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Taking a philosophy class - confused about evolution

FaithfulServant

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Hi, I posted this in the creation vs. evolution forum but then I noticed this one and thought it might be more suited here...I am taking a university level Philosophy class and we are going over arguments for and against God. Okay, here are my questions...:help:

1. My teacher told us that the definition of Evolution is that every living thing has the same genetic code for building amino acids, therefore there is a common cause. Is this the right definition? She says that everyone agrees on evolution, and tis impossible to deny it, but that what people disagree on is natural selection. Is this true?

2. How is it possible to believe in Evolution and God?

3. How is it possible to believe in Evolution, Natural Selection and God?

4.Oh, and is it possible to still believe that the world was really created in 7 days? Is it possible to have vestigial organs and mutations and still have creation?



I looked up evolution online and it doesn't sound like the same definition she gave us in class, I walked up to her before class started and quietly (no one heard me) told her this, and she freaked out and verbally attacked me in front of everyone. She didn't like me saying that her definition might be different form the ones I find from authoritative sources.

I'd appreciate anyone and everyone responding to this thread. I am just trying to understand things, and incorporate all of this into my beliefs somehow?



Please don't get all deep philosophically on me, this is a beginning Philosophy class, and I'd like to be able to understand your answers! ;)



Thank you so much:angel: ,

Steffani


 

meshnaster

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evolution is simply the changing of a species over time.

evolution does exist, because not all creatures alive today are the same as their ancestors hundreds of years ago. evolution can occur because of interspecial breeding, birth defects, or other things. the genes of species change whenever those things happen, and some genes can be bred out of species so that traits change. that is evolution.

the "theory of evolution" as pertaining to creation does not really start with evolution at all. it is the belief that life came from non-life by no means other than nature. that theory then goes to say that all creatures evolved from the same organism and some changed in one way, while others changed in another way.

the thing about that theory is that there is practically no evidence to support it. some scientists speculate, and that's the entire theory. they might tell you some things that they claim prove their theory, but those things could just as well prove that beavers make pudding during springtime.
 
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the thing about that theory is that there is practically no evidence to support it. some scientists speculate, and that's the entire theory. they might tell you some things that they claim prove their theory, but those things could just as well prove that beavers make pudding during springtime.
Why don't you hop on over to the c/e forum and tell us about our gullibility...
 
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JAL

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Let’s assume for the moment that the universe is indeed old (13 billion years according to many scientists) and the earth is likewise old (4 billion years) and that modern man has been around for a long while (say 50,000 years, with the dinosaurs long dead before Adam hit the scene). Is there a way to reconcile these figures with a literal reading of Genesis? Certainly. In the Bible, the term “father” means “any ancestor.” For example Abraham is our father. As a result, the biblical genealogies are totally ambiguous as to how many generations existed between Adam and Christ. Most Bible scholars maintain that it was Hebrew writing style to omit generations in the tally. (Had God deviated from this style, all the textual critics would only deny the Bible’s authenticity even more). This takes care of the alleged 50,000 years worth of mankind.

Genesis tells us the origin of what is visible – visible to ancient man who lacked telescopes to see distant galaxies. It doesn’t have much to say about the universe as a whole. Perhaps the whole universe is mentioned in verse 1, “In the beginning God made the heaven and the earth.” Several days later He made “the stars” which speaks not of the whole universe but of those stars visible to ancient man, presumably our own galaxy alone. Thus our galaxy was not the first of all galaxies.

Were the six days 24-hour periods? The absence of a natural sun until the fourth of these six days allows for any possible length of daylight. It need not be 24-hour periods. God designated six days only to establish the paradigm/calendar of working six consecutive daylights and then resting on the seventh daylight (the Sabbath). Now since there was no sun at the outset, what is the meaning of the phrase repeated for each of the six days, “And there was evening, and the morning, the [next] day”? Evening/darkness simply contrasts with morning/day where day is the shining of a sun into a locale. Christ’s face as Sun illuminated our entire galaxy:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep…And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.[This is Christ's face shining into the galax - see 2Cor 4:4-6]. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day (Gen 1:2-5).



This was the first galactic day of six. These six galactic days filled the entire galaxy with Christ’s light and thus have absolutely nothing to do with the earth’s local 24-hour daylights furnished by the sun newly created on the fourth galactic day (1:16-19). Each time that Christ suspended the shining of His face, and He did it gradually to create an evening-effect, a galactic night ensued. Thus in each case we have evening, and then morning, the next day (the next galactic day). And since it was His prerogative to decide when to shine, there is no telling how long these galactic days were. The first one could have been a billion years for all we know, the second one a million years – all was entirely up to Him. After all, these six days were totally artificial fabrications serving no useful purpose other than to set up a paradigm/calendar of working six days followed by resting on the seventh day. As a result of this flexible timescale, Genesis cannot be construed as contradicting the age of the earth or the age of universe. (Presumably Christ made His galactic Light invisible to the earth’s creatures once the sun was in place on the fourth galactic day). Christ's Light also nourished the plants until our created sun was in place.

