Taking Question on the Creation and/or the Flood

[MarcusHill]

That reminds me of a book I used to have called 2 Minute Mysteries, in which a man tries to sell another man a gold coin dated 50 BC (or something like that), and the potential buyer immediately ascertains the coin is a fake.

How did he know?

Because the coin is dated "50 BC"? After all, even the super-accurate Bible prophecies weren't dated.

That reminds me of the opening to that Van Damme Timecop movie, where they claim to have carbon-dated gold to the end of the 19th century. I literally laughed out loud when I saw that.

 

[AV1611VET]

So Lucifer and the rebellious angels were the sons of God that mated with the daughters of men?

Lucifer/Satan did not take part in that. Had he done so, he too would have been consigned to "everlasting chains" for not "keeping his first estate".

[bible]Jude 1:6[/bible]

How did an omnipotent, omniscient God end up fathering such rotton children?

Huh???

Their mother must have really been something.

I'm sorry --- you have totally lost me here.

Did God create her too?

Who?

How did God's supposedly perfect creation contain the evil monsters that His sons turned out to be?

The "sons of God" are angels.

[bible]Job 38:6-7[/bible]

In [complimentary] Hebrew poetry, a fact is stated, then restated, using different words.

Note in verse 7 how the "morning stars" are restated as "sons of God"? The Bible interprets Itself.

So God's perfect creation had become so messed up that He had to "step in" and drown every man, woman, child, infant and unborn child on earth as well as all the animals, that is until he noticed Noah and decided to save a handful.

All flesh had corrupted itself on the face of the earth.

These people were already probably suffering terribly with STDs, crime, etc.

The Flood would have been sweet relief to some of them.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

By being cursed by the One Who created it.

So even though God considered HIs creation "perfect" He cursed it. Now it looks like you think God is shizophrenic.

In Genesis 1 they were.

So Adam and Eve were perfect in Genesis 1. How were these perfect beings so easily tempted by the serpent?

Yes, He did know it would happen.

So God knew He would end up cursing his creation but He still called it good and you think it was perfect. Do you have any clue as to how illogical this is?

[semantics warning] No --- He created Lucifer.

And was Lucifer part of God's perfect creation?

Satan didn't "mess up" His perfect Creation --- he didn't have the power, or the authority to. God "messed up" His own.

So now you think God messed up His perfect creation. Why would He do that. Did He just want to curse things and drown people and animals with a global flood?


Originally Posted by Frumious Bandersnatch
How could a creation with Satan in it be perfect?

It can't --- [semantics warning] --- Satan wasn't in the Creation --- Lucifer was.

So where did Satan come from and how could a creation with Lucifer in it be "pefect"?

Yes --- as long as Satan tries to use that form (assuming he can today), he will have to eat dust.

The verse says
And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Now if the Serpent really was Satan, rather than just a serpent, it means that for the Bible to be literally true Satan can't do anything but crawl on his belly and eat dust all the days of his life. That must have made it a bit difficult when he tempted Christ.


Originally Posted by Frumious Bandersnatch
Didn't God know that his "sons" would mate with the daughters of men creating the giants in the earth that apparently caused such evil that God was forced (your word) to repent his creation and destroy it with a big flood? How could the sons of a perfect God cause such havok? I guess God didn't raise them very well. But wait! Weren't they part of the original perfect creation? How did they become so bad if they were part of a perfect creation?

Genesis 6:1-2
1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.


These "sons of God" were angels --- not men.

So are you saying that they weren't literally the "sons of God" and the Bible is not literally true when it calls them the sons of God?

[bible]Job 38:6-7

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
[/bible]


Originally Posted by Frumious Bandersnatch
By the way who was the mother of these sons of God that made such trouble?

See above answer.

This does not answer the question. Did God create these angels who were not literally His sons even though the Bible literally calls them His sons? Were these evil being that mated with daughters of men causing so much wickedness that God was forced to repent of His creation and drown nearly everything with a big flood part of God's orginal perfect creation?

 

[AV1611VET]

Wait a second. From this story I could conclude two things:

1) Your God is neither omnipotent or omniscient.
2) Satan has as much, if not more, power than God.

Is this really what you believe?

I believe the account, as it was documented in the King James Bible, to be the truth in written form.

 

[AV1611VET]

If God knows that Satan is going to ruin his Creation...

I guarantee you, Satan didn't "ruin" God's creation. He doesn't have that kind of power.

I disagree anyway with the word "ruin" --- "cursed" is better --- and God cursed it --- not Satan.

 

[AV1611VET]

AV1611VET,
Are you a creationist?

Yes.

 

[AV1611VET]

How old are you?

53

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Lucifer/Satan did not take part in that. Had he done so, he too would have been consigned to "everlasting chains" for not "keeping his first estate".

[bible]Jude 1:6[/bible]

So Lucifer is an Angel but not one of the Sons of God that mated with the daughters of men. OK


Originally Posted by Frumious Bandersnatch
How did an omnipotent, omniscient God end up fathering such rotton children?

