Taking Question on the Creation and/or the Flood

[AV1611VET]

This makes absolutely no sense because if it really was perfect...

Stop right here --- at this point, it is no longer perfect.

...he could never have had any reason to curse it into imperfection.

God created the universe perfect --- then handed it over to Adam and Eve.

Adam and Eve gave it to Satan.

Satan then attempted to hand it over to Jesus (for a price) --- and Jesus refused to take it.

(Can you imagine what Satan would have done with a perfect universe?)

Jesus will be back soon to reclaim and re-perfect it.

 

[AV1611VET]

Neither reliable nor scientific nor testable.

Depends on what you're using for a laboratory.

 

[AV1611VET]

where did the water come from, and where did it go? its a very simple question

The water came from two sources:

• A water canopy surrounding the earth.
• Subterranean supplies.

[bible]Genesis 7:11[/bible]

The water was later removed by God --- possibly raptured - (i.e. translated elsewhere).

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Stop right here --- at this point, it is no longer perfect.

How does a perfect creation become imperfect?

God created the universe perfect --- then handed it over to Adam and Eve.

so Adam and Eve weren't perfect? Weren't they part of the original perfect creation?

Adam and Eve gave it to Satan.

And God didn't know this would happen to His perfect creation? Did God create Satan or not? If He did didn't He know that Satan would mess up His perfect creation. How could a creation with Satan in it be perfect? Since you claim that the serpent in the garden was Satan does this mean that Satan has to go on his belly and eat dust all the days of his life?

Didn't God know that his "sons" would mate with the daughters of men creating the giants in the earth that apparently caused such evil that God was forced (your word) to repent his creation and destroy it with a big flood? How could the sons of a perfect God cause such havok? I guess God didn't raise them very well. But wait! Weren't they part of the original perfect creation? How did they become so bad if they were part of a perfect creation?

By the way who was the mother of these sons of God that made such trouble?

 

[MarcusHill]

To summarise the Flood answers so far:

Magic man done it. By magic.

 

[Loudmouth]

AV,

What observation, if observed, would falsify a young earth (if radiometric dating explain further), a recent global flood, or special creation?

 

[MrGoodBytes]

Depends on what you're using for a laboratory.

Exactly which type of laboratory do you plan to use for testing whether Heaven exists or not? Which experiment could help decide whether salvation comes through works or faith?

 

[consol]

I'll take questions on the Creation and/or the Flood, and do my best to answer them from a Biblical perspective.

I major in both areas.

The past was different than it is today. Different "kinds" of animals existed then. As I have said before, if you were to observe all the animals that boarded the Ark, in my opinion, you would not have recognized half of them.

Because the fossil record isn't nearly as old as you think it is.

God did it.

I'm not interested in what your textbooks teach, I'm interested in what my Bible says.
And if your textbooks disagree with my Bible, your textbooks are wrong.

That's not the way He did it. He created it perfect --- then later cursed it into imperfection.

Creation = 4044 BC

Flood = 2450 BC

In my opinion, there is no known evidence that falsifies "special creation" or a world-wide flood.

These are just a few of the idiotic ramblings of AV1611VET.

Now that DAD and JohnR are gone, the mantle of thickest on the forum
must now go to AV1611VET, and the job of keeping us amused passes to him,
with his fanatical devotion to the King something or other bible, he pulls out stuff no one else can find,
and what he can't find he makes up, he feels it's his duty.

Not in the least bit shy, our AV1611VET will make himself look like a fool at the drop of a hat,
firm in the knowledge he is going to heaven one day, no matter how much he turns God into a laughing stock,
and he feels his pea sized brain is more than enough to understand the bible and
hand out lessons on it by saying Goddidit whenever he can,
some love him to bits, because he is easy to understand, Goddidit.

So let's hear it for AV1611VET, may he outlive us all, because when he eventually
comes face to face with his maker, his nuts will be put in the crusher for the damage
he has done to Christianity, because as an example of a Christian he is not much cop,
plenty of scripture but not a lot of brain, although, one out of two is not bad.

All the best AV1611VET, I wish you well in this life and the next, and hope your God is a forgiving God.

 

[mpok1519]

Odd. There are many ancient artifacts dating back to 15,000 BC, yet earth has only existed for 6440.

