why I have the hope I do, and why the doctrines we believe reflects upon this hope, and eschatology. ( the end result upon all humans )

Perhaps I'm thinking of "defend" in a way you may not be using it then. Idk.

When I think of "defend," I think of ... "defend AGAINST." What you're describing above has more to do with "explaining" or something. The "witnessing" thing goes a bit beyond that.

I suppose an extension of my own question, given the context of how I view "defend" would be ... if you didn't defend your belief, what would happen ? Or what would be lost, if anything ? And against what ? Those are the types of questions I'm thinking.

I've noticed TillICollapse that you apply apologetics in defence of unbelievers positions often, why is this ? Also I've had several conversations where you've defended your own beliefs, and argued against the Biblical Christian position, which is also apologetical, why is this ?

To be honest, the term "apologetics" is vague to me. It's almost like a mystery term I can't quite identify. Like sand through my hands lol. The other day, I had a thread closed because it "was apologetics based". I couldn't find anything in it which even seemed to go that route, based on the attributes I read that an "apologetics" thread might have. This may show my ignorance ... but I actually thought "apologetics" was essentially when a believer tried to use scriptures, and sometimes historical references to back some claim about their belief. I think I may be wrong. Unless this forums use of the term "apologetics" is also so ambiguous that it's not helping me out in grasping what it actually is lol.

So having said that ... if I'm applying apologetics, I don't realize I do it

Concerning whether I take an unbelievers stance or not ... in my own life, I obviously have quite a few experiences which help to give fuel to my own beliefs. But ultimately, I'm not out to defend my beliefs, or reinforce them as truth. I'm often, but not always, interested in THE truth. Not just my beliefs. But what is ACTUALLY true. Not what the unbeliever says, not what the believer says ... but what reflects in the reality that I endure and experience and what it may or may not mean. So I take into account multiple sides as I'm able. One thing I value in trying to determine what may or may not be true, is to strip everything of it's labels, and scrutinize it down to it's bare components. Skeptical and critical thinkers have a knack for doing this much more than the average believer in my experience. If I want to burn something down to it's ash, to see what remains ... finding someone who is able to do this, often assists in this effort. And imo, the average unbeliever who may be skeptically inclined is able to do this. If I'm willing to burn something down to it's brass tacks ... I may take a side that helps to do this. It keeps me intellectually honest, helps me see things I may have missed, etc. Most people are broken records from both sides (tbh) but not always.

Also ... as it comes to Christianity in general, I do not trust Christianity as an institution, and thus I have a lack of trust in most of it's adherents I come across. I'm not interested in many of the same things they seem to be interested in, I find it hard to relate ... and I want to know what some of those areas are which cause that. For example, my desire for truth on certain issues that I care about. Not "Biblical Christian truth", because that is vague and ambiguous. THE truth. So, as I said, I will burn things down to the ground to see what remains. In getting to know a Christian, what I value .. I find they don't often value the same thing. I'm a very free person, I value freedom ... I find the "Average unbeliever" values freedom. So I can also relate.

I could go on and on, but those are just a few of the reasons why I may do some of the things I do on this forum. Not exhaustive, but a few.

Do you believe the resurrection into eternal life is the most important subject we face, during our lifetime ?

Hmm ... that's a good question to ask any believer who may believe in such a concept.

I'd actually, at this point in my life, probably say no. At one point in time I would have said yes ... probably 15 years ago I would have said "Yes". Now ? I'd probably say the subject of how we love one another and handle the truth, even though that sounds a bit cheezy ... may be the most important subject we face. Idk though I'd have to think about it a bit more, see what I come up with (if anything different).

 

[agua]

Hmm ... that's a good question to ask any believer who may believe in such a concept.

I'd actually, at this point in my life, probably say no. At one point in time I would have said yes ... probably 15 years ago I would have said "Yes". Now ? I'd probably say the subject of how we love one another and handle the truth, even though that sounds a bit cheezy ... may be the most important subject we face. Idk though I'd have to think about it a bit more, see what I come up with (if anything different).

Ok this then identifies why we have such a different perspective on the importance of our faith. The resurrections is the culmination of all Jesus' teachings, and the pinnacle to boot.

