Taking a closer look at OSAS - once-saved-always-saved

[BobRyan]

I think this topic has come up a few times on this area of the board. And for the record I am not one who claims to believe in what some popularly label as "OSAS" but I think a close objective and optimistic look at the doctrine is a good thing to do.

There are many different "flavors" of OSAS and various ones of them rejected by those who accept some other form of OSAS. For the sake of optimism I am selecting what I consider to be the most defensible version of OSAS for this topic.

The best one I have found is one that states that "if you live like the devil then you are not saved no matter what you may be claiming regarding OSAS".

It appears to me that the above is a view that is shared by

• John MacArthur
• Chuck Swindoll
• R.C. Sproul
• C.H. Spurgeon

... and a great many others who say they believe in OSAS but also know that living like the devil is not a sign of OSAS. And I agree with them on that point.

Those men also state that we are "saved by grace through faith" Eph 2:8-10 so that our salvation is "not of works" -- it is not works based salvation. And I agree with them on that point as well.

They also state that the Christian life of obedience is not to get a lost person saved - rather it is the sign, the fruit of a saved person as Christ states in Matthew 7 "by their fruits you shall know them". And I also agree with them on that point.

They also state that every person whom you may meet in heaven will be able to trace their life back from that moment in heaven - back to a point where they were saved and that they "persevered firm to the end" over that entire time. Saved that entire time. And I agree with them on that point as well.

They will also say that just because you have tradition or a magisterium telling you not to believe in OSAS does not mean OSAS is doctrinal error. And I agree with them on that point as well. They will say that "sola scriptura" is the only way to test doctrine to see if it is error... and I agree with that in so far as it means "study the Bible to see if a given doctrine contradicts scripture or aligns with it" Acts 17:11.

But as I said - I am not one who claims to believe in what is popularly called OSAS.

 

[BobRyan]

So then why not claim OSAS in my case?

Answer: because rejecting God's will for yourself is very possible according to the Gospels.

Luke 7:30 " But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him."

With the result "He came to His OWN and His own received Him not" John 1:11

Because even though one may go to heaven and was saved the entire time going from that point in heaven - back to a point where they were saved, yet they may have had experiences before that time - that also included salvation and then they lost it - only to be "grafted in again" as Romans 11 states at which point they "persevered firm to the end".

Which also means there are those lost of whom Christ would have said
"I forgave you all that debt" Matthew 18 -- and then they experienced "forgiveness revoked" in Matt 18 as Christ said.

There are those in real life who have "fallen from grace, severed from Christ" Gal 5:4 according to scripture -- which means they had to have been joined to Christ and under grace -- to then be fallen from it.

There are those who God called "righteous" Ezek 18 -- who later turn from that path and were at that point lost, as God describes for us in Ezek 18. (interesting that Matthew 18 and Ezekiel 18 address the same point).

Ezek 18
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.
25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair?


It means that the "warning" given in 1Cor 6 and Romans 11 and Romans 2 - has reality in it, real teeth to it.

 

[BobRyan]

You cannot fall from some place... you were never at to start with. A Hindu that later becomes a Christian cannot claim that because he did not "persevere in remaining a Hindu" that he must never have been a hindu in the first place. That sort of argument that comes up to defend OSAS is not well thought out in my view.

 

[d taylor]

Once a person is given eternal life by God because they have trusted/believed in the promised Messiah for His gift of His eternal life. They have it never to lose it. They did no acts (except to exercise belief in Gods promise) to receive eternal life and no acts they can do can undo the gift, not even believing no more.

Of course if a person believes in a performance salvation like the men in your list above. They then will fall into the error of a person losing their salvation by their life style.

 

[OneOfTheMasters]

I agree @BobRyan !

