Taking Question on the Creation and/or the Flood

[Nathan Poe]

Consider this:

If you were in the business of building perfect cars, and someone bought one of your cars and wrecked it --- who's to blame?

A "perfect car" would be indestructible.

 

[Nathan Poe]

We may look like apes, but God says we aren't.

God flunked high-school biology -- all that "bats are birds" nonsense didn't help either.

 

[Basket]

God flunked high-school biology -- all that "bats are birds" nonsense didn't help either.

Or maybe the ancient Hebrews just had a different scheme of classifying their animals?

 

[mpok1519]

Yes, I agree with the fact that God made us in his spiritual image rather than physical one, for God's image encompasses the entire universe.

A) God is omnipotent= He is all powerful. He does what He wants, how He wants. Why? Only He knows
B) God is omnipresent= He is EVERYWHERE, ie, in the trees, rocks, winds, etc. His Image is engraved within EVERYTHING.

Since the realms/possibility of God exist ultimately everywhere and everysecond, He IS EVERYTHING.

With this known, everything in the Bible can be misinterpreted to the whims of one's own perceptive faculties.

IE, we are in God's image, but so are the trees, rocks, winds and lightning.

We are humans that came from apes that came from God.

 

[thaumaturgy]

53 --- with the mentality of a teenager.

In the movie Jaws, there's a scene where they're standing on the dock with a Tiger Shark. Hooper says, "It's a tiger shark"; and a man looks at him and says, "A whaaaaaat?"

I could very easily pass for that guy, and be his stunt-double.

Well, you have to give AV some props. Anyone with sufficiently close knowledge of the movie Jaws, down to knowing the lines and even recognizing side characters is really a great skill.

If you were about 10 years younger I'd say you were my best friend from elementary school. Back in the 70's he named all his dogs after characters in Jaws. He of course started with Brody, but Brody died when hit by a car, then he had Quint, and Quint took up the chase after the great shark of the car and he too died. But Hooper lived a long life and died of old age. Presumably when he saw the cars coming he hid behind the rock at the bottom of the shoal.

 

[us38]

Or maybe the ancient Hebrews just had a different scheme of classifying their animals?

Whether or not hebrews had a different way of classifying animals, god would know the difference. Thus, the error is evidence of non-inspiration.

 

[Redac]

Just a thought!!! since truth cant contradict truth and the evidence from science on this is overwhelming, maybe you are simply misinterpreting the bible and both the bible and nature are correct.
EDIT:for example - perhaps we are made in the spiritual rather than physical image of God.

But that would differ from AV's literal interpretation of the Bible, which would make you automatically wrong.

 

[Basket]

Whether or not hebrews had a different way of classifying animals, god would know the difference. Thus, the error is evidence of non-inspiration.

Perhaps you have forgotten that the Old Testament was not written in English. Rather, it was written in Hebrew. The word translated into English as "birds" also includes bats.

If you look at the verses in Leviticus 11:1-47, it orders the animals according to whether they live on the ground, air, or sea, whether they are grazing animals or other land animals, and so on.

It makes sense that the paragraph about birds also includes bats, considering these two facts.

I personally do not find it likely that God wrote the Old Testament himself, but this is a fallacious argument against the idea.

 

[Basket]

Also, what I meant about the Hebrews using a different scheme to classify their animals is that they did not use the same attributes that modern scientists did to group them together. Modern scientists try to match their phenotype, and lately their genotype as closely as possible when grouping the animals. Phenotype being physical appearance, and genotype being genetic makeup of the animal. The ancient Hebrews did this to a degree with the hooved animals and grazing animals thing, but were on the whole rather loose about it in comparison to modern standards.

And that's why the word in Hebrew that means bird also means bat.

I don't mean to be grouchy... I guess I'm just having a bad day.

 

[gamespotter10]

I'll take questions on the Creation and/or the Flood, and do my best to answer them from a Biblical perspective.

I major in both areas.

where did the water come from, and where did it go? its a very simple question

 

[AV1611VET]

Even Answers in Genesis knows that the water canopy idea is wrong.

As an independent, I don't answer to Answers in Genesis. If they think the Water Canopy theory is wrong, that, of course, is their prerogrative.

If the water canopy caused any substancial rain, the Earth's temperature would have been intolerably high.

Any collateral issues (natural or otherwise) that would have attempted to keep God from sending the Flood, I'm sure was dealt with promptly by Him. As the disciples so aptly put it, "...even the wind and the sea obey him."

[bible]Matthew 8:27[/bible]

Saying "subterranean sources" is far too vague. Since I don't know what you mean by "subterranean sources", I'll just refer you to the talk origins page that refutes many of the sources commonly referred to by creationists(including AiG).

By "subterranean sources", I mean "fountains of the great deep."

[bible]Genesis 7:11[/bible]

Also, I noticed that you didn't even try to answer where the waters went to when the flood receded.

I don't know where they went. Just as in Elijah's time, when the water vanished at God's discretion.

[bible]1 Kings 18:38[/bible]

If God did it my way, He still could have used it as a warning. I think if everyone except Noah's family was killed by God, people would remember (they remembered the flood, after all).

