Taking a closer look at OSAS - once-saved-always-saved

[BobRyan]

Thank you for the response but it is not actually and answer to the question asked. So let's try it again and when answering this question remember that it is not a broad question intended to cover any number of concerns but a specific question asked within the specific context of this specific op.

Soteriologically speaking.....

Do you believe God will accomplish that which He sets out to do?

If so, then do you believe there is anything created that can obstruct God from accomplishing that which He has set out to do?

As already stated -- God set out to create a universe that is based on the principle of free will - and not even Lucifer/Satan could stop Him from doing that.

This topic is a great example of that principle where God "is not willing for any to perish" 2 Peter 3 - and yet "it is the many" that fail and the "few" that make it to heaven" Matt 7.

And yet there are those who "reject God's will for them" -

Luke 7
30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.

1 John 4:14 "God sent His son to be the savior of the world" but the whole world is not saved.

God will accomplish the restoration of Eden, the second coming, the New Earth, a return to a sinless universe and the Gospel going to all the world. What He does not do is create robots -- his choice is free will as all these examples show when it comes to salvation issues -
Yesterday at 11:03 PM #11

It was true with Lucifer who turned to be Satan
With 1/3 of the sinless angles who turned to be demons
With sinless Adam and Eve who then fell and needed salvation


And as Romans 11 says "18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off."

How instructive that illustration by Christ at the point where He says "I forgave you all that debt" Matthew 18

 

[Mark Quayle]

So then why not claim OSAS in my case?

Because even though one may go to heaven and was saved the entire time going from that point in heaven - back to a point where they were saved, yet they may have had experiences before that time - that also included salvation and then they lost it - only to be "grafted in again" as Romans 11 states at which point they "persevered firm to the end".

Which also means there are those lost of whom Christ would have said
"I forgave you all that debt" Matthew 18

There are those lost who were "fallen from grace, severed from Christ" Gal 5:4 which means they had to have been joined to Christ and under grace -- to then be fallen from it.

There are those who God called "righteous" Jer 18 -- who later turn from that path and were at that point lost, as God describes for us in Jeremiah 18. (interesting that Matthew 18 and Jeremiah 18 address the same point).

It means that the "warning" given in 1Cor 6 and Romans 11 and Romans 2 - has reality in it, real teeth to it.

I don't mean to dispute what you say except for when you draw humanly-logical conclusions from it. For example, you apply "grafted in again" generically to both Jew and Gentile, while Paul refers only to the Jews there, as far as considering them once part of that natural tree, having been broken off. Not that it is particularly meaningful in that respect, but what he is referring to is their former electedness as a nation. Human logic likes to take "again" out of context, and draw conclusions without hearing the whole statement.

Of course the warning has real teeth in it. But OSAS is only true BECAUSE of election, as is the perseverance that proves the salvation. As my family is fond of saying, "We do so, because it is so."

Our eternal security is the result of God in us --a permanent situation. We MUST, and the warning is a great reminder and motivation. If our stumbling is too enjoyable, fear is a good thing; because if we do not, we are not. Not because after stumbling we are grafted in again.

Another take on it, even if taken out of context, is that he is not referring to Salvation, but the road subsequent to salvation. If we step away from the road, he is indeed capable of "grafting us [into the root] again, not to salvation but to sanctification --though I myself don't care for the arrangement of separating the two thoughts-- it is done for our human thinking, to help us handle the concepts. Theology has a way of doing that --sometimes to the detriment of deeper understanding.

I don't like OSAS for that very reason --it is a dangerous way of thinking of things, as if the Salvation moment is more important than walking with Him. We are saved because of God's choice, and he is not mocked.

 

[dqhall]

I think this topic has come up a few times on this area of the board. And for the record I am not one who claims to believe in what some popularly label as "OSAS" but I think a close objective and optimistic look at the doctrine is a good thing to do.

There are many different "flavors" of OSAS and various ones of them rejected by those who accept some other form of OSAS. For the sake of optimism I am selecting what I consider to be the most defensible version of OSAS for this topic.

The best one I have found is one that states that "if you live like the devil then you are not saved no matter what you may be claiming regarding OSAS".

It appears to me that the above is a view that is shared by

• John MacArthur
• Chuck Swindoll
• R.C. Sproul
• C.H. Spurgeon

... and a great many others who say they believe in OSAS but also know that living like the devil is not a sign of OSAS. And I agree with them on that point.