Now regarding the fossil record. Evolutionists claim that all the genetic evidence points to a common ancestor from which all species evolved. This is based largely on the commonalities among fossilized genetic materials. This may be true but does not disprove biblical creation because God could have formed all the main species from a single hand-held cluster of uniform genetic material (and in this sense from a single common “ancestor”). He did this forming not all at once but over the course of six galactic days, fashinoning Adam and Eve on the sixth day. Of course evolution/adaptation may have ensued after biblical creation assuming God programmed the DNA to adapt/evolve automatically to dangerous environments. Thus we are not faced with a mutually exclusive choice, “either creation or evolution.” A certain measure of both is possibly more realistic.

Why would God take so long for creation? One possible reason, among many, is that animals have free will, and free will is sometimes unpredictable even by God, as many theologians today admit (these theologians are called "open theists"). Hence God may have taken time to tweak/fine-tune the natural order to make sure that animal behavior would be in accordance with His plans for Adam and Eve. This tweaking of the natural order would help to explain anomalies such as vestigial organs. (Adam was the first "man" in the biblical sense, but there may have been many man-like species preceding him).
I am not totally convinced of evolution, but I see enough evidence to support it to warrant accepting it as a possibility. But I still take Genesis literally even though a huge percentage of Christians have migrated to a non-literal reading. Even if evolution can be shown, there is no way to prove that God’s hand isn’t behind it, manipulating the DNA invisibly. Here's one problem with evolution. If it takes a thousand microevolutions to transform an ape into a man, there should be a thousand “missing links” in the fossil record – and this would be true for each evolved species! The fossil record shows the opposite, namely many species but comparitively few candidates for transitional forms.

What now of the order of the fossil record? One will have difficulty using a global flood to account for the fossil record. There is simply too much scientific, geological, and archaeological evidence against it. Hugh Ross’ website links to an article that argues for a local flood based on the literal reading of the Hebrew texts involving Noah. Such a small flood would have no serious impact on the geologic column and thus cannot be significantly challenged by scientists. Moses laid out in Genesis an order of creation, starting with fruit-bearing plants, that seems compatible with the fossil record. Some evolutionists debate whether birds arrived early or late. If birds arrived late, the fossil evidence could be a challenge to Moses' account. If birds arrived early, Moses' account seems acceptable.
 
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Project2501

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meshnaster said:
the "theory of evolution" as pertaining to creation does not really start with evolution at all. it is the belief that life came from non-life by no means other than nature.
no it isn't
that theory then goes to say that all creatures evolved from the same organism
no it doesn't
and some changed in one way, while others changed in another way.
well that is what you said earlier.
the thing about that theory is that there is practically no evidence to support it.
because your definition is wrong.
some scientists speculate, and that's the entire theory.
the actual theory of evolution has significant evidence, and is not described in the way you have.
they might tell you some things that they claim prove their theory, but those things could just as well prove that beavers make pudding during springtime.
meaningless.
 
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Project2501

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Johnnz said:
Have you come across Philip Johnstons books? He is a Christian law professor, who looks at the logical and philosophical issues involved in evolution.

John
NZ
but does he actually know about evolution? It is all well and good a law professor writing a book, but would you accept advice from a plumber about where to invest your shares? or would you talk to an investment banker?
 
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trunks2k

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FaithfulServant said:
1. My teacher told us that the definition of Evolution is that every living thing has the same genetic code for building amino acids, therefore there is a common cause. Is this the right definition?

Right definition? No. The most correct definition of evolution is:

The allele (sp?) frequency of a given population of organsims will change over time.

Of course the Theory of evolution goes a lot deeper than that, explaining how/why organisms change, what evolved into what, etc, etc...

Now is her statement correct? Generally, yes the statement is correct.

She says that everyone agrees on evolution, and tis impossible to deny it, but that what people disagree on is natural selection. Is this true?

Well not everyone. But you'll be hard pressed to find a scientist that is involved in a field related to evolution that does not agree with the overall idea behind the theory.

2. How is it possible to believe in Evolution and God?

Believing evolution to be true does not mean atheism. Many theists, and most christians, believe evolution to be the way in which god created. The theory may not match up with a literal interpretation of the bible, but most christians do not read the bible literally.

A good number of christians believe that the bible MUST be taken literally. They, however ignore that just because you don't take the bible literally doesn't mean it's not true. You don't read the parables that Jesus told as a literal truth, but rather a larger theological/philosophical/moral truth behind it. You can look at genesis and see a story that is trying to show the love and attention god put into his creation and that his creation is essentially good, etc.