What people would have remembered? They all died in the Flood. Also, the Flood was "remembered", because it was documented.

 

[Nathan Poe]

As an independent, I don't answer to Answers in Genesis. If they think the Water Canopy theory is wrong, that, of course, is their prerogrative.

As someone who claims to seek truth, you would be wise to seek the counsel of people more in the know. Since Answers in Genesis has at least pretended to research the subject, you might want to note them well when they say the water canopy theory is wrong.

Any collateral issues (natural or otherwise) that would have attempted to keep God from sending the Flood, I'm sure was dealt with promptly by Him.

So you're just going to keep saying "Goddidit" all day long?

As the disciples so aptly put it, "...even the wind and sea obey him."

[bible]Matthew 8:27[/bible]

They were referring to Jesus, in astonishment at one of his miracles.

By "subterranean sources", I mean "fountains of the great deep."

[bible]Genesis 7:11[/bible]

How poetic. Where were these fountains?

I don't know where they went.

An honest answer, but hardly what we'd expect from someone who "eats Atheists for breakfast."

What people would have remembered? They all died in the Flood. Also, the Flood was "remembered", because it was documented.

By whom? They all died in the Flood, remember?

 

[AV1611VET]

It does bring up the question of just how perfect God's creation was, if his genetic coding is incapable of surviving a single Biblical book without decaying.

There was no genetic decay in Genesis 1.

 

[Nathan Poe]

There was no genetic decay in Genesis 1.

Verse?

 

[AV1611VET]

Ok, two questions:

1) What is a "kind"?

A "kind" is a unique animal that is at the very top of its taxon. For clarification purposes, and to create a working definition, I have thought of it this way:

• Felix onsetus
• Canis onsetus
• Lupus onsetus
• Equus onsetus
• etc.

2)How did we get from these prototypes to the current set of species that are all around us?

I'm not quite sure what the best term is: genetic decay, adaption, microevolution.

 

[AV1611VET]

But we see evidence of continuous culture in many areas of the globe stretching back to well before you claim the flood occured. So I ask again, focusing on the Middle East,

When was the Paleolithic?
Specifically what is the time frame during which the Qadan and Sebilian developed in Egypt?

When was the Neolitihic
Specifically when did the the successive cultures known as Tasian, Badarian and Amratian(Naqada I) develop?
When did the Prodynastic Naqada III culture develop from the earlier Naqada cultures?

When did the Early Bronze Age begin?
For example when were upper and lower predynastic Egypt united to form the the Old Kingdom?

I would surmise that they are right there where your textbooks say they are - (so far, that is, that may change as "new evidence" becomes available).

Here's the problem with "evidence" like this, though:

You interpret this evidence using a method called uniformitarianism (as yesterday - so today), whereas I use the method called catastrophism (unlike yesterday - so not today).

This makes it difficult for us to have a meeting of the minds.

[be right back] --- [okay, moving on]

I have a question for you: Are penguins in the fossil record?

The reason I ask that, is that I notice that people seem to not understand the concept of "kinds" in the Bible; and I suspect it is because they are not (repeat: not) found in the fossil records.

This tells me that the fossil records that are used, are the fossil records from after the Flood.

Therefore, you cannot use fossil records to refute the Flood, because you are using the wrong one.

For example, where are the fossils for Felix onsetus?

If there are none --- it tells me one of two things: either there are none (which contradicts the Bible), or they were destroyed completely by some catastrophe.

And this is where uniformitarianism comes in conflict with catastrophism.

 

[FishFace]

A "kind" is a unique animal that is at the very top of its taxon. For clarification purposes, and to create a working definition, I have thought of it this way:

• Felix onsetus
• Canis onsetus
• Lupus onsetus
• Equus onsetus
• etc.

Explain further. I know of no way of determining the animal "at the top" of a taxon. Indeed, which kind of taxon? Species, genus, family, order, kingdom - these are all taxa.

I'm not quite sure what the best term is: genetic decay

Unlikely a good term, since genetic decay occurs through oxidation of DNA and suchlike, and renders DNA useless. If you used it to mean the degradation of DNA, then we have observed DNA "upgrading," so I don't see how that fits.

adaption,

Too vague. Adaption could mean any level of evolution, or just getting a tan.

microevolution

.

Microevolution is evolution below the level of species. If only microevolution occurred, then we would have one species per kind.

 

[Allister]

In Genesis God said "let there be light" and he called the light day and the darkness night, later God creates the sun, the moon and stars. What is this light and where is it coming from?

 

[AV1611VET]

But the key question is Why do both Egyptian and Sumerian Cultures seem to date back continously through the Neolithic with no evidence of ever having been interupted by a global flood?

In my opinion --- either incorrect timekeeping, or subterfuge.

 

[AV1611VET]

So a supposedly ominpotent and omniscient God was forced to take action? How could that have happened? How did his supposedly perfect (according to you) creation rather quickly end up so botched up that He was forced to do something about it?

Lucifer, His chief angel, rebelled, and 1/3 of the angels rebelled with him.

Of that 1/3, a small handful cohabited with the women on earth, and created a race of giants.

In the meantime, moral decay had reached its maximum peak.

It was time for someone to do something, and God stepped in.