Yikes!

dont listen to them AV. We all need our own individual perceptions ranging from the far left to hte far right end of the spectrum. If we were all somewhere in the middle life wouldn't be very diverse....

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

I would surmise that they are right there where your textbooks say they are - (so far, that is, that may change as "new evidence" becomes available).

Here's the problem with "evidence" like this, though:

You interpret this evidence using a method called uniformitarianism (as yesterday - so today), whereas I use the method called catastrophism (unlike yesterday - so not today).

This makes it difficult for us to have a meeting of the minds.

I have no problem with catastrophies. There is evidence of many great catastropies in earth's history. There were supervolcanoes such as Toba and the Yellowstone eruptions and there have been many massive earth impacts from space such as Chixulub which hit an energy with 75-100 million megatons of TNT and Sudbury and Vredefort which were even bigger but all these catastrophies occured well before the Paleolithic and there is no evidence that any of the Paleolithic, Neolithic or predynastic Egyptian civilizations or Dynastic Egypt were ever affected by a global flood. Yet the evidence that both dynastic and Predynastic Egypt existed long before your supposed flood date of 2450 BC is overwhelming. There is simply no way to fit all these predynastic cultures and all of Egyptian history into less than 4,500 years.

I have a question for you: Are penguins in the fossil record?

Yes, there is a fossil record of penguins. What would you like to know about it?

The reason I ask that, is that I notice that people seem to not understand the concept of "kinds" in the Bible; and I suspect it is because they are not (repeat: not) found in the fossil records.

No its because "kinds" is not a concept that makes and kind of sense from a scientific standpoint.

This tells me that the fossil records that are used, are the fossil records from after the Flood.

So you are claiming that thousands of feet of stratified sediments containing fossil unique to each of the many geologic eras formed in the 4,500 years after the flood? This sounds a bit like the recolanization model but it doesn't really make any sense.

Therefore, you cannot use fossil records to refute the Flood, because you are using the wrong one.

The fossil record is only one of a long list of things that falsifies the global flood.

For example, where are the fossils for Felix onsetus?

There is a fossil record of the Felidea and there was a common ancestor of cats, probably about 11 million years ago. It that what you are referring to?

If there are none --- it tells me one of two things: either there are none (which contradicts the Bible), or they were destroyed completely by some catastrophe.

And this is where uniformitarianism comes in conflict with catastrophism.

No it's where reality conflicts with the fantasy of a recent global flood.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Lucifer, His chief angel, rebelled, and 1/3 of the angels rebelled with him.

Of that 1/3, a small handful cohabited with the women on earth, and created a race of giants.

So Lucifer and the rebellious angels were the sons of God that mated with the daughters of men? How did an omnipotent, omniscient God end up fathering such rotton children? Their mother must have really been something. Did God create her too? How did God's supposedly perfect creation contain the evil monsters that His sons turned out to be?

In the meantime, moral decay had reached its maximum peak.

It was time for someone to do something, and God stepped in.

So God's perfect creation had become so messed up that He had to "step in" and drown every man, woman, child, infant and unborn child on earth as well as all the animals, that is until he noticed Noah and decided to save a handful.

 

[TheOutsider]

Lucifer, His chief angel, rebelled, and 1/3 of the angels rebelled with him.

Of that 1/3, a small handful cohabited with the women on earth, and created a race of giants.

In the meantime, moral decay had reached its maximum peak.

It was time for someone to do something, and God stepped in.

Wait a second. From this story I could conclude two things:

1) Your God is neither omnipotent or omniscient.
2) Satan has as much, if not more, power than God.

Is this really what you believe?

 

[FishFace]

Clearly, this is a new religion we've not come across before. A religion where God creates a perfect creation (except humans) and lives it in the hands of the imperfect part of the perfect creation (the humans) not realising that they would wreck it.
Oh, there were also imperfect angels as part of this perfect creation, and God also didn't realise that the imperfect ones were going to rebel and make with the lovin' with the earth-chicks.
Then God, in his infinite mercy, decided that enough was enough. His perfect creation had been ruined by the imperfect part of his perfect creation, so he decided to make it all better by killing all the imperfections - clearly he hadn't thought of just not creating the imperfections in the first place, but who are we to question the ways of God. Anyway, in his infinite wisdom (and infinite mercy) he decided the best way to kill everything was with a flood, not with insta-death or lightning.

