Taking the offense out of the CROSS!

[Martinez]

This can't be for real!

I get the distinct impression that we're being lead down the garden path.

this must be a parody!

 

[Scrivner]

It is not a parody. It is not a reductio ad absurdum, it is just hi-lighting the offense of the cross and the nature of the gospel which is like a sword, dividing men. An honest presentation of the Biblical gospel will necessarily divide the chosen from the reprobate, the obedient from the rebelious, the ones who want to place their fallen minds at the steering wheel or those who want to place the revealed expression of God's mind (the Bible) in control.

 

[Martinez]

It is not a parody. It is not a reductio ad absurdum, it is just hi-lighting the offense of the cross and the nature of the gospel which is like a sword, dividing men. An honest presentation of the Biblical gospel will necessarily divide the chosen from the reprobate, the obedient from the rebelious, the ones who want to place their fallen minds at the steering wheel or those who want to place the revealed expression of God's mind (the Bible) in control.

You do know the word gospel means good news right?

 

[Athene]

 

[Asimov]

It is not a parody. It is not a reductio ad absurdum, it is just hi-lighting the offense of the cross and the nature of the gospel which is like a sword, dividing men. An honest presentation of the Biblical gospel will necessarily divide the chosen from the reprobate, the obedient from the rebelious, the ones who want to place their fallen minds at the steering wheel or those who want to place the revealed expression of God's mind (the Bible) in control.

And the independent thinkers from the sheep?

 

[Soul Searcher]

The reason why God chooses a law enforcement policy of penal punishment of the law-breaker (rather than a policy of remedial punishment of the law-breaker) is that the suffering of the non-Christian which is generate by penal punishment is glorifying to God

This suffering is more glorifying than would be the joy of the non-Christian (which would be generated by a pedagogical punishement) -- if it had been otherwise, God could easily have re-adjusted his law-enforcement mechanism.

God glorifies himself by rendering rewards upon those who worship him and by rendering penalties upon those who would prefer not to. Neither group will ultimately be correctively transfigured (because there is no purgatory) but both groups will remain as they are as they are and alternately rewarded or penalized.

This is the good news that God tells humanity in the Bible. It is only the hardness of your heart if you don't perceive it as good or if you don't find it plausible.

Newsflash There is no glory in eternaly torturing people no matter what you may think. There is no honor, no justice, no love, no mercy. It is only the hardness of your heart that even lets you consider such a thing as remotely close to the truth.

It would seem that you are one of those who see but do not see, hear but do not hear, nor do you understand. You strain out a gnat while swallowing the camel.

 

[bobhope]

Guys, Delft is obviously not going to listen to reason. Heck, he won't even answer your questions. He'll just quote-mine the bible and claim that it's answering you (when it's pretty easy to find a contradictory verse, no less).

Delft, unless you can participate in a discussion I see no reason you should be here.

 

[Im_A]

funny thing is, i'm including myself here as well, we are ALL debating over myths. no wonder we aren't getting anywhere.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Hello Scrivner,
In Galatians 1 Paul call this being bewitched. Its witchcraft to not accept the gospel. The cross is love, its agape love,
In fact because the modern western world and the spirit of this age has condfused meaning of 'love' the KJV of the Bible is useful here when ist calls love charity. Faith hop and Charity and the greatest of these is charity. No sign of 'love' to confuse liberals

 

[TScott]

It is not a parody. It is not a reductio ad absurdum, it is just hi-lighting the offense of the cross and the nature of the gospel which is like a sword, dividing men. An honest presentation of the Biblical gospel will necessarily divide the chosen from the reprobate, the obedient from the rebelious, the ones who want to place their fallen minds at the steering wheel or those who want to place the revealed expression of God's mind (the Bible) in control.

Maybe you need to go back under the bridge.

 

[non-religious]

If hell is such a reality then why didn't God throughout the history of the OT speak about it? Why are there only, at best a few verses that speak about hell? Surely Jesus would have really stressed the point..

 

[Athene]

brightmorningstar, I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel, which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.

Love is patient, love is kind, it does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud, it is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always persevers. ............................................. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror, then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part, then I shall know fully even as I am fully known.

It is you my friend who is confused by God's awesome love.