I started my walk with God when I was 18 yrs old,worshipped in church and taught in S.S.,led a young ladies ministry,served in prayer meetings,ect.ect.
For 17 yrs. I walked in His righteousness even when life was hard. I was married to a man who was bi polar and had other mental disorders.
Then wanting a better life for my children I went back to college and in fellowship with classmates I began to drift away from my firm stance in God!
I became weakened in my faith due to lack of studying His word and praying bc I was busy studying for my degree.......
Anyway to make a l..o..n..n..g..story short ,my mom ( who was my support system) passed at 56 yrs old.
I was so overwhelmed with life and her death that I became angry at God and walked away from my path in Him.
From 1993 until 2005,I lived by MY terms,knowing that if I died,I died in sin and was separated from God!
Praises to Jesus in 2005,the Holy Spirit brought conviction into my heart and I repented of my sinful life which included,drunkeness,immortality,and two husbands more!

I was saved in 1976,blood bought and covered and baptized with the Holy Spirit!

I was lost in sin from 1993 until 2005!

I am saved today by His wonderful love and precious blood!

I do not think about eternal anything,except that God is ETERNAL!

I also do not care for the judgments of man!
I stand before a just God unto whom I give account!


blessings all!

 

[Carl Emerson]

We need to simply understand if one can be born again twice...

Scripture says no...

So the matter the op raises needs to take this into account.

 

[Athanasius377]

I am as a Lutheran a monogyrst meaning God saves apart from anything we do. I think what the objection is that some folks here OSAS sounds like, I pinched my card so no matter what I do I’m good”. That’s not what is meant. The Reformed tradition means that those who are saved will persevere to the end. Yet scripture especially in Hebrews seems to indicate that those who are saved can fall away from the faith. This is one of the differences between the Lutheran view and the Reformed view. I for one agree with the Lutheran view ( go figure). In the end both views are trying to make sense of what scripture says.

 

[Josheb]

...for the record I am not one who claims to believe in what some popularly label as "OSAS" but I think a close objective and optimistic look at the doctrine is a good thing to do........

Do you believe God will accomplish that which He sets out to do?

If so, then do you believe there is anything created that can obstruct God from accomplishing that which He has set out to do?

 

[Josheb]

I am as a Lutheran a monogyrst meaning God saves apart from anything we do...

I believer the word you're looking for is "monergist."

 

[Athanasius377]

I believer the word you're looking for is "monergist."

Auto correct.

 

[BobRyan]

Do you believe God will accomplish that which He sets out to do?

If so, then do you believe there is anything created that can obstruct God from accomplishing that which He has set out to do?

God set out to create a free will universe "whosoever will may take the water of life freely". Nothing stopped him from doing that.

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Revelation 22:17)

And the consequence? "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11

Is 5:4 "What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?"

Matt 23
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”

2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

So this explains how it is that God created a sinless universe and yet Lucifer "chooses" to derail the sinless state and deceives 1/3 of the angels to follow him.

God created a perfect planet Earth and mankind in holy sinless state of life - and they they "choose" to sin, to join Lucifer/Satan in rebellion.

God chose Israel and yet they "choose" to crucify their Messiah,

so many examples of God's perfect plan being impacted by his own sovereign irrevocable choice to sustain a free-will universe.

So "yes" God sovereignly chose to base his kingdom on a principle of "free will" and not even the devil himself could stop God from doing it.

 

[BobRyan]

Once a person is given eternal life by God because they have trusted/believed in the promised Messiah for His gift of His eternal life. They have it never to lose it. They did no acts (except to exercise belief in Gods promise) to receive eternal life and no acts they can do can undo the gift, not even believing no more.

Of course if a person believes in a performance salvation like the men in your list above. They then will fall into the error of a person losing their salvation by their life style.

The men I reference in my list do not believe you can lose your salvation. Rather they believe if you are living like the devil then --
1. You are not saved.
2. You never were saved no matter what you claim to contrary.

