in likewise manner perhaps you may consider this thought..
this small specific group of believers here in this small part of CF in the Spirit filled Charismatic forum maybe 60 people from many different countries involved in many different ministries, this tiny subset of believers "the church at SPC forum" that regularly get together here who in reality you only see a tiny part of their lives may not actually be the same church as the church at Laodicia.
ponder..
The tiny church here at the SPC forum may actually be closer to one of the other seven churches God addressed in the Bible in Rev? eg.. one church even got commended for what they were doing right which is pretty cool. not saying that us here at SFC forum but you never know..
Revelation 1:11
which said: Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.
I personally expect and know the promises of God work.. many here do as well. Even though I don't agree with some of the WOF teachings no one can accuse people there of not doing their utmost to believe and have faith. I don't know why you only come from the premise that we don't seek to believe God here at SPC forum! its what people seem to focus on most here - having faith and experiencing God.
There are seven messages from God to the seven churches .. you understandably feel warmly towards the one to the church at Laodicia because its the one God used with you but that doesn't automatically make it applicable to the church here at SPC forum. Maybe we here at SPC forum are closer to the church at Philedelphia or Sardis or one of the others but all we hear from you is the Laodicia message when really to me it doesn't seem like lukewarm fits Simply PUt or JimB or Tobias or Mr Happy or PRob even or many regular posters here.. lukewarm about what they believe? Nope rather fervent I would have said.
so maybe just a thought to ponder on that just because the message to the church at Laodicia fitted you and God used it to help you doesn't automatically make it the message this particular group of believers needs to hear over and over and over again. And its not that what you say is being avoided its more that its not relevant.
......................................................................
The other thing I see and I'm not saying I'm correct, but it seems like you're really frustrated with the church at large not being all you think it should be. So often as I've read you're posts its like you want to take her by the scruff of the neck and shake her til she gets how frustrated with her you are. It seems like you're really frustrated because the church failed you for 38 years and have yet to come to grips with that for yourself. I get it I do, I had much frustration myself with the church for years because of the way she had failed me too.
And so to me it seems like you're taking that frustration you have with the church at large out on the tiny church here at SFC forum by telling people here what you see as the church's problems and failings over and over again.
It really isn't going to solve anything Gideon. Its not going to fix your own frustrations with how the church has failed you and others.
We all have been failed by the church teaching us wrong things and not being perfect. People aren't perfect and will always fail us. God is the only one who is perfect and will never fail us.
You ask why there is a disparity and that seems to be the question you have yet to have answered by God for you personally because you ask it all the time.. maybe the Church isn't perfect so that God can shine through the cracks in us.. and He does that often
maybe that's the whole point.
if we were perfect we wouldn't need a Savior.
and that's not about glorifying our weaknesses and not trying to serve God, its just that we the church wont ever be perfect and i'm sorry we failed you and that you were bound for 38 years, i'm sorry that the church isn't and wasn't able to help you but railing on the church is not going to fix it.
I used to have dreams where I was in the pulpit of the church I got really badly hurt in. And boy in those sermons I gave in those dreams the church really got it given to them! lol
(all in love of course ) thankfully it wasn't real!! so yeah I do wonder if you doing that here on us here at SPC forum is part of that process of working through how the church has failed you. if you need someone to hear your frustration we have been here doing that for a while now. I can understand how you don't want anyone else to go through what you did but even so sometimes in our wanting to save others from the same fate we can still unwittingly harm others without meaning to. I think the fact that you struggle to say anything good about the church is a little bit of evidence at the harm done to you and I'm sorry you've been failed so much that its difficult to see any good there.might be wrong as I say, but when the church has failed us and badly i'm not just talking about the small stuff but badly its really difficult. and it does come out in our actions towards the church until God meets us on that.
if that is the case though, you're taking it out on the small church here at SPC forum and maybe its just something to ponder on Gid whether the tiny church here at SPC forum is really as worthy of all the 'you failed and are failing' messages we get given. we're not the actual people who failed you for 38 years.
