Sister, you have it in your mind that love and grace somehow mean that God does not care about the condition of the hearts of His people. Indeed, He does love us. And the fact that our lives are still our own, with little care that He calls us as a response to that love to lose our lives in Him, for Him, through Him, has been totally lost on this generation.
If you would be so kind, simply read this next few verses. It was written to God's church.... the church He died for.
"14 Write to Laodicea, to the Angel of the church. Gods Yes, the Faithful and Accurate Witness, the First of Gods creation, says:
15-17 I know you inside and out, and find little to my liking. Youre not cold, youre not hotfar better to be either cold or hot! Youre stale. Youre stagnant. You make me want to vomit. You brag, Im rich, Ive got it made, I need nothing from anyone, oblivious that in fact youre a pitiful, blind beggar, threadbare and homeless.
18 Heres what I want you to do: Buy your gold from me, gold thats been through the refiners fire. Then youll be rich. Buy your clothes from me, clothes designed in Heaven. Youve gone around half-naked long enough. And buy medicine for your eyes from me so you can see, really see.
19 The people I love, I call to accountprod and correct and guide so that theyll live at their best. Up on your feet, then! About face! Run after God!
20-21 Look at me. I stand at the door. I knock. If you hear me call and open the door, Ill come right in and sit down to supper with you. Conquerors will sit alongside me at the head table, just as I, having conquered, took the place of honor at the side of my Father. Thats my gift to the conquerors!
22 Are your ears awake? Listen. Listen to the Wind Words, the Spirit blowing through the churches.
Do you hear? There is accountability with God for what He has given us. Grace requires. It is not works, it is heart RESPONSE, proving we were really repentant when we asked Him in. Do we hate our old self centered life? No, we are taught that grace makes that unneeded. It is a false grace, a twisted grace and it leaves us healed only slightly, lukewarm and content, yet without possessing godliness.
Again, instead of discussing what you feel about me personally, I would ask again, why the disparity between the power, the joy, the love, the single eyed service walking as living sacrifices in the early church and the one today. Why do you all avoid it? Someone, anyone, do you have a real Biblical explanation?
It is a simple request. Jesus promised that sin would not have dominion over us and that our shield of faith would work. Is this what you are experiencing? Is this what you hear preached? If not, explain it to me. Why do the promises not work, and why do we accept that they do not work without it even causing us to say "Why is that?" Simple. You take my holding up a mirror to show our lack as unloving. I know my motives and so does God.I want toyu to understand, typing heard words on the internet does not allow you to hear the tome of my voice, and this, you hear how you think I am sounding. The truth is, sadness and tears are my mindset, and yes, much love, as I care that satan has stolen from us.
If any can scripturally explain why the promises He has made are not expected to work, and that grace sonehow makes walking as living sacrifices no longer important or "our reasonable service", I will willingly alter what I say. But here is the truth. You cannot.
You think my words are meant to hurt. The truth is, my words are meant to make you think and examine. What God has for us .... it works! He promises to set us free indeed, not play-like, not positionally, but in reality so that we walk victorious over the world, the flesh and thr devil. But here is the deal. As long as we remain content with a religion that makes us feel assured, but does not lead us to become real overcomers, danger lurks.
No one likes to be awakened from a sound sleep being told their house is on fire. Attitudes like the ones displayed here against me are totally understandable. But what is the loving response to such attitudes. Is it to shut up and walk away, or to lay down and go back to sleep myself? How can I, if the Lord has asked me to speak, to warn, to encourage to share that the results of real grace leads us to real victory.
In love, whether or not you believe it....or me,
Gideon
Sister, I have asked for one thing from you and the others that seem to object to what I share and how I share it. Simply explain to me why the church started out with a bang, turning the known world upside down, loving one another as they loved themselves, and why over the next 1900 years, we have evolved into a split, splintered, organization that lacks the ability to say "What I have give I thee."in likewise manner perhaps you may consider this thought..
this small specific group of believers here in this small part of CF in the Spirit filled Charismatic forum maybe 60 people from many different countries involved in many different ministries, this tiny subset of believers "the church at SPC forum" that regularly get together here who in reality you only see a tiny part of their lives may not actually be the same church as the church at Laodicia.
ponder..
The tiny church here at the SPC forum may actually be closer to one of the other seven churches God addressed in the Bible in Rev? eg.. one church even got commended for what they were doing right which is pretty cool. not saying that us here at SFC forum but you never know..
Revelation 1:11
which said: Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.