Its an interesting solution they have chosen for OSAS, but it deletes the assurance of salvation for 'today' since if you begin to live like the devil 20 years from today then they would retro-delete your salvation all the way back to today claiming you never were saved at all during that entire 20 year period of time ... so no salvation to lose. And while that part of their "Solution" is not appealing since it looks a bit like circular reasoning... the parts that they do get right include "if you are living like the devil you are not saved" which they easily get from Romans 2:13 and 1 Cor 7 and Matthew 7 "by their fruits you shall know them"

 

[BobRyan]

We need to simply understand if one can be born again twice...

Scripture says no...

So the matter the op raises needs to take this into account.

Post #2 does address that by referencing Romans 11 like this "..salvation and then they lost it - only to be "grafted in again" as Romans 11 states at which point they "persevered firm to the end"."

Romans 11
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

 

[Carl Emerson]

I will not budge on the issue of not being born again twice, as this blasphemes the blood of Jesus. Heb 6:4-6

I believe the grafting in is speaking of Jews and Gentiles as a people group - not individuals. In the future there will again be a time for massive revival among the Jews and they will be grafted into the vine.

However, as I have often said, one must separate the verses that refer to our eternal status from those that refer to missing out on the blessings of the Kingdom. These two seperate issues are often confused.

 

[d taylor]

The men I reference in my list do not believe you can lose your salvation. Rather they believe if you are living like the devil then --
1. You are not saved.
2. You never were saved no matter what you claim to contrary.

Its an interesting solution they have chosen for OSAS, but it deletes the assurance of salvation for 'today' since if you begin to live like the devil 20 years from today then they would retro-delete your salvation all the way back to today claiming you never were saved at all during that entire 20 year period of time ... so no salvation to lose. And while that part of their "Solution" is not appealing since it looks a bit like circular reasoning... the parts that they do get right include "if you are living like the devil you are not saved" which they easily get from Romans 2:13 and 1 Cor 7 and Matthew 7 "by their fruits you shall know them"

It is interesting that Matthew 7 is speaking about false prophets. What does that have to do with everyday church goer.

1 Cor 7 speaks of marriage did not see any verses addressing fruits or judgment for living sinful.

Romans 2:13 speaks of the law really do not see the connection these men are making, to The Law (all 613 commandments) and eternal life salvation by faith in the promised Messiah.

 

[Josheb]

God set out to create a free will universe "whosoever will may take the water of life freely". Nothing stopped him from doing that.....

Thank you for the response but it is not actually and answer to the question asked. So let's try it again and when answering this question remember that it is not a broad question intended to cover any number of concerns but a specific question asked within the specific context of this specific op.

Soteriologically speaking.....

Do you believe God will accomplish that which He sets out to do?

If so, then do you believe there is anything created that can obstruct God from accomplishing that which He has set out to do?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Thank you for the response but it is not actually and answer to the question asked. So let's try it again and when answering this question remember that it is not a broad question intended to cover any number of concerns but a specific question asked within the specific context of this specific op.

Soteriologically speaking.....

Do you believe God will accomplish that which He sets out to do?

If so, then do you believe there is anything created that can obstruct God from accomplishing that which He has set out to do?

I agree that this question gets to the nub of the issue...

Does God actually have the power to save...

 

[Josheb]

I agree that this question gets to the nub of the issue...

Does God actually have the power to save...

o, that's not quite the question at hand. The question is does He finish once He starts?

 

[Carl Emerson]

You mean He promises Eternity and gives 5 minutes?

My Loving Father would never do that.

It is a question concerning the Character of God.

The matter of the character of man is settled... our 'righteousness' is a filthy rags.

There is a huge chasm between our righteousness and His Holiness both before and after being born again.

 

[BobRyan]

It is interesting that Matthew 7 is speaking about false prophets. What does that have to do with everyday church goer.

1 Cor 7 speaks of marriage did not see any verses addressing fruits or judgment for living sinful.

Romans 2:13 speaks of the law really do not see the connection these men are making, to The Law (all 613 commandments) and eternal life salvation by faith in the promised Messiah.

Matt 7 does not say "it is just false prophets that say "Lord Lord" " at the second coming.
Romans 2 does not specifically address marriage but still makes the same point.