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gideons300
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Sister, I have asked for one thing from you and the others that seem to object to what I share and how I share it. Simply explain to me why the church started out with a bang, turning the known world upside down, loving one another as they loved themselves, and why over the next 1900 years, we have evolved into a split, splintered, organization that lacks the ability to say "What I have give I thee."in likewise manner perhaps you may consider this thought..
this small specific group of believers here in this small part of CF in the Spirit filled Charismatic forum maybe 60 people from many different countries involved in many different ministries, this tiny subset of believers "the church at SPC forum" that regularly get together here who in reality you only see a tiny part of their lives may not actually be the same church as the church at Laodicia.
ponder..
The tiny church here at the SPC forum may actually be closer to one of the other seven churches God addressed in the Bible in Rev? eg.. one church even got commended for what they were doing right which is pretty cool. not saying that us here at SFC forum but you never know..
Revelation 1:11
which said: Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.
I personally expect and know the promises of God work.. many here do as well. Even though I don't agree with some of the WOF teachings no one can accuse people there of not doing their utmost to believe and have faith. I don't know why you only come from the premise that we don't seek to believe God here at SPC forum! its what people seem to focus on most here - having faith and experiencing God.
There are seven messages from God to the seven churches .. you understandably feel warmly towards the one to the church at Laodicia because its the one God used with you but that doesn't automatically make it applicable to the church here at SPC forum. Maybe we here at SPC forum are closer to the church at Philedelphia or Sardis or one of the others but all we hear from you is the Laodicia message when really to me it doesn't seem like lukewarm fits Simply PUt or JimB or Tobias or Mr Happy or PRob even or many regular posters here.. lukewarm about what they believe? Nope rather fervent I would have said.
so maybe just a thought to ponder on that just because the message to the church at Laodicia fitted you and God used it to help you doesn't automatically make it the message this particular group of believers needs to hear over and over and over again. And its not that what you say is being avoided its more that its not relevant.
......................................................................
The other thing I see and I'm not saying I'm correct, but it seems like you're really frustrated with the church at large not being all you think it should be. So often as I've read you're posts its like you want to take her by the scruff of the neck and shake her til she gets how frustrated with her you are. It seems like you're really frustrated because the church failed you for 38 years and have yet to come to grips with that for yourself. I get it I do, I had much frustration myself with the church for years because of the way she had failed me too.
And so to me it seems like you're taking that frustration you have with the church at large out on the tiny church here at SFC forum by telling people here what you see as the church's problems and failings over and over again.
It really isn't going to solve anything Gideon. Its not going to fix your own frustrations with how the church has failed you and others.
We all have been failed by the church teaching us wrong things and not being perfect. People aren't perfect and will always fail us. God is the only one who is perfect and will never fail us.
You ask why there is a disparity and that seems to be the question you have yet to have answered by God for you personally because you ask it all the time.. maybe the Church isn't perfect so that God can shine through the cracks in us.. and He does that often
maybe that's the whole point.
if we were perfect we wouldn't need a Savior.
and that's not about glorifying our weaknesses and not trying to serve God, its just that we the church wont ever be perfect and i'm sorry we failed you and that you were bound for 38 years, i'm sorry that the church isn't and wasn't able to help you but railing on the church is not going to fix it.
I used to have dreams where I was in the pulpit of the church I got really badly hurt in. And boy in those sermons I gave in those dreams the church really got it given to them! lol
might be wrong as I say, but when the church has failed us and badly i'm not just talking about the small stuff but badly its really difficult. and it does come out in our actions towards the church until God meets us on that.
if that is the case though, you're taking it out on the small church here at SPC forum and maybe its just something to ponder on Gid whether the tiny church here at SPC forum is really as worthy of all the 'you failed and are failing' messages we get given. we're not the actual people who failed you for 38 years.
Instead I get all sorts of reasons why I should not share what I do. Now if there was no lack in our gospel today, and the church was thriving, holy, pure, single-eyed, loving not the world, I would be dead wrong in sharing what I share. But the truth is, none here can explain away what we have become.
I am not saying there are not good people here. I am saying that for the most part we have a gospel that heals only slightly, not fully as the Word clearly promises. Again, the word says that our shield of faith if held up, would defeat all the attacks of the enemy. If we do not see that in our lives, why? I would really appreciate if you could, to share with me why we do not walk in what they walked in. They were human, just as we are, so that is not the reason.
