Taking the offense out of the CROSS!

[Chrysalis Kat]

Why not just pass the koolaid

Seriously, God help me if [FONT=&quot] I ever get seduced into a cult and become so distorted in my reasoning abilities that I would actually worship a sadistic evil god. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

[Scrivner]

If Scrivner is right and God (who is supposed to be perfectly good) sends people to eternal torment just because they are not as perfect as he is, then would there be any difference if, instead of God, there was an infinitely powerful and infinitely evil being? What could such a being do which would be worse than torturing someone eternally?

I think that, if people who believe that God sends people to eternal hell, just because we aren't as perfect as holy as he is, are right, then it would mean that the supposed infinite goodness of God is indistinguishable from infinite evil...

The reason why it is divinely virtuous to requite sorrow upon the non-believing sinner is that such a person has violated God's laws. Thus, his punishment is against evil. Since they have sinned, it is an expression of divine virtue to bring them to grief.

Divine virtue consists in part in expressing judgment against evil by making the evil-doer suffer. "But if our unrighteousness commends the righteousness of God, what will we say? Is God unrighteous who inflicts wrath? May it never be! For then how will God judge the world?" Romans 3.

If God punished people for following his law, then that would not be punishing crimes. But God is virtuous because he does not punish obedience, but crimes.

 

[*Starlight*]

The reason why it is divinely virtuous to requite sorrow upon the non-believing sinner is that such a person has violated God's laws. Thus, his punishment is against evil. Since they have sinned, it is an expression of divine virtue to bring them to grief.

Divine virtue consists in part in expressing judgment against evil by making the evil-doer suffer. "But if our unrighteousness commends the righteousness of God, what will we say? Is God unrighteous who inflicts wrath? May it never be! For then how will God judge the world?" Romans 3.

If God punished people for following his law, then that would not be punishing crimes. But God is virtuous because he does not punish obedience, but crimes.

But no act can be evil enough to deserve infinite punishment...

 

[Soul Searcher]

Seriously, God help me if [FONT=&quot]I ever get seduced into a cult and become so distorted in my reasoning abilities that I would actually worship a sadistic evil god. [/FONT]

Ditto

 

[Soul Searcher]

It was Jesus who said that if the non-Christian did not assent to his divinity that the non-Christian would not see life because the wrath of God would abide on him. (John 3:36). "He that believeth not in the Son, shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him"

Jesus too taught that when then non-believing sinner infracts God's law, that God would requite upon him wrath -- wrath that has human destruction as its end rather than human life.

There is only one way to be pardoned of divine punishment -- and that is to believe in the atonement of Jesus Christ. God said it.

Funny how I don't recall Jesus ever saying a word about Christians or non-Christians. I do recall him saying something about pulling the log out of your eye though.

hmm wonder what he meant by that

 

[Scrivner]

I admit that God pardons me of sins-- granted. All I'm saying is that part of the Good News is that God is not going to pardon those who don't believe in Christ's divinity.

 

[Scrivner]

But no act can be evil enough to deserve infinite punishment...

A crime against God -- an infinite being -- is an infinite crime calling for infinite punishment.

 

[Im_A]

It was Jesus who said that if the non-Christian did not assent to his divinity that the non-Christian would not see life because the wrath of God would abide on him. (John 3:36). "He that believeth not in the Son, shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him"

Jesus too taught that when then non-believing sinner infracts God's law, that God would requite upon him wrath -- wrath that has human destruction as its end rather than human life.

There is only one way to be pardoned of divine punishment -- and that is to believe in the atonement of Jesus Christ. God said it.

wait here.

you've been going on and on about forever "eternal" punishment for those who don't believe. but clearly say, "that God would requite upon him wrath-wrath that has human destruction as its end rather than human life."

what other contradiction are going to use now?

have you not clarrified your views here? do you believe God punishes in the here and now?

what are we talking about here? you left out eternal punishment, eternal wrath, when you've vehementously mentioned those things.

