Tell 5 reasons why your way is good

[agua]

I have told you, I have personally investigated the work of NT historians on the historical credibility of the writings. My personal conclusion is, the NT is mostly a work of theology and not a work of historical accuracy and many NT historians hold this view.

Again, I will not turn this into apologetics on this issue, but anyone who wants to find well credentialed historians who hold this opinion, can easily find them and examine how they apply the historical method to reach them.

No opinion.

Your Honour I withdraw the question.

Thankyou Bhsmte for your input it has given me reason to consider all ancient characters and why we believe they existed, and how we investigate the story opf their lives. It's an interesting subject.

 

[bhsmte]

Your Honour I withdraw the question.

Thankyou Bhsmte for your input it has given me reason to consider all ancient characters and why we believe they existed, and how we investigate the story opf their lives. It's an interesting subject.

In regards to your comments in regards to how a judge would view things in a court of law, I would provide this tid bit, for anyone, who wants to objectively investigate the work of any historian:

-consider any possible personal motive they may have to reach a certain conclusion, the same way an attorney would cross examine a witness on their motives that may exist.
-learn the historical method on your own and form an understanding of how it is designed and how it is supposed to be applied, regardless of the topic being investigated
-lastly, when you read the conclusions of each historian, cross check how they applied what you learned about the historical method, to the conclusions they make. Do they ignore portions of the method to reach their conclusions, do they emphasize only portions of the method to support their conclusions?

When you allow yourself to peel back the layers, is when you really learn.

 

[agua]

In regards to your comments in regards to how a judge would view things in a court of law, I would provide this tid bit, for anyone, who wants to objectively investigate the work of any historian:

-consider any possible personal motive they may have to reach a certain conclusion, the same way an attorney would cross examine a witness on their motives that may exist.
-learn the historical method on your own and form an understanding of how it is designed and how it is supposed to be applied, regardless of the topic being investigated
-lastly, when you read the conclusions of each historian, cross check how they applied what you learned about the historical method, to the conclusions they make. Do they ignore portions of the method to reach their conclusions, do they emphasize only portions of the method to support their conclusions?

When you allow yourself to peel back the layers, is when you really learn.

Judges don't determine the accuracy of ancient historical works, usually; but I agree that the bias of the historians must be addressed, and examined.

 

[TillICollapse]

I can't imagine any life better than living forever in paradise with no suffering etc.

Okay ... so what about others who envision one even better than yours, but perhaps without the same qualifiers ? Do you believe it's necessary to try and resolve the differences so they accept what you believe things to be ?

I'm not going to quote scripture with you, because you've said that you don't believe the Bible is Yahweh's word, so why?

Oh ok here's a start.

Luk 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

Mat 7:22-23 KJV Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Regardless of my view on scriptures, why would you not quote scripture with me ? I don't get that. Especially if I'm basically asking for it.

Concerning those scriptures, where does it talk about Jesus saying to examine other's beliefs ? I can see where it may talk about their belief indirectly, but it doesn't appear to do so directly. And I don't see where it says to examine their beliefs.

From previous discussions I don't accept this. You don't get under my skin ( what a horrible thought ), but if you reveal something, and then say something contrary to previous discussions, this is either because you have a very poor memory, or that you're trolling imo. I suggest trolling, it's common on forums.

I have a fairly decent long term memory, and if I'm in critical situations, I can have excellent short term memory. I often can't remember what I ate the day before however, things like that. I'd have to sit and consider some point in time to relate the previous day to, in order to remember what I ate. I almost never forget a face, although I'm honestly horrible with names. Unless the person has a unique name, or I've had a signifficant relationship with them on some level, I will forget it almost as quickly as they say it to me.

Having said that, can you give examples where you think I've contradicted myself ?

I have no need to trust you because your words and actions speak about you, and if you're trolling, you wouldn't tell me the truth, anyways .