So how do you identify spirtually , or don't you fall into any known category ? So far I think you seem to be diestic with no interest in the afterlife, and definitely not stoic ( the flesh is vile ). Maybe you are similar to the Sauducees ?

 

[TillICollapse]

Ok this then identifies why we have such a different perspective on the importance of our faith. The resurrections is the culmination of all Jesus' teachings, and the pinnacle to boot.

So how do you identify spirtually , or don't you fall into any known category ? So far I think you seem to be diestic with no interest in the afterlife, and definitely not stoic ( the flesh is vile ). Maybe you are similar to the Sauducees ?

I find value in letting others try to "identify" me. It tells me a lot about them, more than I already believe or know about myself. Every now and then someone will hit the nail on the head, and I'll say, "Yup, that's it " Otherwise I rarely even correct someone if they are way off.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Please describe shortly what is "your way", like "I'm atheist/Christian/theist" and state 5 reasons why it's a good way.

My way is to be spiritual without signing into any religion, I identify as mystic. It's good way because:


1) Spirituality is not limited to priviledged peoples. In history of mysticism, there have been illiterate peasants and educated, powerful peoples alike. It's one of those few fields where people are truely equal.

2) Dimensions of spirit and mind are endless opportunity for great adventures. I still get as excited about some spiritual things as I did 13 years ago (when my journey started).

3) By not limiting my spirituality into context of one religion, I can consider everyone - christians, pagans, you name it - to be my fellow seekers and people from any background can inspire me. I don't feel obliged to judge someone elses way just because it's different than mine.

4) Spirituality is one of few things in life which are not affected by persons age. You can be just as devout at age of 12 or at age of 95.

5) Being a theist, I see god as my company and friend. Relationship with god can be very satisfying and fulfilling element in life.

I'm a hyper realistic self indulgist...

I can't in good conscious recommend it to anyone. It works for me, but if you guys start doing it... the world would be awful.

 

[agua]

I find value in letting others try to "identify" me. It tells me a lot about them, more than I already believe or know about myself. Every now and then someone will hit the nail on the head, and I'll say, "Yup, that's it " Otherwise I rarely even correct someone if they are way off.

Ok cool. I have curioustity about everyone I interact with, because Yahweh expects me to love everyone, not just people I agree with. I find Yahweh's methods rewarding.

 

[TillICollapse]

Do you believe the resurrection into eternal life is the most important subject we face, during our lifetime ?

I glossed this over the first time, but want to come back to it.

In your opinion, what way is this the most important subject we face ? And I'm assuming you mean "we" as in "all people on earth". And a second question concerning this: I can't remember if you believe there is eternal damnation or not, or some type of eternal torment, etc ... or an opportunity for a human being to not resurrect to eternal life. If you do believe something along those lines, what is your practical solution concerning the subject and what do you believe you are doing in regards to it ?

Ok this then identifies why we have such a different perspective on the importance of our faith. The resurrections is the culmination of all Jesus' teachings, and the pinnacle to boot.

Lastly ... I missed where your opinion on the importance of my faith comes into this.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Sure you can Archaepteryx, but then how could you defend such a belief whole heartedly ?

I'm not sure what you mean by "whole heartedly". I would attempt to defend it with evidence.

Also the belief I'm speaking about is certainty/ strong belief, which is the Biblical faith and my personal experience. Strong belief is certain/hot, not undecided/luke warm etc.

Again, it doesn't have to be either-or. You don't have to be either certain or undecided. You could be confident, given the information available. You could assign a value and say that you're 75% confident, for example.

It has to be either/or from Jesus' perspective, because the stakes are so high.

Isn't that always the case with religion? It demands absolute certainty regardless of the evidence or there lack of. It almost never settles for anything less, anything more reasonable.

(I will warn you again that our communications will be short if you hop onto the merry go round, again. Let's try to avoid this eh )

Stop spinning the merry-go-round then.

 

[agua]

I'm not sure what you mean by "whole heartedly". I would attempt to defend it with evidence.

Whole heartedly means with all of the heart, soul , mind. Basically with all of the being, and of course is experential ( evidence + experience ). What evidence do you use to defend your beliefs ?

Again, it doesn't have to be either-or. You don't have to be either certain or undecided. You could be confident, given the information available. You could assign a value and say that you're 75% confident, for example.