I personally expect and know the promises of God work.. many here do as well. Even though I don't agree with some of the WOF teachings no one can accuse people there of not doing their utmost to believe and have faith. I don't know why you only come from the premise that we don't seek to believe God here at SPC forum! its what people seem to focus on most here - having faith and experiencing God.
There are seven messages from God to the seven churches .. you understandably feel warmly towards the one to the church at Laodicia because its the one God used with you but that doesn't automatically make it applicable to the church here at SPC forum. Maybe we here at SPC forum are closer to the church at Philedelphia or Sardis or one of the others but all we hear from you is the Laodicia message when really to me it doesn't seem like lukewarm fits Simply PUt or JimB or Tobias or Mr Happy or PRob even or many regular posters here.. lukewarm about what they believe? Nope rather fervent I would have said.
so maybe just a thought to ponder on that just because the message to the church at Laodicia fitted you and God used it to help you doesn't automatically make it the message this particular group of believers needs to hear over and over and over again. And its not that what you say is being avoided its more that its not relevant.
......................................................................
The other thing I see and I'm not saying I'm correct, but it seems like you're really frustrated with the church at large not being all you think it should be. So often as I've read you're posts its like you want to take her by the scruff of the neck and shake her til she gets how frustrated with her you are. It seems like you're really frustrated because the church failed you for 38 years and have yet to come to grips with that for yourself. I get it I do, I had much frustration myself with the church for years because of the way she had failed me too.
And so to me it seems like you're taking that frustration you have with the church at large out on the tiny church here at SFC forum by telling people here what you see as the church's problems and failings over and over again.
It really isn't going to solve anything Gideon. Its not going to fix your own frustrations with how the church has failed you and others.
We all have been failed by the church teaching us wrong things and not being perfect. People aren't perfect and will always fail us. God is the only one who is perfect and will never fail us.
You ask why there is a disparity and that seems to be the question you have yet to have answered by God for you personally because you ask it all the time.. maybe the Church isn't perfect so that God can shine through the cracks in us.. and He does that often
maybe that's the whole point.
if we were perfect we wouldn't need a Savior.
and that's not about glorifying our weaknesses and not trying to serve God, its just that we the church wont ever be perfect and i'm sorry we failed you and that you were bound for 38 years, i'm sorry that the church isn't and wasn't able to help you but railing on the church is not going to fix it.
I used to have dreams where I was in the pulpit of the church I got really badly hurt in. And boy in those sermons I gave in those dreams the church really got it given to them! lol (all in love of course ) thankfully it wasn't real!! so yeah I do wonder if you doing that here on us here at SPC forum is part of that process of working through how the church has failed you. if you need someone to hear your frustration we have been here doing that for a while now. I can understand how you don't want anyone else to go through what you did but even so sometimes in our wanting to save others from the same fate we can still unwittingly harm others without meaning to. I think the fact that you struggle to say anything good about the church is a little bit of evidence at the harm done to you and I'm sorry you've been failed so much that its difficult to see any good there.
might be wrong as I say, but when the church has failed us and badly i'm not just talking about the small stuff but badly its really difficult. and it does come out in our actions towards the church until God meets us on that.
if that is the case though, you're taking it out on the small church here at SPC forum and maybe its just something to ponder on Gid whether the tiny church here at SPC forum is really as worthy of all the 'you failed and are failing' messages we get given. we're not the actual people who failed you for 38 years.
Sister, I have asked for one thing from you and the others that seem to object to what I share and how I share it. Simply explain to me why the church started out with a bang, turning the known world upside down, loving one another as they loved themselves, and why over the next 1900 years, we have evolved into a split, splintered, organization that lacks the ability to say "What I have give I thee."
Blessings,
Gideon
red above, oh please, self afflicted!? Do you actually tell that to abused people? So, do you blame a physically ill person, and say, snap a finger to get better, quoting Rom 7 at them too? Emotional illness, is just like physical illness. Besides, stop calling the wounded people laodecians, or implying they are in sin, because they carry pain, lets try to show mercy on the hurting, because the letter kills, see 2 Cor 3. And again, WE are not all in YOUR we.....if you are in Laodecia, say I, not WE, fine, i guess you are in the we, but please, as others have asked you, stop including everyone in your WE, where you are at as you seem to imply, especially if you don't understand wounded hurting people, by telling them to repent of pain....or misusing Rom 7, which is totally about flesh, not about pain.
Thanks, have a good day, frog.
PS, again if you teach, you must be open to teaching too, and critique.
