Taking the offense out of the CROSS!

[stumpjumper]

Hell is not SIMPLY chosen. It is also rendered as a penalty for the violation of God's law upon non-believing sinners.

Let's assume there is an eternal existence that can be called "hell". You're not going to get that from all Christians but it makes the discussion easier...

This passage then states that Jesus will draw all men, even the Taoist, up to himself:

[bible]John 12:32[/bible]

Some *may* reject him and choose eternity without accepting God's grace. Maybe. But, even then, you don't have eternal punishment you simply have a hell that has doors that are locked from the inside.

Of course, I think that the love of God is strong enough to keep all hardened hearts from resisting being drawn up...

 

[Scrivner]

The good news is that God loved and loves us when we were yet sinners. The good news is a message of salvation not torment and punishment...

We cannot understand the good news of God's salvation (his pardon) before we understand the truth about his punishment -- punishment that God will render upon the non-believing sinner or Christ as his atonement.

 

[stumpjumper]

We cannot understand the good news of God's salvation (his pardon) before we understand the truth about his punishment -- punishment that God will render upon the non-believing sinner or Christ as his atonement.

The penalty of sin is death not "eternal punishment"!

We are saved from death and sin by the love of God and that is the good news.

You most certainly can understand salvation without believing in eternal punishment.

 

[Scrivner]

As long as we both agree that there is a divine penalty of the violation of God's law, we're cool and we're in agreement.

It is not my concern whether you call that penalty "torture," "hell," "eternal destruction," "death" or any other word.

Just so long as you agree that the operation of divine wrath upon the non-believing sinner is not corrective, pedagogical, or transfiguring.

 

[Im_A]

As long as we both agree that there is a divine penalty of the violation of God's law, we're cool and we're in agreement.

It is not my concern whether you call that penalty "torture," "hell," "eternal destruction," "death" or any other word.

Just so long as you agree that the operation of divine wrath upon the non-believing sinner is not corrective, pedagogical, or transfiguring.

YOU HAVE TO BE JOKING.

the very crux of your previous post was the word "eternal"/"everlasting." and now, semantics don't matter?

i'm not saying that i want to be in a heavy debate, but come on...stay consistant!

i'm done with this discussion. if any atheists/agnostics who want to answer my question that i posted earlier, please pm me...i still would appreciate it.

God Bless you Scrivner, and God Bless you all! <><

 

[stumpjumper]

Just so long as you agree that the operation of divine wrath upon the non-believing sinner is not corrective, pedagogical, or transfiguring.

Well I don't agree but I have to go.

I don't buy the divine penalty bit either but if there is a hell it is probably not corrective. It is most likely empty...

 

[Scrivner]

Well I don't agree but I have to go.

I don't buy the divine penalty bit either but if there is a hell it is probably not corrective. It is most likely empty...

So, in other words, you believe that when God does punish, he does so ALWAYS with the end of amending and correcting the object of his punishment? This is not Biblical.

 

[Soul Searcher]

I'm done too.. can't take this nonsense any longer.

 

[Scrivner]

I'm done too.. can't take this nonsense any longer.

If you drift away from the Cross of Christ, God will render punishment upon you for the violation of his law -- punishment that does not have as its end your correction. This is what the Bible says. This is what God says.

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

T.

Thus, the phrases I use hi-light what is usually hidden -- the fact that God is active in punishing non-Believing sinners and the punishment does not have correction as its intended end.

.

And that my dear is the definition of torture and abuse right there.

 

[Scrivner]

And that my dear is the definition of torture and abuse right there.

It's not cruelty. It's virtuous behavior for God. It is the operation of divine justice. If a person were to do it to another person -- requiting sorrow for wrong, this would be cruelty. But when God does it, God the law-giver and law enforcer, it is divine virtue.

 

[stumpjumper]

So, in other words, you believe that when God does punish, he does so ALWAYS with the end of amending and correcting the object of his punishment? This is not Biblical.

No. I don't believe God "punishes" anyone. Period. There might be an existence that could be termed hell and it might be eternal. I don't know. If there is it is not up to Christians to determine who goes to hell and who does not as we are not to judge others.

What the Bible does say though is that it is up to man to come into the light and that is through God's grace. The condemnation is not a punishment but what happens when one does not step into the light:

The Gospel According to St. John, Chapter 3, Verses 19-21​

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.​

It is how man reacts to the light and whether or not we have faith, hope, and love in our hearts that is what determines our eternal destiny. Not whether or not we are going to be on the recieving end of a whooping from God...

It's not cruelty. It's virtuous behavior for God. It is the operation of divine justice. If a person were to do it to another person -- requiting sorrow for wrong, this would be cruelty. But when God does it, God the law-giver and law enforcer, it is divine virtue.

The way you are describing God it most certainly is cruelty.

Why are you stating that people are more virtuous than God? Does not that strike you as the least bit odd?

 

[Athene]

It's not cruelty. It's virtuous behavior for God. It is the operation of divine justice. If a person were to do it to another person -- requiting sorrow for wrong, this would be cruelty. But when God does it, God the law-giver and law enforcer, it is divine virtue.

Ok, I'm calling parody, you scrivner/delft or whatever are playing games.

 

[Scrivner]

Ok, I'm calling parody, you scrivner/delft or whatever are playing games.

No parody.




You seem to assume that the difference between God and man would not justify God acting differently toward people than he commands us to act toward people. Surely this assumption is wrong. First of all, God knows all things and is all wise. We are not only finite but sinful. As Jonathan Edwards said concerning God's right to do what we are forbidden to do:

It may be unfit and so immoral, for any other beings to go about to order this affair; because they are not possessed of a wisdom, that in any other manner fits them for it; -and in other respects they are not fit to be trusted with this affair; nor does it belong to-them, they not being the owners and Lords of the universe. (Freedom of the Will, New Haven: Yale University Press, p. 41 1)



​

When God says - "See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand," he is claiming moral prerogatives which we are denied. It is divinely virtuous to do something -- penalize wrongers -- that it would be cruel for us to do. The potter has rights which the pots do not have.


When he is God and he owns the world, what is divinely virtuous is what he does to it. The Bible is God's description of what he does to it, and there he tells us that he punishes the non-believing sinner.

 

[Cleany]

wow this thread is totally nuts!

scrivner i have a question for you - how do you know you are right?

 

[Edx]

I dont know how people keep parodies up so long, Nice one!!

 

[Scrivner]

wow this thread is totally nuts!

scrivner i have a question for you - how do you know you are right?

The Bible says that God punishes those who don't accept his pardon through Christ. God says it, that's how I know it.

This thread isn't nuts, it's just Biblical theology.

 

[bobhope]

I wish I had what Delft is smoking sometimes. It sounds like a powerful drug, and I like powerful drugs. I suppose he is smoking nonbelievers in his hell-pipe.

 

[Edx]

I tried but I cant find an amusing yet horiffying illustratiosn of a "blood god". But if youve ever seen Blade, its their dark Lord. Thats what Scrinver worshipps. lolz..1111

 

[bobhope]

I tried but I cant find an amusing yet horiffying illustratiosn of a "blood god". But if youve ever seen Blade, its their dark Lord. Thats what Scrinver worshipps. lolz..1111

I can't post images yet, so you'll have to click through. But here's a funny one:
http://www.songfight.org/pix/god_will_give_you_blood_to_drink/cover400.jpg