This is disappointing to me. And in all honesty, if you're being serious, it's something that bothers me and mystifies me. I've noticed it almost ONLY happens with believers, and "Christian based" believers ... from deist to fundamentalist ... be it online or in person. They eventually conclude I'm trolling, I'm not serious, I'm outright lying, half the things I say happened concerning myself never happened at ALL, I'm an atheist, etc. They consistently conclude and decide to inform me of all these things about me, which aren't even true. Online, when someone can't visually see me ... I've been told I have to be in my early 20's, I'm "new" to Christianity or have never read the Bible, etc. I'm constantly told what I believe or think about things, which are not true. Correcting them doesn't matter, because these people are now certain they've pegged me. And they couldn't be more wrong. Interestingly, I *rarely* come across the same response from "unbelievers" ... rarely. The majority is believers. It mystifies me a bit, because I suddenly find myself in a corner, but it's not a corner that really exists. It exists in their imagination. When I used to have to deal with psych patients in a medical setting, I quickly got used to going along with their delusions in order to help keep them safe and from harming themselves. I wouldn't verify them in the sense of "Yes, I'm a cop here to harm you," etc ... rather I would use the opportunity to slowly lead them and guide them to calm down, or become more compliant, less agitated, less dangerous. "Work" with them, IOW, instead of coming directly against their delusions. And with children, who may not always deduce reality correctly ... obviously correcting them and trying to make every single instance of incorrectness a teaching point can be exhausting. So you learn to pick and choose. But with adult believers, it still mystifies me how they can have so much certainty about something yet be so incorrect, even when it comes to simple things concerning what a person states about their ownself. I understand projecting, and cognitive dissonance ... but when I find myself being open and honest and actually INTERESTED ... it's odd to me when that itself becomes the turning point where suspicion suddenly arises and they are now convinced.

 

[agua]

...This is disappointing to me. And in all honesty, if you're being serious, it's something that bothers me and mystifies me. I've noticed it almost ONLY happens with believers, and "Christian based" believers ...

Ok TillICollapse we've had this discussion before, in private email recall ?

To be clear my purpose is to present Christianity as taught by Jesus, using the Bible as a guide. You've told me that you don't accept that the Bible is the Word of Yahweh, so we have cross purposes and won't see eye to eye on many Christian tenets, as has been evidenced.

I wish you well in your search.

 

[TillICollapse]

Ok TillICollapse we've had this discussion before, in private email recall ?

To be clear my purpose is to present Christianity as taught by Jesus, using the Bible as a guide. You've told me that you don't accept that the Bible is the Word of Yahweh, so we have cross purposes and won't see eye to eye on many Christian tenets, as has been evidenced.

I wish you well in your search.

I still don't get your reasoning and conclusions here.

To outline my view of scriptures, or anything related to "God" for that matter ... I have this view: I actually believe in what most people would probably call "revelation". That is to say in a very generic way, that if "God" wanted to show something to someone and speak for Himself, He could.

Having said that, if God said something ... the ultimate authority to clarify such a thing would be God Himself.

We treat people like this all the time (I mean, ideally I suppose). Jack can claim all day long what Jane said, but if I want clarification on whether or not Jane actually said it and what she meant by it, I would need clarification from Jane directly, and then Jane could explain not only whether or not she said it, but what she meant by it.

Concerning scriptures, or anything related to "God" I tend to take that same approach, especially if it's being attributed to God/Yahweh/El/Elohim/Paul/Jesus/etc. It doesn't mean I throw it out completely as though it has no value, to the contrary. But I'm not looking to my own understanding of a scripture, or someone else's claim on it SOLELY, or what others traditionally say it means, etc. Even if all of a specific religion were united in their interpretation of it, even then I would still probably dig deeper, waiting for clarification directly, depending on context.

This is all one reason why I don't particularly care whether the scriptures are full of mistakes, or flawless in design. Whether they describe a Canaanite deity and borrowed mythology, or they are precisely what some denomination claims them to be, passed down through the ages, falling into our hands in our current language, with the various canons in existence, etc. Because ultimately, it's hearsay to me. It doesn't mean some of it isn't accurate, but I'm not satisfied with historical accuracy for that matter, or traditional claims, etc. If it's supposedly something God said, be it Yahweh/Jesus/El/etc ... I won't claim to understand what God/Yahweh/Jesus/El meant until they explain it to me or clarify it. So when someone tries to corner me and ask me specifically whether I accept the "Bible as the word of God" ... unless I have that specific revelation, I gotta be honest and say no, or at least clarify and qualify if they wish to know more, because even then, "no" doesn't really cut it. It's not either or. I believe certain things about scriptures which doesn't discount them completely, for example. I realize that is a lithmus test for many believers, but not for me. And for whatever reason, many believers are not content with my own response and want to then paint me into a corner I'm not in. "You reject the Bible," or "You don't care about the Bible," or "You don't accept any of the Bible," etc. No no no. It doesn't have to be either/or with me in the same ways. So I'm not the one backing myself into that corner with my claims, it's often the other person projecting them onto me by taking my words out of context. When it comes to believers, in general, I'm more interested in what they've personally experienced with "God" or anything related, what they have done or are going to do, etc. Fruit, I suppose you could say. Not words/beliefs/doctrines, but "fruit". If someone doesn't have a lot to share in that area, I may dig deeper.