Yes ok we can, and do, assign a P value to all of our beliefs. I give my belief in Yahweh P=1 ( no doubt at all ); What P value do you assign to your beliefs ?

Isn't that always the case with religion? It demands absolute certainty regardless of the evidence or there lack of. It almost never settles for anything less, anything more reasonable.

I'll only address Christianity here; if you wish to speak about all religions in general I can't help you. In the case of Christianity the reason we have certainty, and present the consequences of life with certainty, is because the stakes are so high ie. eternal life vs destruction.

The evidence for Yahweh is certain and whether it's accepted, or not, is up to each human.

Stop spinning the merry-go-round then.

Let's see how we go this time Mr Archaeopteryx.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Whole heartedly means with all of the heart, soul , mind. Basically with all of the being, and of course is experential ( evidence + experience ). What evidence do you use to defend your beliefs ?

It depends on the belief in question.

Yes ok we can, and do, assign a P value to all of our beliefs. I give my belief in Yahweh P=1 ( no doubt at all );

1 equates to absolute certainty. What warrants such an extreme level of certainty?

What P value do you assign to your beliefs ?

It depends on the belief in question.

I'll only address Christianity here; if you wish to speak about all religions in general I can't help you. In the case of Christianity the reason we have certainty, and present the consequences of life with certainty, is because the stakes are so high ie. eternal life vs destruction.

This line of thinking seems to follow directly from Pascal's wager.

The evidence for Yahweh is certain and whether it's accepted, or not, is up to each human.

What evidence exactly?

 

[agua]

I glossed this over the first time, but want to come back to it.

In your opinion, what way is this the most important subject we face ? And I'm assuming you mean "we" as in "all people on earth". And a second question concerning this: I can't remember if you believe there is eternal damnation or not, or some type of eternal torment, etc ... or an opportunity for a human being to not resurrect to eternal life. If you do believe something along those lines, what is your practical solution concerning the subject and what do you believe you are doing in regards to it ?

I don't understand some of your questions ( eg. opportunity to resurrect not to eternal life ? ) but I'll try.

All humans will be resurrected; some to eternal life and some to judgement and destruction. Eternal life is immortality living in paradise ( a renewed Earth ) in the Kingdom of Yahweh, where there will be no more death/suffering/injustice etc etc and so you may imagine why Christians aren't focused ( or shouldn't be ) upon material wealth or pleasures etc here and now. ( our treasures are in heaven and will culminate in the new Earth after the resurrection) This life is a drop in the ocean compared to eternity which is why the resurrection is the most important subject.

Only Yahwehs' family will inherit eternal life, all others will be destroyed, after judgement.

Can I ask TillICollapse, do you believe in justice ?

Lastly ... I missed where your opinion on the importance of my faith comes into this.

Your faith is the conduit for Yahweh's grace, which decides whether you will inherit eternal life, or not.

 

[bhsmte]

I'll only address Christianity here; if you wish to speak about all religions in general I can't help you. In the case of Christianity the reason we have certainty, and present the consequences of life with certainty, is because the stakes are so high ie. eternal life vs destruction.

I completely understand why most believers in a certain faith, will assign certainty to their beliefs and claim the evidence makes it certain.

Psychology of belief, especially when it comes to faith beliefs, explains this phenomenon quite well.

Faith beliefs are one's that become a crucial part of a person's psyche and when this happens, an internal process takes place, to protect the belief and with some, to protect it at all costs. Just the mere thought of someone else pointing out potential flaws in the belief, can cause quite a bit of internal turmoil and cognitive dissonance will occur. Evidence that cognitive dissonance is occurring will be; denial of well evidenced reality, confirmation bias towards means that will protect the belief and selective reasoning.

You see, the pain of acknowledging that one's faith belief can be questioned objectively, threatens the belief and causes the inner turmoil mentioned above. So, the defense mechanisms kick in and take over. With some people, the evidence showing their belief could be flawed, becomes so overwhelming, they get to a point when they can no longer ignore the same, because they realize they are only fooling themselves and they can not reconcile the belief any longer and they change course.

Since I have been on this site, I have asked many believers whether there is any possibility they could be wrong about their belief, even if it was only a 1% chance. What is interesting, is most will claim, there is zero percent chance they are wrong, while a select few will state; sure, I could be wrong, but I have faith in my belief, but understand why others disagree. It is these types of believers, who I feel have the healthiest view of their faith, but that is just my opinion.