 

[Im_A]

A crime against God -- an infinite being -- is an infinite crime calling for infinite punishment.

please don't build up our egos.

 

[Soul Searcher]

A crime against God -- an infinite being -- is an infinite crime calling for infinite punishment.

But if so then a single act of mercy to any of Gods creatures would be an infinite act of love. Jesus said that what you have did to the least of these you have done also to me [and no he was not just talking about Christains]. Peter tells us that love covereth a multitude of sins. James tells us that Mercy triumphs judgment. Jesus tells us that the merciful shall obtain mercy.

You contradict all these things and hundres of other verses with almost everyone of your posts. Perhaps you should read the bible again.

 

[Im_A]

But if so then a single act of mercy to any of Gods creatures would be an infinite act of love. Jesus said that what you have did to the least of these you have done also to me [and no he was not just talking about Christains]. Peter tells us that love covereth a multitude of sins. James tells us that Mercy triumphs judgment. Jesus tells us that the merciful shall obtain mercy.

You contradict all these things and hundres of other verses with almost everyone of your posts. Perhaps you should read the bible again.

the problem i see personally with "sin" being infinite is because it is "something" that can be taken away, forgiven or whatever. it's something that doesn't have an eternal foundation cause it was created...whether by God as described in Isaiah 45:5-7, or created by free-will of human beings or using free-will to believe in Lucifier's pre-meditated advice (cause in all actuality, i wonder if the devil was right, but i think we can see more why God commanded Adam and Eve to not do it...looking at it from a literal pov.) so here we have finite beings, createing something for the first time in the story. they knew nothing and if people consider them perfect, then ignorance is truly bliss cause Adam and Eve were probably the last truly ignorant people alive.

point is, sin was created. it has a beginning. anything infinite, by sheer definition doesn't have a beginning.

and a finite creature, solely based in a temporary vessel, going to die someday, having nothing of infiniteness has no possible way of doing an infinite action. it's not in our makeup/or our design. God can destroy the soul, it's in his "jurisdiction" cause he's omnipotent, doesn't mean He will do it, just means He can. so our whole entire makeup is that of a finite design. we have a beginning and we have an end. and it seems that anybody who thinks they can commit an infinite crime against the Almighty, resembles Lucifier in my opinion...someone with their buckle strapped too tight around the waist that they think they can do anything against the Almighty.

 

[Soul Searcher]

the problem i see personally with "sin" being infinite is because it is "something" that can be taken away, forgiven or whatever. it's something that doesn't have an eternal foundation cause it was created...whether by God as described in Isaiah 45:5-7, or created by free-will of human beings or using free-will to believe in Lucifier's pre-meditated advice (cause in all actuality, i wonder if the devil was right, but i think we can see more why God commanded Adam and Eve to not do it...looking at it from a literal pov.) so here we have finite beings, createing something for the first time in the story. they knew nothing and if people consider them perfect, then ignorance is truly bliss cause Adam and Eve were probably the last truly ignorant people alive.

point is, sin was created. it has a beginning. anything infinite, by sheer definition doesn't have a beginning.

and a finite creature, solely based in a temporary vessel, going to die someday, having nothing of infiniteness has no possible way of doing an infinite action. it's not in our makeup/or our design. God can destroy the soul, it's in his "jurisdiction" cause he's omnipotent, doesn't mean He will do it, just means He can. so our whole entire makeup is that of a finite design. we have a beginning and we have an end. and it seems that anybody who thinks they can commit an infinite crime against the Almighty, resembles Lucifier in my opinion...someone with their buckle strapped too tight around the waist that they think they can do anything against the Almighty.

I agree.

I was just using the logic provided by the claim of infinite sin and following it through hoping that perhaps I could show the illogical nature of the statement. I doubt that I got through but I tried

 

[Im_A]

I agree.

I was just using the logic provided by the claim of infinite sin and following it through hoping that perhaps I could show the illogical nature of the statement. I doubt that I got through but I tried

and which i agreed with yours too

 

[Martinez]

brightmorningstar, I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel, which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.