In all my time here, not one person has ever come to me with a reason why we are not walking as they walked or even teaching it. Living sacrifices.....living that way is our reasonable service. It is also a promise to us, for God said He would cause us to walk obediently in the new covenant, His words, not mine. And He did with the early saints.....why not us?
The answer is..... there is more... much more.... for us from our God, but until we admit our lack and hunger for it, and give Him no rest day and night until we are planted on the highway of holiness, we will continue to be healed only slightly and the world will continue to not want what we have to offer.
Blessings,
Gideon
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What makes you think the first century church was so spot on??
Certainly not scripture -
They had people involved in incest, having to be put out.
They had people lying to God and dropping dead in the service.
They had people being so greedy that some didn't get fed.
They had church leadership openly disputing one another.
Paul got so mad, he abandoned John Mark in the middle of a missions trip.
Want me to go on?
Gid - it seems that you are under some pie in the sky illusion that the people in the first century church walked perfectly, that there wasn't any of the same issues we have today.
Simply Put - that is not even remotely correct.
The seven letters were written to the first century churches, they were far from perfect.
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Tenebrae
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red above, oh please, self afflicted!? Do you actually tell that to abused people?So, do you blame a physically ill person, and say, snap a finger to get better, quoting Rom 7 at them too? Emotional illness, is just like physical illness. Besides, stop calling the wounded people laodecians, or implying they are in sin, because they carry pain, lets try to show mercy on the hurting, because the letter kills, see 2 Cor 3. And again, WE are not all in YOUR we.....if you are in Laodecia, say I, not WE, fine, i guess you are in the we, but please, as others have asked you, stop including everyone in your WE, where you are at as you seem to imply, especially if you don't understand wounded hurting people, by telling them to repent of pain....or misusing Rom 7, which is totally about flesh, not about pain.
Thanks, have a good day, frog.
PS, again if you teach, you must be open to teaching too, and critique.
Reposting for posterity
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Tenebrae
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Is it strange.. or is it that what you see as a church divided and a church devoid of power to set others free is that there are some people who see that the 'word from God' that you give us here at CF is not completely accurate and when we try to tell you you think it is persecution and your walls go up automatically instead of listening and pondering that maybe you're not the only one God speaks through here. That maybe you may be able to learn from others instead of only others learning from you.
discussion is not disagreement, refinement comes from iron sharpening iron.
for example you say without caution that church is devoid of the power to set others free, to me that is a rather brave and reckless thing to say to God when God Himself is the power that resides within the church.
does that not bother you when you say that sort of thing in God's hearing?
It may have been your experience because of the church you were in that they couldn't free you and for many years you went through religious motions and gained no help from the people in the church you went to. But for others of us the church has been extremely helpful and God's power through His people has freed us.
this is why I find what you say at times blatantly anti-church and at times verging on insulting Gods work in His people. should I shout for joy when I hear you say the church is devoid of power when God Himself is the power in His people so you are saying essentially that God has no power - do you honestly think I should shout for joy about you saying that?
should I say shout for joy and say amen when you speak to me as if I am content in my sin and tell me I am Laodacia all the time when clearly myself and many other dear saints are not in that category all the time.
your words are not God's words to me even though you speak as if they are.
so I will not shout for joy and say amen to something if it is not true no matter how much you think I should. I don't agree with always telling people in every conversation I have with them that they are Laodacia, content in their sin and thumbing their noses at God. why should I shout for joy and say amen when someone else is doing that all the time?
I stopped reading your posts a while back and then I came back to read what I thought was a different topic from you but it is the same beration of the church group here at CF done in God's Name saying if we disagree we are disagreeing with God which is pure manipulation from someone who is not prepared to discuss what they are saying very often sadly. We here at CF have taken a heavy beating from you in God's Name. well after a while people get tired of being beaten with the you're not good enough stick and stop listening if there is no encouragement in the good they are doing as well.
I have had people speak to me with God's power that addressed the sin in my life personally one on one, they did not say need to say they spoke God's words and yet I knew they were by the power of God's love and grace that accompanied them.
