Taking the offense out of the CROSS!

[Soul Searcher]

The operation of divine judgment upon the non-believing sinner has as its end the destruction of the sinner.

wondering how someone can suffer infinite grief after having been destroyed?

 

[Scrivner]

The Bible does say that there are circumstances in which divine punishment
is not corrective but has as its end human destruction for its own sake. I
mean, the Bible is shot through with this claim. That is why it is so odd
to hear liberal Christians claim to believe that divine judgment is always
remedial. If you don't believe parts of the Bible, then why do you call
yourself a CHristian? What parts of the Bible do you believe and what
parts don't you believe? On what basis do you pick and choose?


"For after all, it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who
afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well
when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in
flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to
those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. And these will pay the
penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from
the glory of His power, when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that
day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed - for our testimony
to you was believed." (II Thessalonians 1:6-10)

 

[Soul Searcher]

The Bible does say that there are circumstances in which divine punishment
is not corrective but has as its end human destruction for its own sake. I
mean, the Bible is shot through with this claim. That is why it is so odd
to hear liberal Christians claim to believe that divine judgment is always
remedial. If you don't believe parts of the Bible, then why do you call
yourself a CHristian? What parts of the Bible do you believe and what
parts don't you believe? On what basis do you pick and choose?


"For after all, it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who
afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well
when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in
flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to
those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. And these will pay the
penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from
the glory of His power, when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that
day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed - for our testimony
to you was believed." (II Thessalonians 1:6-10)

In other words you can't answer the question

 

[Scrivner]

"And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power..." (II Thessalonians 1:9). This "destruction" spoken of here is not "annihilation", as some would have us believe, but rather "banishment." Such banishment from God's presence brings complete unending, ongoing ruin.

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

That is why it is so odd
to hear liberal Christians claim to believe that divine judgment is always
remedial. If you don't believe parts of the Bible, then why do you call
yourself a CHristian? What parts of the Bible do you believe and what
parts don't you believe? On what basis do you pick and choose?

Pot meet Kettle

 

[Im_A]

"And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power..." (II Thessalonians 1:9). This "destruction" spoken of here is not "annihilation", as some would have us believe, but rather "banishment." Such banishment from God's presence brings complete unending, ongoing ruin.

let's look at a different interpretation of that verse:



8in flaming fire, giving vengeance to those not knowing God, and to those not obeying the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ;
9who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, (Young's Literal)

that's an interesting one "age-during". must mean it isn't everlasting according to that translation.


there must be a reason why a whole translation can see something different than the rest of other translation. there must be an interpretatio method different.

if your relying on the English language to give you the truth, your going to keep coming to inconsistancy after inconsistancy.

 

[TScott]

If you don't believe parts of the Bible, then why do you call
yourself a CHristian? What parts of the Bible do you believe and what
parts don't you believe? On what basis do you pick and choose?

God gave us brains and it's only logical that he expects us to use them.

 

[Scrivner]

The Gospel is written to be believed and obeyed and not scrutinized with worldly wisdom in a way that would lead us to reject this presentation of the Good News: "There is a divine punishment for the violation of God's law that God would render upon the non-believing sinner or Christ as his substitute." "Thinking" that undoes this theology is worldly thinking that will ultimately expose you to the operation of God's infinite retribution.

“We preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to the Jews, an absurdity to the Gentiles, but to all those who are called, Jews and Gentiles alike, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God. For God's folly is wiser than men, and his weakness more powerful than men.”

"Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe."

"But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise."
​

 

[Scrivner]

We cannot expect worldly thinking to lead us to know true things about God, rather, worldly thinking which is subject to our fallen nature and our narcissistic attitutes will only lead us to question or doubt God's presentation of the nature of his law-enforcement mechanism of penalty for sin.

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

[FONT=&quot] Bibiolarty going to the highest bidder.
Going once
Going twice
Any takers?
Anyone???


[/FONT]

 

[Martinez]

"And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power..." (II Thessalonians 1:9). This "destruction" spoken of here is not "annihilation", as some would have us believe, but rather "banishment." Such banishment from God's presence brings complete unending, ongoing ruin.

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out undiluted into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:


Banishment eh?

Wow Delft, you really know what your talking about!

There's the wrath of God, and it doesn't include going away from His presence!