Huh???

If they were the sons of God, God fathered them right? But I guess we have now decided that the Bible is not literally true and they weren't literally the sons of God.


Originally Posted by Frumious Bandersnatch
Their mother must have really been something.

I'm sorry --- you have totally lost me here.

It seems that the sons of God should have had a mother or mothers as well as a father (God) but now that we have decided that they were not really the sons of God and that the Bible is not really literally true I guess that problem is solved.

The "sons of God" are angels.


[bible]Job 38:6-7
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
[/bible]

A literal interpretation of this verse would be that the stars were singing and that the sons of God shouted. Nowhere does it say that that sons of God are angels but I guess we have already decided that the Bible is not literally true.

In [complimentary] Hebrew poetry, a fact is stated, then restated, using different words.

Note in verse 7 how the "morning stars" are restated as "sons of God"? The Bible interprets Itself.

The Bible interprets itself?? If it is literally true it shouldn't have to interpret itself.

Originally Posted by Frumious Bandersnatch
So God's perfect creation had become so messed up that He had to "step in" and drown every man, woman, child, infant and unborn child on earth as well as all the animals, that is until he noticed Noah and decided to save a handful.

All flesh had corrupted itself on the face of the earth.

These people were already probably suffering terribly with STDs, crime, etc.

So people got STD's from those wicked sons of God? Or did God create STDs for people just so it would be sweet relief when He drowned them?

The Flood would have been sweet relief to some of them.

And the only way God could fix these problems, that were caused by His sons that weren't literally His sons was to drown everything. I can't imagine that being swept away by a global flood would be sweet relief. This is just another failed attempt to justify what YECs claim to have been the greatest mass murder ever.

 

[AV1611VET]

So are you saying that they weren't literally the "sons of God" and the Bible is not literally true when it calls them the sons of God?

I'll pick up here tomorrow --- but I'll address this point you're making in the short time I have left.

I quoted Job in describing these sons of God. Job is Hebrew poetry --- as I indicated.

Specifically, Job 38:7 is called [complimentary] Hebrew poetry.

A fact is stated --- then restated using different terminology.

There is also what is called [contrasting] Hebrew poetry, and, if my memory serves me correctly, [constructive] Hebrew poetry.

Either way --- it is poetry.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

I'll pick up here tomorrow --- but I'll address this point you're making in the short time I have left.

I quoted Job in describing these sons of God. Job is Hebrew poetry --- as I indicated.

Specifically, Job 38:7 is called [complimentary] Hebrew poetry.

A fact is stated --- then restated using different terminology.

There is also what is called [contrasting] Hebrew poetry, and, if my memory serves me correctly, [constructive] Hebrew poetry.

Either way --- it is poetry.

Genesis also states and restates things because it is also Hebrew poetry and has nothing to do with the actual formation of the earth or the prehistory of the human race.

 

[Loudmouth]

AV,

What observation, if observed, would falsify a young earth, a recent global flood, and special creaiton?

 

[FishFace]

God indeed created the light, before He created its source --- another blow to scientific paradigms.

Well... not really.

 

[MrGoodBytes]

This one ---


The post-mortem experiment.

Allow me to refresh your memory, AV:

do you have any reliable, empirical, scientific evidence that would lead one to conclude that there was a massive global flood some 4000 years ago?

Yes ---

Neither reliable nor scientific nor testable.

Depends on what you're using for a laboratory.

Exactly which type of laboratory do you plan to use for testing whether Heaven exists or not? Which experiment could help decide whether salvation comes through works or faith?

This one ---

Can you perhaps see anything wrong with your argument, AV?

 

[AV1611VET]

So even though God considered HIs creation "perfect" He cursed it.

Yes.

So Adam and Eve were perfect in Genesis 1.

Yes.

How were these perfect beings so easily tempted by the serpent?

Perfection is not a guarantee against failure --- omnipotence is.

So God knew He would end up cursing his creation but He still called it good and you think it was perfect.

He called it "very good" --- and yes, I think it was perfect.

Note this verse --- speaking of Lucifer:

Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Do you have any clue as to how illogical this is?

I have a clue you're getting perfect and omnipotent mixed up.

And was Lucifer part of God's perfect creation?

Yes.

So now you think God messed up His perfect creation.

The correct term is "cursed".

Why would He do that.

For one thing, as a punishment for their actions.

For another thing, Adam and Eve handed the universe over to Satan. Can you imagine what he could do with a perfect universe? With no death, for instance, we would be here on the earth, in the presence of Satan, forever.

Thirdly, cursing His creation allowed for His Son to execute His plan of redemption.

[bible]Galatians 3:13[/bible]

Did He just want to curse things and drown people and animals with a global flood?

No ---

The Lord is ... not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[AV1611VET]

If they were the sons of God, God fathered them right?

Wrong --- "son" doesn't always carry the connotation of "offspring".

The Bible says we will be made sons of God, through adoption.