Often if it is God's words you do not have to say so to try and add authority or impact, it will be recognized by people as such anyway.
still, sadly as you apparently are the only mouthpiece of God here and no one else has anything of value to say I'm sure these things I have said will be ignored and not pondered on. but I have said what my response is to your 'words from God' and it would be remiss of me not to voice my thoughts at this time so I have.
ah its a new day, excellent
Bravo, and reposting for for posterity
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Christians often are wounded and hearts do need healing and 2 Cor 10 3-5 says we can take every thought captive and this can take time but we are not to be victims as comes accross in this thread
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Frogster
Galatians is the best!
But Paul was talking about taking THEIR thoughts and false teachings captive, the false apostles for the most part. Why would Paul come to Corinth to take down his own argument?
Look how the obedient/obey word is defined in verse 6, it was theirs (yours), not Pauls, he was not teaching them to sit aroud over internalizing, judging, and examing every thought the pops into mind.
2 Cor 10:5 We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ, 6 being ready to punish every disobedience, when your obedience is complete.
Earlier he said he was coming to meet those who accused him of walking in the flesh, a reference to chapter 1, the yes yes, no no verse, where they said he walked in the flesh, a reference to the false aopostles of whom Paul was coming to take on, who brought a false gospel to the corinthians in chapter 11. They were attacking Paul, he was coming to take down their thoughs and teachings. The "some" of verse 2 below.
2 Cor 10:2 I beg of you that when I am present I may not have to show boldness with such confidence as I count on showing against some who suspect us of walking according to the flesh
Thanks, frog.
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gideons300
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To you and Simply Put, I would like to remind you of one thing. By trying to lower the standard set by God in the early church to somehow bring them down to "our" level is simply proving my point indeed.
Do I deny that these listed situations actually occurred? Of course not, and I have already acknowledged their existence in one of my answers. BUT, and this is huge, these are isolated cases that were singled out in scripture. They were not the norm at all.
For instance, SP, you mentioned Ananias and Saphira lying and being slain in a church service. Did it happen? Absolutely! Now, let's take that same example and apply it to the church today. If that same standard was applied today, effective this next Sunday morning, how many people do you think would avoid church like the plague? Heck, come on now, we would be burying bodies until Jesus arrives. It happened ONCE and great fear came upon them all. Do you suspect they were walking in a purity we cannot even fathom? The very idea that we should be afraid to not be holy is thought of as anti-Christian! God is too loving to do that, right? Well, let's ask Ananias and Saphira for their opinion.
Here is what you forget. The "standard" of the early church was holiness unto the Lord. Their "reasonable service" was walking out their lives here on earth as sojourners and living sacrifices. Were there exceptions? Yes, a few noted in scripture and they were dealt with in whatever manner was needed to keep the church pure. And guess what? This was not a "work" they had to do. Faith was the vehicle that they were urged to use to walk that way. They believed they were dead to sin and alive unto God. Period.
Now, can you with a straight face tell me that that is the way we are walking and being taught today? Really? Please do not insult the readers by trying to tell me the church in the west is taught that walking as living sacrifices is reasonable. Hard to think it is reasonable when we are not even taught that it is possible.
Now, let's look at what they DID do. They turned the entire known world upside down in ONE generation. They accomplished this without printing presses, four Bibles per person, Christian bookstores, and with no Christian radio stations or television evangelists. In fact, They had little if any dependence on money to spread the gospel at all. They had no seminaries, no Strong's copncordances, commentaries or Greek theologians. Most were uneducated, and STILL, the world was no match for their zeal and love.
You want to know how they did it? The LIVED it, and were full of joy because of the Lord abiding in their hearts by faith as they witnessed to the world that God could make ANYONE an overcomer, victorious over their rebellious hearts. The lost saw the difference in their eyes, and exclaimed:
"Behold how they love one another!"
Heard that one lately? Yeah, me neither. The saints in the early church walked just as they were led to live, as real honest-to-God living sacrifices and they ran their race as if there was only one prize and they were determined to win it. Race?? You mean we have to actually do something past say a prayer? Yes. We have to apprehend that for which we were apprehended. And as Paul said.... "by ANY means". It ia BIG deal.
Why did the world take note or such men? Because God was sanctified IN THEM before the very eyes of the lost. The lost saw Jesus in them. The church was not full of weak, overcome people but overcomers. There were few if any hypocrites saying one thing on Sundays and living just like the world the rest of the week.