 

[Im_A]

using our brains isn't worldly thinking.

as far as i'm concerned, your using worldly understanding, because your using the English translation to guide your intepretation of the scriptures, instead of trying to search beyond the inconsistancies that we have all proven to you time and time again.

your worldly logic is relying on the grammatical rules of a language that the scriptures wasn't even written in.

whenever you want to actually debate about translations, instead of quoting Bible verses and posting them, i think many of us will actually think your actually worthwhile with getting a discussion with. but there is no point to discuss with you when poster after poster has pointed a question out, and pointed the inconsistancies, and all you do is quote scripture, i can do that as well. there are verses that put all those verses as utter contradiction if we are to look at it and translate it literally.

for example:
the will of God.
the world being subjected to Jesus, and then go to the Gospels and we see His Will, and there's no verse to say why Christ's Will would have even changed.

you want quotes or do you know what i'm talking about already and you are only believeing what you want out of the scriptures as you boastfully judge us as doing?

if you want actually quotes where, you'll have to wait till morning. i work tonight.

you have yet to talk about my post that showed that even the Eastern Orthodox Church, the very first established Christian church didn't see penal substitution as truth, so historically, it seems pretty evident that ET and PSA is nothing but man's addition.

please if your going to post and post, actually ENGAGE us, instead of just copying and pasteing scripture. you have shown us no reason that literal interpretation is the best method to interpretate, your just babble on and on.

and if your the same poster that got deleted cause they broke a specific rule about people being banned coming on as a different user, then just leave us alone and stop wasteing out time...please, and if you aren't just engage us, cause you've done none of the sort yet.

 

[Scrivner]

Is it holy to torture helpless creatures who do not understand and can not defend themselves? Is it justice to render a penalty that is a kzillion times more severe than the crime?

God directly answers your questions that rebel against God's law-enforcement policy:

5 But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is He? (I am speaking in human terms.) 6 May it never be! For otherwise, how will God judge the world?​

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness [injustice, wrong] with God? God forbid.

 

[Scrivner]

The idea that the Orthodox Church has always taught that divine wrath operates to heal and transfigure the non-believing sinner and thus humans don't stand in need of a penal atonement is a myth that is propagated by that Essay "The River of Fire." Just read the Bible -- it says that God requites wrong with sadness (not joy) as a mechanism of law enforcement. Hence, we need Christ's work to interpose between us and God's punishment.

 

[Martinez]

The idea that the Orthodox Church has always taught that divine wrath operates to heal and transfigure the non-believing sinner and thus humans don't stand in need of a penal atonement is a myth that is propagated by that Essay "The River of Fire." Just read the Bible -- it says that God requites wrong with sadness (not joy) as a mechanism of law enforcement. Hence, we need Christ's work to interpose between us and God's punishment.

Psa 30:5 For his anger endures but for a moment; in his favor is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy comes in the morning.


Delft,

are you still here?

 

[Soul Searcher]

I can quote scripture too

1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

I have researched your ET doctorines and I have proven them false and see nothing good whatsoever in the concept nor application of eternal vengance.

1Ti 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe.
1Ti 4:11 These things command and teach.

Can you find the good here?

 

[Scrivner]

I fear for the welfare of your eternal soul if you intentionally yield yourself to the operation of God's infinite punishment which has as its end human destruction rather than human correction:

we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense, how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?​

Don't neglect the atonement of Jesus Christ or you will not avoid the just recompense, you will not be saved.

 

[Scrivner]

God said that he requites misery on those who are cruel to others, thereby violation the divine law. God said it. "After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard, 4 God also bearing witness with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will."

 

[Scrivner]

The reason why God chooses a law enforcement policy of penal punishment of the law-breaker (rather than a policy of remedial punishment of the law-breaker) is that the suffering of the non-Christian which is generate by penal punishment is glorifying to God.

This suffering is more glorifying than would be the joy of the non-Christian (which would be generated by a pedagogical punishement) -- if it had been otherwise, God could easily have re-adjusted his law-enforcement mechanism.

God glorifies himself by rendering rewards upon those who worship him and by rendering penalties upon those who would prefer not to. Neither group will ultimately be correctively transfigured (because there is no purgatory) but both groups will remain as they are as they are and alternately rewarded or penalized.

This is the good news that God tells humanity in the Bible. It is only the hardness of your heart if you don't perceive it as good or if you don't find it plausible.

 

[Martinez]

I fear for the welfare of your eternal soul

Even in the first line you follow false man made traditions!

Man does not have an immortal soul!