Those men also state that we are "saved by grace through faith" Eph 2:8-10 so that our salvation is "not of works" -- it is not works based salvation. And I agree with them on that point as well.

They also state that the Christian life of obedience is not to get a lost person saved - rather it is the sign, the fruit of a saved person as Christ states in Matthew 7 "by their fruits you shall know them". And I also agree with them on that point.

They also state that every person whom you may meet in heaven will be able to trace their life back from that moment in heaven - back to a point where they were saved and that they "persevered firm to the end" over that entire time. Saved that entire time. And I agree with them on that point as well.

They will also say that just because you have tradition or a magisterium telling you not to believe in OSAS does not mean OSAS is doctrinal error. And I agree with them on that point as well. They will say that "sola scriptura" is the only way to test doctrine to see if it is error... and I agree with that in so far as it means "study the Bible to see if a given doctrine contradicts scripture or aligns with it" Acts 17:11.

But as I said - I am not one who claims to believe in what is popularly called OSAS.

I remember Jesus taught if someone gives a cup of cold water to a thirsty disciple he/she will gain a reward. Jalso taught people to share food and clothing with the destitute. Jesus taught people to greet strangers. Jesus recommended visiting the sick and the imprisoned. If one is saved, the fruits of the spirit will be evident. If my brother sins against me then repents, I am supposed to forgive him. People may get second chances.

 

[Josheb]

As already stated -- God set out to create a universe that is based on the principle of free will

Got scripture for that?

Because if not your entire argument is built on a red herring.

 

[d taylor]

Matt 7 does not say "it is just false prophets that say "Lord Lord" " at the second coming.
Romans 2 does not specifically address marriage but still makes the same point.

But connected to Lord Lord is the will of The Father.
The will of The Father is seen in The Gospel of John and that being that all who look to the Son and believe in Him shall have eternal life.

Is there another will of The Father listed in the Bible besides the one in John.

 

[BobRyan]

But connected to Lord Lord is the will of The Father.
The will of The Father is seen in The Gospel of John and that being that all who look to the Son and believe in Him shall have eternal life.

And the will of the Father is also seen in 2 Peter 3 where we find that He is "not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance".

Is there another will of The Father listed in the Bible besides the one in John.

I am thinking that 2 Peter 3 would be one of the many other places we find the Father's will being expressed.

Luke 7
30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.

 

[BobRyan]

Many texts here Today at 5:58 PM #21
where we find the free will of the individual in contrast to God's plan for them.

Where we find
Luke 7
30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.

Got scripture for that?
Because if not your entire argument is built on a red herring.

I thought we were already looking at "scripture for that" here in post 21 an in
Yesterday at 11:03 PM #11

 

[BobRyan]

I remember Jesus taught if someone gives a cup of cold water to a thirsty disciple he/she will gain a reward. Jalso taught people to share food and clothing with the destitute. Jesus taught people to greet strangers. Jesus recommended visiting the sick and the imprisoned. If one is saved, the fruits of the spirit will be evident. If my brother sins against me then repents, I am supposed to forgive him. People may get second chances.

Agreed. Praise God for those "second chances"

 

[BobRyan]

So then why not claim OSAS in my case?

Answer: because rejecting God's will for yourself is very possible according to the Gospels.

Luke 7:30 " But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him."

With the result "He came to His OWN and His own received Him not" John 1:11

Because even though one may go to heaven and was saved the entire time going from that point in heaven - back to a point where they were saved, yet they may have had experiences before that time - that also included salvation and then they lost it - only to be "grafted in again" as Romans 11 states at which point they "persevered firm to the end".

Which also means there are those lost of whom Christ would have said
"I forgave you all that debt" Matthew 18 -- and then they experienced "forgiveness revoked" in Matt 18 as Christ said.

There are those in real life who have "fallen from grace, severed from Christ" Gal 5:4 according to scripture -- which means they had to have been joined to Christ and under grace -- to then be fallen from it.

There are those who God called "righteous" Ezek 18 -- who later turn from that path and were at that point lost, as God describes for us in Ezek 18. (interesting that Matthew 18 and Ezekiel 18 address the same point).

Ezek 18
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.
25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair?


It means that the "warning" given in 1Cor 6 and Romans 11 and Romans 2 - has reality in it, real teeth to it.