Sin really was a defeated foe in their lives, and by their very being who they really were, new creatures....LIGHT....., they exposed the deeds of the world as darkness. Two results happened. Those in the world who loved the light, came to it and joined them and put on their own new nature, hating their flesh, the old rebel that once was them. Those who loved to reign over their own lives? They HATED and persecuted the church, for the goodness of those in the early church testified that the deeds of those in the world we EVIL.
So, what happened? Why did the early church become what it is now, a shell of what it once was? Paul let us know. God told him that after his death, grievous wolves were going to infiltrate the church, religion was going to replace righteousness and tares and wheat would intermix to such an extent that it would be hard if not impossible to tell the difference between the two. Nineteen hundred years later, we are still a mess, and cannot see how far we have strayed from what God has promised us. Many right now do not even want to see and get offended if a mirror is held up.
Jesus said that if they persecuted Him they would also persecute us. Well, how are we doing here in the west? Seen any fed to lions lately? The world is not persecuting us for our holy lives. They are disdaining us for our saying we believe every word of the Bible when our lives are witnesses against us. I do thank God for the few exceptions to all I say, and I also thank God for the increasing group of believers who are broken and saying:
"That is me! I am not sold out. I still flirt with sins, again and again. But I want to be different. I want to be free. Help me Lord! Show me HOW to walk pleasing to you above all in my life!"
I apologize for getting carried away here, but it is almost laughable if it were not so sad that any reasonable man or woman who calls themselves a believer would try to defend what we have done with the gospel, both in our own lives and in the lives of the lost who desperately need what we say we have. Healed only slightly..... with no REAL peace and joy that comes from victory. Well did Jeremiah write of us that we draw near Him with our mouths but our hearts are otherwise occupied with our real treasure.....US.
Can anyone here....anyone.... tell me the last time they heard a preacher preach that the standard of our lives ought to be walking as living sacrices? Why is this? Because we do not believe it possible to truly defeat self and sin. Wake up call. It is. But until we WANT it, and view ourselves as wretched men and women without it, we will continue to blaspheme His Holy name wherever we go and the world will continue to mock us and avoid us like the plague.
I live for the day that men in the world can say as God told us would indeed happen:
"Look! That which has bore only thorns and briars has been turned back into something like the garden of Eden."
That day IS coming. Now, guys, it is our choice to either try to defend what we have as something God is well pleased despite what He has promised us that we are ignoring, or we can admit that we need an outpouring of the Spirit in both us and our churches unprecendented in the history of mankind. Gusee what? it IS coming. The only question is "Will we be a part of it?"
God has promised to cause us to walk in full 100% obedience and to become victorious over the world the flesh and the devil. But until we come into agreement with Him, and in tears tell Him we want that but we simply do knot know how, we will continue to run laps in Sinai, mistaking movement for progress.
Blessings,
Gideon
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So it was the ISOLATED cases that caused the Holy Spirit to write:
John, to the seven churches which are in Asia:
Note: First Century churches - in Asia
Rev 2:12 “And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write,
‘These things says He who has the sharp two-edged sword: 13 “I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is. And you hold fast to My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days in which Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. 14 But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality. 15 Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. 16 Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.
‘These things says He who has the sharp two-edged sword: 13 “I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is. And you hold fast to My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days in which Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. 14 But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality. 15 Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. 16 Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.
And you consider this the result of 'isolated cases?
Rev 2:18 “And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write,
‘These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass: 19 “I know your works, love, service, faith, and your patience; and as for your works, the last are more than the first. 20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent.22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. 23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.
And you consider that the result of isolated cases??
Rev 3:“And to the angel of the church in Sardis write,
‘These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. 4 You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
‘These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. 4 You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
Did you catch that? You have a FEW, not a lot, not most - a few
and you think this is the result of isolated cases?
Need I go on - the Laodiceans were the FIRST CENTURY church. What did the Holy Spirit say to them?
I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. 17 Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked— 18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent
and you still stand behind your statement that they were just a few isolated incidents? Scripture is the only thing huge here because it flies in the face of your statements.
Gideon - c'mon really? I'm not lowering the early church - I'm also not elevating it to something Scripture does not say it was.