Concerning anything said in private, we've discussed so much convo in the past few days, I can't recall everything that is always said between me and others in private on this forum. However I will say that I probably wouldn't bring such things up with you even if I did, unless I asked your permission first, seeing as how they are done in *private*.

So I don't understand why you are suddenly wanting to end discussion ? If you want to, okay ... but I'm not following your reasoning. I want to know the truth about reality as well as understand Christians ... you want to present Christianity in a specific way with the Bible. Notice I'm even trying to be fair to you ... I'm not asking you to prove or provide evidence that you are doing what Jesus wants, or who or what Yahweh is or isn't, etc. I often just try to understand WHY you think what you do and claim what you do. You are trying to present a religion, I would like to understand some of the reasons why you are doing so. I don't expect us to see eye to eye. But to bring up my view on scriptures as a reason to suddenly back out ... I don't follow that.

 

[agua]

I still don't get your reasoning and conclusions here....

...So I don't understand why you are suddenly wanting to end discussion ? If you want to, okay ... but I'm not following your reasoning. I want to know the truth about reality as well as understand Christians ... you want to present Christianity in a specific way with the Bible.

We've discussed all of this before. If your reality implies that the Bibluical Christian model is incorrect, or not veracious, then we have different realities.

Jesus and Solomon said there's a time to continue discussions, and a time to leave them and I agree with them.

We can still discuss science, the weather, your food prefernces, or even moral dilemas etc, of course.

 

[Paradoxum]

Yes, at least in some sense. I mean, when someone doesn't have a physical body, seeing it might not be excactly same thing as seeing something that does have a physical form.

Well if something doesn't have a physical form, you would't be able to see it at all. Humans eyes can only see 'visible light', and we see others by the reflection of light from them.

It might be that the way it appeared, is not it's actual form. And they can appear and disappear, so they're not there in a same way that physical things are. I'm not sure if seeing a non-physical thing counts as proper seeing in way you mean it.

They haven't appeared to me in a way that they took physical body and I could touch them, if thats what you mean.

Well what did you see? Specifically? A shadow, light, or a a being as clearly existent as I would seem to you?

Do you see why I'd be skeptical? Humans have a bad habit of making up spiritual explanations for physical occurrences.

I see. Not believing is likely the right choice if there is no reason.

Don't you think it's worthy convincing me, if I'm wrong?

 

[agua]

Don't you think it's worthy convincing me, if I'm wrong?

What's your burden upon Yahweh, to convince you that He exists ?

 

[TillICollapse]

We've discussed all of this before. If your reality implies that the Bibluical Christian model is incorrect, or not veracious, then we have different realities.

Jesus and Solomon said there's a time to continue discussions, and a time to leave them and I agree with them.

We can still discuss science, the weather, your food prefernces, or even moral dilemas etc, of course.

The bolded part is the part that most interests me. Are these the very topics you would suddenly no longer like to discuss with me ? If so, I'll try to oblige.

 

[agua]

The bolded part is the part that most interests me. Are these the very topics you would suddenly no longer like to discuss with me ? If so, I'll try to oblige.

You don't need to oblige, I'm comfortable mediating my own times to engage; but if you like yes, I see no point in Biblical Christianity discussions between us.

The rain has stopped a little here, I may work some today yet !

 

[TillICollapse]

You don't need to oblige, I'm comfortable mediating my own times to engage; but if you like yes, I see no point in Biblical Christianity discussions between us.

The rain has stopped a little here, I may work some today yet !

Hmm.