Taken and Left

[adam332]

First, let's see if the people who are left, are alive. In Luke 17 and Matt 24 it is necessary to notice how Christ compares the day of His return with the days of Noah and Lot, saying that people are taken and left.

In the days of NOAH, his family was taken and those left were destroyed.
In the days of LOT, his family was taken and those left were destroyed.

Luke 17:29-30 But the SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and DESTROYED [THEM] ALL. Even THUS SHALL IT BE in the day WHEN THE SON OF MAN IS REVEALED.

Notice, it was Lot that "went out" of Sodom and was spared, but those who remained were "destroyed"!

Now let's look at what Matthew says...

Mat 24:38-39 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until THE FLOOD CAME, AND TOOK THEM ALL away; SO SHALL ALSO THE COMING OF THE SON OF MAN BE.

What Christ is trying to say is simple, Christs family will be taken and those left will be destroyed.

Where most people's misunderstanding of Matthew's description, comes from is the word "took".

They automatically make the mistake of equating "took"(v.39) with "taken"(v.40). This is quite understandable, because in the English language both of those words come from the same root word, "take". But, that is not the case from the Greek in which it was translated.

The Greek text uses two entirely different words. The word "took" comes from the Greek word "airo". This word can also imply a different connatation, according to Strongs it can mean; "To take from among the living, either by a natural death, or by violence.".

That is entirely fitting with Luke's description, when he said they were all "destroyed".

The word "taken" in v. 40, comes from the two Greek words, "para" and "lambano". "Para" means "with", and "lambano" means "receive". Together these words imply a joining of something that is received to be with something else. In the context of the examples Christ has given us, the application would be that we are received to be with Him.

Let's look again at another usage of the words "para-lambano", shall we?

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive{para-lambano} you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Still not convinced? Are you still trying to force your English comparisons upon Greek text? Well, let's look at what else Christ had to say about those who are "left".

The last thing Christ had told them in Luke 17:36 was; that one would be "left".

So they asked....

Luke 17:37 "And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord?..."

To which Christ replied...

Luke 17:37 "...Wheresoever the BODY [is], thither will the eagles be gathered together."

Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the CARCASE is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

If you look up the word "eagles" in your Strongs, it will tell you that this is most likely referring to "vultures". As well, if you look in the marginal reading of your KJV of Luke 17:37 you will see they also identify these birds as "vultures".

Now, let's compare a little more scripture with scripture and see if we can verify all that I've clearly shown.

There are only a total of four verses that specifically mention "eagles" or "fowl" gathered or being commanded to gather.
We've addressed two, and here are the other two;

Eze. 39:17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered FOWL, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; GATHER yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, [even] a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.

Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the FOWLS that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and GATHER yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

Matt. 24 is definitely referring to the second coming. Let's look a some other details that Matthew and Paul tells us and compare them.

1Cor. 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Thes. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Mat. 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Twice we see that Paul identifies the dead rising at the sound of the trumpet. But, in his letter to the Thessalonians he is sure to mention that this occurs at the same time those "alive"(v.17) are caught up. And, Matthew concurs and simply refers to them all as His "elect". All of which rise to be "received"{para-lambano} to Christ at His coming, and all of which the occurs at the "sound of a trump"!! Also note that Christ is quite specific when stating that this moment will occur "after the tribulation"(v.29)!!

 

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Adams 332,

Very good! But I must correct you on one minor point:

But, in his letter to the Thessalonians he is sure to mention that this occurs at the same time those "alive"(v.17) are caught up.

You say "at the same time" but in actuality, it says:

1 Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep.

and in case you are considering the following:

1 Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

If you are a Greek scholar, then you should realize that this means that AFTER the rapture, we shall be WITH THE RESURRECTED and the Lord.

It does not SAY the resurrected and raptured shall leave this earth together. But I have other reasons to confirm that there appears to be a short separation in time between the resurrection and the rapture.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

 

[adam332]

Dad Ernie,
thanks for the kind response.

The way the passage reads is that they will be caught up together. The resurrection of the righteous dead however, will occur directly before both groups are received by Christ.