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gideons300
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Let's dig in a bit here, ok? John was the only one of the original twelve apostles to not meet a violent death. He was the youngest of the apostles and after being boiled in oil, he was exiled to the isle of Patmos, where he lived out his latter years. The church had already spread the gospel to those places, and filled the known world with the love of God..... in ONE generation. It had already begun to lose its purity that it had when it was first established and the grievous wolves that Paul had been forewarned about had already entered into the flock. The church was now on the decline when Revelations was written.
When some read the criticisms listed in the letters to the seven churches, they see it as reasons why it is "ok" to continue on the path we as the church are presently on. They even reason:
"Well, heck, if they could not be perfect, neither should we expect the church to walk in holiness today, and for that matter, neither should I personally think walking in real holiness is necessary on my walk. I have grace so why sweat it?."
But when I read the letters, I see a God who is trying to awaken His sleeping people to live what they say they believe. I see a list of reasons why we need to fall on our knees and repent, Do we so easily overlook what God spoke:
"There are some there who have not defiled their garments and they shall walk with me in white, for they are worthy."
"WHATT??? Hey, I thought EVERYONE got in?? You mean we actually have to walk our Christianity out and BE holy?" Boy, that teaching is going over like a lead balloon in most of today's churches. Blanket forgiveness with no real repentance or desire for a different heart does not mix well with 'walking worthy of the Lord'.
No, sadly, we are commonly taught that since real holiness and victory over sin is impossible, "Hey, don't sweat it, because that is what grace is for!" Right? We now have a modern church that in most cases is turning grace into lasciviousness....or license to sin. Can you honestly tell me that the heart of most is still sensitive to sin, that repentance follows a fall to where they cry out like Paul did in Romans 7....
"O wretched man that I am, who will deliver me?"
No, brother, real grace, the grace we have been blinded to, teaches us that:
"...denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we are to live soberly, righteously andf justly in this presnet age."
Sadly, we are content in our gospel where sin can be winked at and used as a covering for our sins, rather than as a cure for them. We have not been taught that God can and will keep us from falling, Instead, we have replaced that lost truth with blanket forgiveness, past present and future, regardless of the condition of our hearts. But it is indeed the condition of our hearts that is vital to the process of being changed into the image of the Lord. We must WANT freedom. We must HUNGER for holy natures if we are ever to possess them.
Hungry, broken repentant hearts get forgiven, healed, filled. Those that are relying on a one time prayer and blanket forgiveness, a hall pass for sin without an expiration date, are being led down a path filled with rose petals and cute rabbits, but that path will lead to destruction.
God has spoken, It would do us good to listen and let His words bring us to our knees to find out the secret of how to accomplish such high standards:
"Without holiness, no man shall see the Lord."
"Let all who name the name of the Lord depart from iniquity."
"Blessed are those who hunger for righteousness, for they shall be filled."
"Depart from me, all tew whgo work iniquity."
"Looking diligently, lest any man fail of the grace of God."
Is Paul saying that the grace of God can fail? Never, but what he IS saying is that we can fail it. Whoa.
So if this is the actual standard that we have lost, and that walking out our lives as living sacrifices is indeed what God expects from us, how do we avoid falling into intense legalism, as Froggy suggests I am in? How can we walk this way, for it truly seems impossible. In fact, it IS impossible, as the Pharisees found out, for they were trying to make their old nature act holy, and impress God with their piety. How do we get from where we are now, defeated by sin, still ruled by our lower nature, to the other side, where we can actually BE holy? A giant chasm separates us. There is an answer, and one that cannot fail. Read on.
So where does that leave us? Once we see that God demands holy hearts, for He has said "Be ye holy, for I am holy", it leaves us exactly where it was always meant to leave us... broken and desperate in the prison of Romans 7, captive to sin, knowing our failure and the danger it brings, hating our own lives, our SELF, our flesh that cannot walk as God asks us, cannot be holy. It leaves us ready to finally graduate from the lesson the schoolmaster has finally taught us. And what is the lesson? That we need new natures, new hearts that can be holy, that can hate sin, that can overcome, if we are to ever walk fully pleasing to God. It leaves us crying out for the deliverer to come to us and deliver us, just like we cried out for Him to come to us to forgive us and save us from the penalty of our sins. It leaves us now, having resisted unto blood striving against sin that is firmly rooted in our old man, seeing the only thing that can save us from US is...we have to receive new natures, natures that CAN obey! As Paul said:
"Nothing profits but a new creature."