Love is patient, love is kind, it does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud, it is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always persevers. ............................................. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror, then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part, then I shall know fully even as I am fully known.

It is you my friend who is confused by God's awesome love.

Amen!

 

[Cleany]

i want to know where scrivner (cough) gets his phrases from.

"renders infinite punishment". rofl. so casual.

i can picture god smoking a pipe, taking each drag of the cool, mellow smoke, talking of "rendering infinite punishmen" as if iterating a coctail recipe. of course what god is really smoking is sinners, thats how casual it all is.

 

[Scrivner]

i want to know where scrivner (cough) gets his phrases from.

"renders infinite punishment". rofl. so casual.

To my mind, Biblical Christians often use euphemisms when referring to divine judgment, speaking of it in a different way than it really exists.

Biblical Christians sometimes just speak of the judgment as "separation from God for people who choose it by choosing to not worship Jesus as God." I think this hides the nature of divine judgment by glossing over the fact that God is going to PUNISH non-believers and the separation from God is imposed as a PENALTY for the violation of God's law.

Thus, the phrases I use hi-light what is usually hidden -- the fact that God is active in punishing non-Believing sinners and the punishment does not have correction as its intended end.

Thus, I come up with my phrases: God is going to render infinite punishments upon those who do not worship him.

There is an infinite divine penalty for the violation of GOd's law that God will render upon the non-believing sinner or Christ as his substitute. This is the Good News.

 

[Soul Searcher]

There is an infinite divine penalty for the violation of GOd's law that God will render upon the non-believing sinner or Christ as his substitute. This is the Good News.

John: Hey Joe, I got some good news for ya.
Joe: Oh yeah, what would that be?
John: You are going to burn in hell for all eternity. Isn't it wonderful?
Joe: Are you nuts?
John: Hey don't get mad at me I'm just telling you what God said.
Joe: <picks up the phone> Hello mental hospital, I'd like to arange a pick up.

 

[Scrivner]

Suppose a Taoist, who believes that divine judgment is always corrective (TTC Stanza 22), yields himself to the operation of divine judgment, expecting that this is the means by which the Tao intends to unite the Taoist to himself in the eternal world -- by correctively judging him.

The Bible says that such a person will not indeed unite with God, no matter what he had hoped or chosen, because he has not accepted the atoning work of CHrist on the Cross. Instead, God is going to punish that Taoist with a penalty of eternal separation because of that Taoist's violation of God's law.

Suffering is not SIMPLY chosen. It is also rendered as a penalty for the violation of God's law upon non-believing sinners.

 

[stumpjumper]

There is an infinite divine penalty for the violation of GOd's law that God will render upon the non-believing sinner or Christ as his substitute. This is the Good News.

You can call yourself a "Biblical Christian" but just stating it doesn't make it so... Sure, some Christians believe that God will punish non-Christians for all eternity but calling that "good news" is a bit of a stretch...

The good news is that God loved and loves us when we were yet sinners. The good news is a message of salvation not torment and punishment...

 

[Im_A]

this is to all the atheists and agnostics who have blessed us with your posts here on this thread. i have several questions for you.

do you feel that this message of penal substionary atonement that you see us debating vehementously over is what was offered to you?

and do you feel that WE, as Christians, aren't actually offering a message of rebirth?

i ask this for serveral reasons.

one, i don't see how in PSA, that it is shown that Jesus dies for you. He dies for God. the will of the Father is that of uncontrollable anger...which anger seems to be a ficitious emotion, and God's transcendence, i would imagine God is not controlled by such emotions. even if the atonement was on the behalf of humanity, it would have to be a pure dieing for humanity, not the hidden clause of appeasing the wrath of God, cause it was the same God, that Jesus lived His life by/for.

and does this message offer any hope to you. does this message offer new life? instead, it seems to be offering a life of struggle...actually never rising above the "Old Man" and completely destroying it or completely being born again. this appeasment of the wrath of God, only purified God in eccense, while we can experience momentairly purification.

so with this, is this what your seeing from us Christians?