Lastly, when you look at the atheists on this site, rarely, will an atheist ever state; it is certain a God does not exist and they will admit, they could be wrong and a God does exist, they just don't see the reasoning behind believing in one.

I find the above difference, very telling in how the typical faith believer and non believer, think.

 

[agua]

1 equates to absolute certainty. What warrants such an extreme level of certainty?

Firstly Creation itself makes Yahweh self evident, and then once the human searches for Yahweh more personal evidence is given. Also scripture explains and matches reality.

What P value do you assign to your belief that the Earth formed by natural means ?

What evidence exactly?

Creation.

 

[agua]

I completely understand why most believers in a certain faith, will assign certainty to their beliefs and claim the evidence makes it certain.

Psychology of belief, especially when it comes to faith beliefs, explains this phenomenon quite well.

Faith beliefs are one's that become a crucial part of a person's psyche and when this happens, an internal process takes place, to protect the belief and with some, to protect it at all costs. Just the mere thought of someone else pointing out potential flaws in the belief, can cause quite a bit of internal turmoil and cognitive dissonance will occur. Evidence that cognitive dissonance is occurring will be; denial of well evidenced reality, confirmation bias towards means that will protect the belief and selective reasoning.

You see, the pain of acknowledging that one's faith belief can be questioned objectively, threatens the belief and causes the inner turmoil mentioned above. So, the defense mechanisms kick in and take over. With some people, the evidence showing their belief could be flawed, becomes so overwhelming, they get to a point when they can no longer ignore the same, because they realize they are only fooling themselves and they can not reconcile the belief any longer and they change course.

Since I have been on this site, I have asked many believers whether there is any possibility they could be wrong about their belief, even if it was only a 1% chance. What is interesting, is most will claim, there is zero percent chance they are wrong, while a select few will state; sure, I could be wrong, but I have faith in my belief, but understand why others disagree. It is these types of believers, who I feel have the healthiest view of their faith, but that is just my opinion.

Lastly, when you look at the atheists on this site, rarely, will an atheist ever state; it is certain a God does not exist and they will admit, they could be wrong and a God does exist, they just don't see the reasoning behind believing in one.

I find the above difference, very telling in how the typical faith believer and non believer, think.

This is interesting Bhsmte, because on this site, and esp. in our interactions, it has been the athiet/unbeliever who has lashed out in defence of their non belief. I've also noticed that the athiest/unbeliever is very comfortable with Christians who have a less veracious faith, and this is explained by the lower amount of offence it gives. ie. If the Christian allows the athiest to think they may be justified in rejecting Yahweh, the athiest can merrily have good discussions and not be confronted with the truth.

I suggest any Christian who allows any unbeliever any opportunity to be comfortable in rejecting Yahweh, will find that they're hating this person, rather than loving them.

Many people prefer feeling comfortable though, this is human nature.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Firstly Creation itself makes Yahweh self evident, and then once the human searches for Yahweh more personal evidence is given. Also scripture explains and matches reality.

What P value do you assign to your belief that the Earth formed by natural means ?



Creation.

In what way does creation make Yahweh self-evident? In what way does scripture explain reality?

 

[bhsmte]

Many people prefer feeling comfortable though, this is human nature.

In this, we are in complete agreement.

 

[agua]

In what way does creation make Yahweh self-evident? In what way does scripture explain reality?

I think you may be trolling me Archaeopteryx.

I've answered your questions before, seveal times, and to be sure that you aren't simply trolling i'll need you to exhibit that you at least acknowledged my answers. So as a test to avoid the merry go round.

What were my answers that I gave previously to these exact questions?

In case you missed it, what P value do you assign to your belief that the Earth formed by natural means ?

 

[TillICollapse]

I suggest any Christian who allows any unbeliever any opportunity to be comfortable in rejecting Yahweh, will find that they're hating this person, rather than loving them.

Why ?

On a related note, do you believe that people have freedom but it is held against them ? IOW, if God grants people freedom (assuming you may believe God does) ... does God do so because God, in actuality, is hating them ? Or is the freedom just a wink-trick, where even God knows it's "not really free" and that there really is no choice ?