I don't mean to dispute what you say except for when you draw humanly-logical conclusions from it. For example, you apply "grafted in again" generically to both Jew and Gentile, while Paul refers only to the Jews there

I think you are referencing Romans 11 saying it is only the Jews that are being addressed in that chapter? Is that right?

Romans 11
13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. .
.. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, ...21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

what he is referring to is their former electedness as a nation.

Seems like a difficult stretch to insert "electedness as a nation" into "13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. ."

Just which part of the text above would you replace with "electedness as a nation"? I should think that exercise would be exhausting.

 

[BobRyan]

I don't like OSAS for that very reason --it is a dangerous way of thinking of things, as if the Salvation moment is more important than walking with Him. We are saved because of God's choice, and he is not mocked.

Well it appears to me that Swindoll and Spurgeon and Sprole etc would agree with you that "God is not mocked" and that is one of the areas where I do find agreement with them as well. "living like the devil" is not the fruit that indicates one is saved no matter what one's claim may be on that subject.

 

[BobRyan]

Our eternal security is the result of God in us --a permanent situation. .

2 Corinthians 13:5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?

 

[Josheb]

I thought we were already looking at "scripture for that" here in post 21 and in Yesterday at 11:03 PM #11

Not a single verse quoted states, "God set out to create a universe that is based on the principle of free will."

God did set out to create a dynamic and interactive world in which limited volitional agency existed, but that is not the basis for the universe and you have not proven that claim.

So, have you or have you not got scripture to prove the specific claim made? Have you scripture proving God set out to create a universe that is based on the principle of free will?



AND the questions asked before you posted this digression remains unanswered:

Do you believe God will accomplish that which He sets out to do?

If so, do you believe there is anything created that can obstruct God from accomplishing that which He has set out to do when He chooses/purposes/acts to save a person?

Shouldn't have to ask more than once.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

1 John 1:7. This is the true imputation of Christ's sacrifice. It says, If we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

What is walking in the light?
It is loving your brother (See: 1 John 2:9-11).
So a believer (who has accepted Jesus as their Savior and believes the gospel) must love their brother in order for the continued blood of Jesus to be upon their life.

We are not saved by God zapping us to be saved beyond our control, and we are not saved for all time by a one time act alone in calling upon the Lord. Yes, God's grace is where salvation starts (When we call upon the Lord - Romans 10:13), but it is not where salvation ends. Men of God have to live holy. For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). Sin can separate a believer from God (Isaiah 59:2). Sin is merely the break of God's laws (1 John 3:4). There are NT commands that are passive commands (Like: keeping the Moral Law like: Do not murder, do not steal, and do not covet, etc.), and NT commands that are active commands (Like: Love God, love your neighbor, help the poor, and preach the gospel, etc.). The active commands involve some kind of effort or work on your part; For a man of GOD cannot say he loves his neighbor and refuse to preach to lost souls, and or step over the poor guy who is begging for money, etc.; In fact, Paul says you can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).

A command would not make a whole lot of sense, if it is something you would just automatically do as a part of God enforcing His will upon your life to be saved. Many have broke God's laws including God's own people.

 

[Quasiblogo]

Many believers are familiar with how a conscience moment in time salvation is too cookie cutter to apply to all situations. Particularly to preachers kids among evangelicals and to children baptized as infants among the “mainline”. Over time, there can be the awareness (by God’s Grace extended) of “I believe”. They are not “Time X” believers, although they may have favorite moments of trust in Jesus to cherish. Sure, Time X conversion is the thrust of the NT, but there is conversion of the Overtime to consider (“and your household”). Granted, a lot of children are Time X’ers—But as I have observed, many (who believe) are not. In either case the confessed/confessing faith looks the same.

 

[Carl Emerson]

1 John 1:7. This is the true imputation of Christ's sacrifice. It says, If we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

What is walking in the light?
It is loving your brother (See: 1 John 2:9-11).
So a believer (who has accepted Jesus as their Savior and believes the gospel) must love their brother in order for the continued blood of Jesus to be upon their life.