Apparently he, in his infinite knowledge, forgot about us for a while, realised the earth was still cursed (because, apparently, the imperfect part of the perfect creation did something bad to the perfect part) and this curse (sin) was separating man from God. He obviously wasn't aware that this was going to happen at the start, but at least he got around to it eventually.

Somehow, though, he overlooked the cursed part - apparently when killing all the imperfect humans off he forgot to actually decurse the earth, because it's still not exactly brilliant. Hope remains, apparently, that God, in his infinite knowledge, wisdom and mercy, will remember this and do something about it in the near future, and rapture all the good folks away.
Clearly, God, in his omnipresence, must have been out at the shops for a while, thus preventing him from doing all of this 6,000 years ago when the world began.


Now, excuse me for a moment, but the God I just described isn't so much a deity as a bumbling fool.

 

[consol]

Wait a second. From this story I could conclude two things:

1) Your God is neither omnipotent or omniscient.
2) Satan has as much, if not more, power than God.

Is this really what you believe?

His brain is so addled with scripture he doesn't know what to think,
what with ghosts and angels, omnipotent this and omniscient that,
humping devils and people, I should think he has finally flipped,
this is about as low as a Christian sinks, believing angels had sex with humans,
it's so very sad what too much religion can do to a person,
he will be saying little green men helped populate the world next, completely off his trolly.

Something should be done about religion, we know that governments
encourage religions to flourish, but when it gets out of hand they should
step in to stop it damaging the country, which is what it has done and is
still doing in the states, it's dragging it down to a new low.

Stupidity seems to be the new level to aim for.

 

[us38]

You interpret this evidence using a method called uniformitarianism (as yesterday - so today), whereas I use the method called catastrophism (unlike yesterday - so not today).

This is completely bull****, and you know it. You didn't wake up this morning worrying about the floor electrocuting you. You didn't cotemplate snorting salt to cure your hunger. You didn't walk outside wondering if you would sink into the ground. You know why? Because none of that happened yesterday. You accept uniformatarianism. The only time you claim you don't is when the evidence disagrees with you.

 

[Nathan Poe]

So God's perfect creation had become so messed up that He had to "step in" and drown every man, woman, child, infant and unborn child on earth as well as all the animals, that is until he noticed Noah and decided to save a handful.

And ending up not only failing "operation genocide" -- i.e. some of those giants did survive; see Goliath, but choosing the wrong man to be His paragon of virtue -- look at Noah's behavior immediately after the flood ended.

 

[JamesDaJust]

[

quote=TheOutsider;37785545]Wait a second. From this story I could conclude two things:

1) Your God is neither omnipotent or omniscient.
2) Satan has as much, if not more, power than God.

Is this really what you believe?

[/QUOTE] II Corinthians 4:3 (But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost;
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, Who is the image of God, should shine unto them. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus sake.
JamesDaJust

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

II Corinthians 4:3 (But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost;
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, Who is the image of God, should shine unto them. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus sake.
JamesDaJust

The YEC literal interpretation of Genesis that leads to both scientific and apologetic absurdities has nothing to do with accepting the Gospel of Christ. I guess by throwing out a verse like this you admit that you can't even begin to address the issues that have been raised on this thread.

 

[JamesDaJust]

The YEC literal interpretation of Genesis that leads to both scientific and apologetic absurdities has nothing to do with accepting the Gospel of Christ. I guess by throwing out a verse like this you admit that you can't even begin to address the issues that have been raised on this thread.

Yes but I believe a little different than my brother AV so I was only responding to the quote...

2) Satan has as much, if not more, power than God.

[/quote] II Corinthians 4:3 (But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost;
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, Who is the image of God, should shine unto them. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus sake.
JamesDaJust

 

[JamesDaJust]

The YEC literal interpretation of Genesis that leads to both scientific and apologetic absurdities has nothing to do with accepting the Gospel of Christ. I guess by throwing out a verse like this you admit that you can't even begin to address the issues that have been raised on this thread.

Adam was told the day he ate of that particular "tree" he would surely die and he lived till almost a 1,000 years and II Peter 3;8&9 (But beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

JameDaJust