 

[Scrivner]

God said that he would punish non-believing sinners who broke his law -- punish them in a manner that has their destruction as its end rather than their transfiguration. Like all things, he does this for his glory

It is for his glory that he determined to enforce his law in this manner rather than by pedagogically judging. There was something more glorious to him about the ENDS of penalties -- human destruction -- rather than the ENDS of chastening -- human transfiguration. Otherwise, he would do things differently.

When God grants you salvation, he also grants you the ability to contemplate these thoughts honestly and analyticaly without going crazy or recoiling in horror. He grants you the ability to see the divine virtue in punishing the non-believing sinners, and seeing how this is a good part of the broader Good News presented in the Bible. This is the process of regeneration.

 

[Mrs.Sidhe]

One thing that I notice liberal Christians doing is to take the offense out of the cross -- avoid describing the true meaning of Christ's work on the cross, the awesome punishment-bearing substitution that God made for us.

The Bible teaches that the wages of sin is death and that Christ died in order to allow Christians to escape the coming wrath. God rendered an infinite penalty upon Christ on the cross -- a penalty that God would otherwise render upon us sinners. By having faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ, Christians are pardoned of the wages of sin.

Christ didn't die SIMPLY in order to be an example, or to defeat death (although his work included both these things). But, rather, Christ also died to propitiate the infinite and eternal wrath of God that burns against all iniquity and evil.

Any explanation of the meaning of Christ's suffering that ignores the fact that he bore a divine punishment in order to set aside the punishment of God guts the Good News of the Bible: There is a divine punishment for the violation of God's law that God would render upon the non-believing sinner or Christ as his substitute.

An understanding of the atonement that neglects the fact that God wants blood sacrifices in order to be appeased, is an understanding that completely lacks the power to save a person from God's eternal punishments which do in fact exist. A cross without penal substitution is a cross that does not save the one who holds it. God said it.

You know maybe if you spent more time worrying about your relationship with God and actually reading the BIBLE including the RED PARTS where Jesus speaks and oh I dunno..trying to follow what he taught I think you'd be a lot better off.

People like you are why I rejected Christianity for a long time.

 

[Soul Searcher]

God said that he would punish non-believing sinners who broke his law -- punish them in a manner that has their destruction as its end rather than their transfiguration. Like all things, he does this for his glory

 

[*Starlight*]

If Scrivner is right and God (who is supposed to be perfectly good) sends people to eternal torment just because they are not as perfect as he is, then would there be any difference if, instead of God, there was an infinitely powerful and infinitely evil being? What could such a being do which would be worse than torturing someone eternally?

I think that, if people who believe that God sends people to eternal hell, just because we aren't as perfect as holy as he is, are right, then it would mean that the supposed infinite goodness of God is indistinguishable from infinite evil...

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

When God grants you salvation, he also grants you the ability to contemplate these thoughts honestly and analyticaly without going crazy or recoiling in horror.

God said that he would punish non-believing sinners who broke his law -- punish them in a manner that has their destruction as its end rather than their transfiguration. Like all things, he does this for his glory

Oh man, I don't know if we should laugh or cry.

 

[Soul Searcher]

If Scrivner is right and God (who is supposed to be perfectly good) sends people to eternal torment just because they are not as perfect as he is, then would there be any difference if, instead of God, there was an infinitely powerful and infinitely evil being? What could such a being do which would be worse than torturing someone eternally?

I think that, if people who believe that God sends people to eternal hell, just because we aren't as perfect as holy as he is, are right, then it would mean that the supposed infinite goodness of God is indistinguishable from infinite evil...

The good news is that those people do not know what they are talking about

 

[Soul Searcher]

Oh man, I don't know if we should we laugh or cry.

Why not just pass the koolaid

 

[Scrivner]

You know maybe if you spent more time actually reading the BIBLE including the RED PARTS where Jesus speaks

It was Jesus who said that if the non-Christian did not assent to his divinity that the non-Christian would not see life because the wrath of God would abide on him. (John 3:36). "He that believeth not in the Son, shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him"

Jesus too taught that when then non-believing sinner infracts God's law, that God would requite upon him wrath -- wrath that has human destruction as its end rather than human life.

There is only one way to be pardoned of divine punishment -- and that is to believe in the atonement of Jesus Christ. God said it.