We are not saved by God zapping us to be saved beyond our control, and we are not saved for all time by a one time act alone in calling upon the Lord. Yes, God's grace is where salvation starts (When we call upon the Lord - Romans 10:13), but it is not where salvation ends. Men of God have to live holy. For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). Sin can separate a believer from God (Isaiah 59:2). Sin is merely the break of God's laws (1 John 3:4). There are NT commands that are passive commands (Like: keeping the Moral Law like: Do not murder, do not steal, and do not covet, etc.), and NT commands that are active commands (Like: Love God, love your neighbor, help the poor, and preach the gospel, etc.). The active commands involve some kind of effort or work on your part; For a man of GOD cannot say he loves his neighbor and refuse to preach to lost souls, and or step over the poor guy who is begging for money, etc.; In fact, Paul says you can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).

A command would not make a whole lot of sense, if it is something you would just automatically do as a part of God enforcing His will upon your life to be saved. Many have broke God's laws including God's own people.

Salvation by our performance...

or Salvation by His performance...

Which is it?

 

[zoidar]

We need to simply understand if one can be born again twice...

Scripture says no...

So the matter the op raises needs to take this into account.

This is very interesting! So if a born again believer loses his faith, then he can't come to faith again? Does that mean that he has blasphemed the Holy Spirit? Origen wrote:

"...but a share in the Holy Spirit we find possessed only by the saints. And therefore it is said, ―No man can say that Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.‖ And on one occasion, scarcely even the apostles themselves are deemed worthy to hear the words, ―Ye shall receive the power of the Holy Ghost coming upon you.‖ For this reason, also, I think it follows that he who has committed a sin against the Son of man is deserving of forgiveness; because if he who is a participator of the word or reason of God ceases to live agreeably to reason, he seems to have fallen into a state of ignorance or folly, and therefore to deserve forgiveness; whereas he who has been deemed worthy to have a portion of the Holy Spirit, and who has relapsed, is, by this very act and work, said to be guilty of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit"

Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson and A. Cleveland Coxe, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. IV: Translations of the Writings of the Fathers Down to A.D. 325 (Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, 1997), 254.

What verses say that you can only be born again once?

 

[dqhall]

Salvation by our performance...

or Salvation by His performance...

Which is it?

God can save a person for a day.
What will happen if one does not obey God in return?

People in Bethsaida, Capernaum and Chorazin saw Jesus’ miracles, but rejected his teachings. He warned them they might perish - Matthew 11:21.

 

[Carl Emerson]

This is very interesting! So if a born again believer loses his faith, then he can't come to faith again? Does that mean that he has blasphemed the Holy Spirit? Origen wrote:

"...but a share in the Holy Spirit we find possessed only by the saints. And therefore it is said, ―No man can say that Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.‖ And on one occasion, scarcely even the apostles themselves are deemed worthy to hear the words, ―Ye shall receive the power of the Holy Ghost coming upon you.‖ For this reason, also, I think it follows that he who has committed a sin against the Son of man is deserving of forgiveness; because if he who is a participator of the word or reason of God ceases to live agreeably to reason, he seems to have fallen into a state of ignorance or folly, and therefore to deserve forgiveness; whereas he who has been deemed worthy to have a portion of the Holy Spirit, and who has relapsed, is, by this very act and work, said to be guilty of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit"

Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson and A. Cleveland Coxe, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. IV: Translations of the Writings of the Fathers Down to A.D. 325 (Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, 1997), 254.

What verses say that you can only be born again once?

Jeremiah covers this - the indwelling Spirit of the Fear of the Lord will not permit the believer to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. See Jer 32:40

Heb 6:4-6 speaks against being born again twice.

 

[Carl Emerson]

God can save a person for a day.
What will happen if one does not obey God in return?

People in Bethsaida, Capernaum and Chorazin saw Jesus’ miracles, but rejected his teachings. He warned them they might perish - Matthew 11:21.

Yes, they had not yet believed and did not repent.

God never gives eternal life for a day - He never breaks his covenant promises. Nothing can separate us from His Love including ourselves.

 

[dqhall]

Yes, they had not yet believed and did not repent.

God never gives eternal life for a day - He never breaks his covenant promises. Nothing can separate us from His Love including ourselves.

God can rescue or God can cut off. To be receiving God’s blessing does not always mean eternal life, but temporal life.

Paul was voting for the death of Christians; a sin that might result in eternal death. He was called to Christianity and turned from his sin.

Judas Iscariot was chosen to be a student of Christ. He was favored receiving blessings and life. After he betrayed Jesus he lost everything.

The good Lord gives and the good Lord takes away. One who was born a few decades ago should not boast about being saved for all time.