[bible]Galatians 4:4-6[/bible]

In the case of the angels, I suspect they are referred poetically as sons of God due to the fact that they were directly created by God.

Adam too, has that poetic connotation:

[bible]Luke 3:38[/bible]

A literal interpretation of this verse would be that the stars were singing and that the sons of God shouted.

Yes --- and therefore it's not a literal interpretation.

So people got STD's from those wicked sons of God?

No --- from each other. Not all the women cohabited with the angels.

This is just another failed attempt to justify what YECs claim to have been the greatest mass murder ever.

I'm not a YEC.

 

[AV1611VET]

Genesis also states and restates things because it is also Hebrew poetry and has nothing to do with the actual formation of the earth or the prehistory of the human race.

I strongly disagree.

 

[AV1611VET]

AV,

What observation, if observed, would falsify a young earth, a recent global flood, and special creaiton?

I really don't understand this question.

 

[AV1611VET]

Can you perhaps see anything wrong with your argument, AV?

No --- what better way to test things than in the laboratory of the King James Bible?

 

[MrGoodBytes]

No --- what better way to test things than in the laboratory of the King James Bible?

Please demonstrate how you intend to empirically (remember the original question?) test the claim "Whoever believes in Jesus has eternal life", for example, using only the KJV.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Originally Posted by Frumious Bandersnatch
So even though God considered HIs creation "perfect" He cursed it.

Yes.

So God's supposedly perfect creation was so messed up that he cursed it. You still don't comprehend how blatantly absurd this is do you?


Originally Posted by Frumious Bandersnatch
So Adam and Eve were perfect in Genesis 1.

Yes.

Originally Posted by Frumious Bandersnatch
How were these perfect beings so easily tempted by the serpent?

Perfection is not a guarantee against failure --- omnipotence is.

Perfect beings created perfectly by a supposedly ominipotent God failed almost immediately. Or was the being who created Adam and Eve not Omnipotent? After all He first considered them perfect and then ended up cursing them.


So God knew He would end up cursing his creation but He still called it good and you think it was perfect.

He called it "very good" --- and yes, I think it was perfect.

So God cursed his very good creation that you think was perfect. You still don't get it do you?

Note this verse --- speaking of Lucifer: Ezekiel 28:15
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

How could iniquity be found in something that was perfect? If Lucifer contained iniquity to be found he wasn't perfect and whoever thought He was perfect was obviously not omniscient.


Originally Posted by Frumious Bandersnatch
Do you have any clue as to how illogical this is?

I have a clue you're getting perfect and omnipotent mixed up.

Sorry but a perfect entity created by an omnipotent and omniscient deity should not have "fallen" at the first temptation. You are still trapped in illogic.


Originally Posted by Frumious Bandersnatch
And was Lucifer part of God's perfect creation?

Yes.

So God's perfect creation included a being with iniquity that was eventually found. I would say that was not so perfect after all. I guess the creator who made what He thought was a good and even perfect creation that actually contained inquity that was eventually revealed was neither omnipotent nor omniscient.


Originally Posted by Frumious Bandersnatch
So now you think God messed up His perfect creation.

The correct term is "cursed".

So now were are back to a shizophrenic God first creating something "perfect" and then cursing it.

Originally Posted by Frumious Bandersnatch
Why would He do that?

For one thing, as a punishment for their actions.

So those perfect being created by an omnipotent and omniscient deity very quickly did something that required punishment by that deity.

For another thing, Adam and Eve handed the universe over to Satan. Can you imagine what he could do with a perfect universe? With no death, for instance, we would be here on the earth, in the presence of Satan, forever.

Where does it say that Adam and Eve "handed the universe over to satan? But I'll grant that as part of the myth. Now we have the story as follows, An omniscient and omnipotent God creates a perfect universe with perfect beings BUT one of them is inquitous and gets two of the others to hand this perfect universe over to him. The supposedly omnipotent God does nothing to prevent this " handover" of the perfect universe but does "curse" the perfect universe so that it isn't perfect anymore. I guess this supposedly omnipotent God was afraid of what would happen if he let one of the beings he created get ahold a perfect universe.

Thirdly, cursing His creation allowed for His Son to execute His plan of redemption.

Oh so He knew in the first place that his perfect universe would be so messed up that it would have to be redeemed. Then why did He call it Good? Why do you think it was perfect?

[bible]Galatians 3:13

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
[/bible]

Originally Posted by Frumious Bandersnatch
Did He just want to curse things and drown people and animals with a global flood?

No ---

So are you saying that He didn't know He would end up doing this? He didn't know He would ended up cursing his creation? He didn't know He would end up repenting of his creation and flooding it? But if he is truely omniscient He did know and He created a Universe that He knew He would end up cursing and flooding so He must have wanted to do it.

2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is ... not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

So did He give all those people he drowned with the flood a chance to repent? How about the various people he ordered the Isrealites to massacre? Did he give them a chance to repent? Did He give the 42 children who were mauled by a bear for mocking Elisha a chance to repent?