3. How is it possible to believe in Evolution, Natural Selection and God?
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Natural selection is part of evolution. So you're essentially asking the same question.

4.Oh, and is it possible to still believe that the world was really created in 7 days? Is it possible to have vestigial organs and mutations and still have creation?


Possible? yes. Plausible/logical? I don't think so.

I looked up evolution online and it doesn't sound like the same definition she gave us in class, I walked up to her before class started and quietly (no one heard me) told her this, and she freaked out and verbally attacked me in front of everyone. She didn't like me saying that her definition might be different form the ones I find from authoritative sources.


What was the definition you were given and where did it come from? Either way, your teacher isn't very good if she did what you said she did.
 
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meshnaster

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project 2501, just because you say someone is worng doesn't mean they are. you offer no disproving evidence or anything supporting your argument. just saying the word "no" is not a valid point.

evidence against people who believe that life came from non-life and then evolved into all the creatures that exist today: they say that birds evolved from reptiles, they have found ancient reptil fossils and ancient bird fossils, but they have never found any fossils that can link them. there are no fossils of any animals that are part bird and part reptile.

concerning pterodactyl and that other lizard lookin thing with feathers, those fossils are from a time after the earliest bird fossils, so birds didn't evolve from those. birds were created.
 
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trunks2k

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meshnaster said:
evidence against people who believe that life came from non-life and then evolved into all the creatures that exist today: they say that birds evolved from reptiles, they have found ancient reptil fossils and ancient bird fossils, but they have never found any fossils that can link them. there are no fossils of any animals that are part bird and part reptile.

False. Archeoptryx is an excellent example of a animal with both avian and reptillian features, as is archeoraptor (well, the pieces of archeoraptor). In fact, there is/was a lot of arguing as to whether it should be classified as a bird or dino.
 
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trunks2k

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meshnaster said:
evolution is simply the changing of a species over time.

In general terms, yes.

evolution does exist, because not all creatures alive today are the same as their ancestors hundreds of years ago. evolution can occur because of interspecial breeding, birth defects, or other things. the genes of species change whenever those things happen, and some genes can be bred out of species so that traits change. that is evolution.

Kinda sorta. I would question your interspecies breeding statement. By most definitions of what makes a division between two species is that they cannot produce viable offspring. Two close species may be able to interbreed, but that offspring will not be able to produce it's own offspring. There is ofcoruse, a bit of leeway with this. But the important thing you are missing is that natural selection does not necessarily remove a geno/phenotype from a population. It can, and does in fact allow a new geno/phenotype to propegate through the rest of the population.

the "theory of evolution" as pertaining to creation does not really start with evolution at all. it is the belief that life came from non-life by no means other than nature.

This is outright false. Evolution presupposes life exists. Where that life came from does not matter to evolution. The origin of life is a completely seperate field. While the two theories may have a bit in common with eachother and may be linked together, they are still independent of eachother.

the thing about that theory is that there is practically no evidence to support it. some scientists speculate, and that's the entire theory. they might tell you some things that they claim prove their theory, but those things could just as well prove that beavers make pudding during springtime.

Outright false. Just go look at any science journal webpage and put evolution in the search, you'll come up with plenty of evidence.
 
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meshnaster

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trunks2k said:
False. Archeoptryx is an excellent example of a animal with both avian and reptillian features, as is archeoraptor (well, the pieces of archeoraptor). In fact, there is/was a lot of arguing as to whether it should be classified as a bird or dino.

this animal you are talking about is the same thing i was talking about in the paragraph below the one you quoted.
 
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trunks2k

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meshnaster said:
this animal you are talking about is the same thing i was talking about in the paragraph below the one you quoted.

Archy is more than a lizard with feathers. It has features of it's skeleton (i.e. bony tail, teeth, ect) that are stirctly from the dino family (not in the scientific definition of family) and other strutures that are strictly avian. It is a combination of both. It is not "just" an early bird. Or "just" a reptile with feathers. It is a mix of both reptile and avian. It is an excellent intermediate between reptiles/dinos and birds.

see:

http://talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#morphological_intermediates_ex1

For a good list of intermediates that link birds to dinos.

This:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/archaeopteryx/info.html#features
Is also a short list of the avian and reptilian features of Archy.
 
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Johnnz

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Project2501 said:
but does he actually know about evolution? It is all well and good a law professor writing a book, but would you accept advice from a plumber about where to invest your shares? or would you talk to an investment banker?
Be radical - read his book and judge for yourself.

On the same theme that you raised. Scientists are not trained as philosphers. There is a big difference between scientific evidence (data) and a metaphysical statement (cause).

John
NZ
 
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