Is it strange.. or is it that what you see as a church divided and a church devoid of power to set others free is that there are some people who see that the 'word from God' that you give us here at CF is not completely accurate and when we try to tell you you think it is persecution and your walls go up automatically instead of listening and pondering that maybe you're not the only one God speaks through here. That maybe you may be able to learn from others instead of only others learning from you.
discussion is not disagreement, refinement comes from iron sharpening iron.
for example you say without caution that church is devoid of the power to set others free, to me that is a rather brave and reckless thing to say to God when God Himself is the power that resides within the church.
does that not bother you when you say that sort of thing in God's hearing?
It may have been your experience because of the church you were in that they couldn't free you and for many years you went through religious motions and gained no help from the people in the church you went to. But for others of us the church has been extremely helpful and God's power through His people has freed us.
this is why I find what you say at times blatantly anti-church and at times verging on insulting Gods work in His people. should I shout for joy when I hear you say the church is devoid of power when God Himself is the power in His people so you are saying essentially that God has no power - do you honestly think I should shout for joy about you saying that?
should I say shout for joy and say amen when you speak to me as if I am content in my sin and tell me I am Laodacia all the time when clearly myself and many other dear saints are not in that category all the time.
your words are not God's words to me even though you speak as if they are.
so I will not shout for joy and say amen to something if it is not true no matter how much you think I should. I don't agree with always telling people in every conversation I have with them that they are Laodacia, content in their sin and thumbing their noses at God. why should I shout for joy and say amen when someone else is doing that all the time?
I stopped reading your posts a while back and then I came back to read what I thought was a different topic from you but it is the same beration of the church group here at CF done in God's Name saying if we disagree we are disagreeing with God which is pure manipulation from someone who is not prepared to discuss what they are saying very often sadly. We here at CF have taken a heavy beating from you in God's Name. well after a while people get tired of being beaten with the you're not good enough stick and stop listening if there is no encouragement in the good they are doing as well.
I have had people speak to me with God's power that addressed the sin in my life personally one on one, they did not say need to say they spoke God's words and yet I knew they were by the power of God's love and grace that accompanied them.
Often if it is God's words you do not have to say so to try and add authority or impact, it will be recognized by people as such anyway.
still, sadly as you apparently are the only mouthpiece of God here and no one else has anything of value to say I'm sure these things I have said will be ignored and not pondered on. but I have said what my response is to your 'words from God' and it would be remiss of me not to voice my thoughts at this time so I have.
ah its a new day, excellent the day the Lord has made, in that I can and will rejoice
Christians often are wounded and hearts do need healing and 2 Cor 10 3-5 says we can take every thought captive and this can take time but we are not to be victims as comes accross in this thread
Sister, I have asked for one thing from you and the others that seem to object to what I share and how I share it. Simply explain to me why the church started out with a bang, turning the known world upside down, loving one another as they loved themselves, and why over the next 1900 years, we have evolved into a split, splintered, organization that lacks the ability to say "What I have give I thee."
What makes you think the first century church was so spot on??
Certainly not scripture -
They had people involved in incest, having to be put out.
They had people lying to God and dropping dead in the service.
They had people being so greedy that some didn't get fed.
They had church leadership openly disputing one another.
Paul got so mad, he abandoned John Mark in the middle of a missions trip.
Want me to go on?
Gid - it seems that you are under some pie in the sky illusion that the people in the first century church walked perfectly, that there wasn't any of the same issues we have today.
Simply Put - that is not even remotely correct.
The seven letters were written to the first century churches, they were far from perfect.
what he said ^
To you and Simply Put, I would like to remind you of one thing. By trying to lower the standard set by God in the early church to somehow bring them down to "our" level is simply proving my point indeed.
Do I deny that these listed situations actually occurred? Of course not, and I have already acknowledged their existence in one of my answers. BUT, and this is huge, these are isolated cases that were singled out in scripture. They were not the norm at all.
Blessings,
Gideon
Gideon - c'mon really? I'm not lowering the early church - I'm also not elevating it to something Scripture does not say it was.
Well said GIDS....bang on form - it is a short life - let us be those of revelation 2v17. let us be different by God's grace - lets not give the world an excuse to poke fun at us - but instead bring conviction wherever we go !
Or in gids case condemnation... its nearly conviction but what he says misses the boat because he misses that the 'true church' is not the 'organised church'. He treats those with unregenerate hearts the same as those with regenerate hearts - there is no distinction in what he says to acknowledge the work of God that is already going on in and through Gods true church.
Or in gids case condemnation... its nearly conviction but what he says misses the boat because he misses that the 'true church' is not the 'organised church'. He treats those with unregenerate hearts the same as those with regenerate hearts - there is no distinction in what he says to acknowledge the work of God that is already going on in and through Gods true church.