The flesh wil not go willingly into the night. It LIKES being in charge, and it LIKES eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, where it can decide what is right and what is wrong. But if we remain in our lower nature, where sin can still get at us, we run the danger of having our hearts hardened. We lose the opportunity to walk as overcomers in this life. We are robbed of abiding....all the time... in our Lord, always pleasing Him. We cannot stay here if we are to find safety in these last days.
I pray, SP that you reconsider what you are defending. It is not leading people to FREE INDEED. It leads to spiritual sleep, and acceptancce of sin and self still remaining our bedfellows. In these last days, God is awakening us all and telling us the fulll good news of who we are in Him. He is asking us to not work, but to BELIEVE and in that faith to resist the devil, holding up our shields of faith that we are no longer in the flesh, and owe it nothing. He is encouraging us to take a radical leap of faith and to put on the new nature that can overcome, can defeat all sin, can walk holy and blameless before Him in love.
It is time. Awakwening can be tough, for it requires searching of hearts and real repentance. But I promise any here who are ready for freedom, who cannot stand another minute of failing their Lord and walking in the old fleshly rebellious nature, that they are in no way too weak or bad or sin dominated to fail finding the rest that remains for the people of God. In fact, the awareness of those things is the best qualifier for obtaining the life God has for us! LOL. It is BECAUSE we are unable to walk that way that we need a miracle. God has one for us.
It is time we light our lamps and stand against the lies of the enemy, lies we have all bought into. We CAN walk as overcomers, victorious over the world, the flesh and the devil. We simply have to change clothes, put off our old man by faith, put on pir new man, the robes of righteousness He offers us, the same ones He offered the Laodecians so that the shame of their nakedness would not appear. Then? Let us resist the devil, steadfast in that faith, who will try to convince us we really are not new at all, but the same old sinners we always have been. Nope, not this time, satan. Not this time.
A new day is dawning on the bride. She is being shown how to get the spots and wrinkles out. Glory to God. Our bridegroom is coming for us. What is about to happen will take our breath away.
Blessings,
Gideon
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Well said GIDS....bang on form - it is a short life - let us be those of revelation 2v17. let us be different by God's grace - lets not give the world an excuse to poke fun at us - but instead bring conviction wherever we go !
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Or in gids case condemnation... its nearly conviction but what he says misses the boat because he misses that the 'true church' is not the 'organised church'. He treats those with unregenerate hearts the same as those with regenerate hearts - there is no distinction in what he says to acknowledge the work of God that is already going on in and through Gods true church.
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Frogster
Galatians is the best!
one could also say, when the unsaved see a real person there, who is human, that can do alot too, not seeing a sterile person, a legalistic sin centered person, talking about sin all day. believe me, they for the most part know they are in sin.
So if they meet the hardliner saint, who is sitting around counting bad thoughts all day, which is an unvictorious existence, while he is yelling..REPENT!
that is not going to move anyone, but when others see weakness not masked, they can relate, instead of seeing a fake holiness called behaviorism.
They say, gee, you're a Christian, I thought you had to be this sterile boring, dull, fearful, legalisitic person? The weak guy answers, nope! I am what I am, by the grace of Christ.
So if they meet the hardliner saint, who is sitting around counting bad thoughts all day, which is an unvictorious existence, while he is yelling..REPENT!
that is not going to move anyone, but when others see weakness not masked, they can relate, instead of seeing a fake holiness called behaviorism.
They say, gee, you're a Christian, I thought you had to be this sterile boring, dull, fearful, legalisitic person? The weak guy answers, nope! I am what I am, by the grace of Christ.
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Well said FoundInGrace - bang on - there are millions upon millions of Christians living Holy and separated lives all around us. We have to close a blind eye and a deaf ear to the current work of the Holy Spirit in the world today to line up with this incessant unscriptural banter.
Are there some not making the mark - certainly
But there are countless millions who are.
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