This brief moment, when the dead are being pulled from their graves, is the moment of glorification. The dead shall be raised incorruptible(1Cor. 15:52). Which of course would be the same moment that the living are being glorified by the purifying presence of the Lord. Then both glorified groups will be caught up from this earth together to the Lord. Paul says that the moment that the dead are raised up and the living are changed, is a twinkling of an eye. Neither of these passages hint in the slightest that there has been some other moment when living or dead had previously been caught up.

 

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Adam332,

The wording is very certain - "those who are alive and REMAIN". Please exegete this for me if you will.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

 

[adam332]

Those who are alive and remain are the righteous who have survived. Now I guess that I see what your trying to imply...but it just ain't there. there will be 4 kinds of people on the planet at His advent....
righteous dead
righteous living
wicked dead
and
wicked living


The righteous who did not die before his advent are those who are alive and remain. Paul is comparing and discussing two groups in the passage in question...the living and dead righteous. He does not speak of a third group of living righteous that you are somehow trying to squeeze into it by your inetrpretaion of his usage of the word "remain".

 

[Dad Ernie]

Those who are alive and remain are the righteous who have survived. Now I guess that I see what your trying to imply...but it just ain't there. there will be 4 kinds of people on the planet at His advent....
righteous dead
righteous living
wicked dead
and
wicked living


The righteous who did not die before his advent are those who are alive and remain. Paul is comparing and discussing two groups in the passage in question...the living and dead righteous. He does not speak of a third group of living righteous that you are somehow trying to squeeze into it by your inetrpretaion of his usage of the word "remain".

Greetings Adam332,

There is a remnant of the "righteous living saints" who remain behind (for a very short time) until:

1 Thess 3:12-13 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you: 13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

To whom is Paul speaking here, where are they when the Lord returns with "all his saints"?

Have you also considered WHO the TWO WITNESSES are in Rev. 11?

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

 

[parousia70]

Dad Ernie,
thanks for the kind response.

The way the passage reads is that they will be caught up together. The resurrection of the righteous dead however, will occur directly before both groups are received by Christ.

Your view hinges on an improper interpratation of the word "then." This is the Greek word epeita. Normally, when a sequence of events is described, the simple word eita "then" is used. Eita is best translated as "at that time" or "next". Eita is used to indicate an immediate sequence. We see this in:

John 19:26-27 (NKJV) When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, "Woman, behold your son!" 27 Then (eita)He said to the disciple, "Behold your mother!" And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home.​

This is a series of events - one immediately after the other.

But in this text, the Greek word is not eita but epeita, which is essentially the same Greek word with an "epi" prefix. This has the effect of affixing the word "after" to the word "then", and the best translation becomes "after then", "after that", or "after that time",and thereby doesn't include the idea of right after.



Let's look at some other uses of epeita to get a clearer idea of its meaning:

Galatians 1:18 (NKJV) Then (epeita) after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and remained with him fifteen days.​

In this case, the word "then" involved at least three years later.

Galatians 1:21 (NKJV) Afterward (epeita) I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia.​

Paul probably went first to the main seaport, Caesarea, and sailed from there to Tarsus, his birthplace (Acts 9:30). He probably then went from Tarsus, in the region of Cilicia, to Syria. It was a while after he left Jerusalem that he got to Syria and Cilicia.

Galatians 2:1 (NKJV) Then (epeita) after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me.​

Epeita here involves fourteen years.

1 Corinthians 15:23 (NKJV) But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward (epeita) those who are Christ's at His coming.​

If we were to accept your interpratation, we'd be forced to conclude that Epeita here is referring to the next immediate event. The idea, rather, is: "what came at some time afterwards, after that time, not at that time."



Now look at 1 Cor 15:5-8:

1 Corinthians 15:5-8 (NKJV) and that He was seen by Cephas, then (eita) by the twelve. 6 After that (epeita) He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that (epeita) He was seen by James, then (eita) by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.​

We see in this passage that both eita and epeita are used. In verse 15:5, we see eita, indicating that the twelve (the original apostles) saw Him immediately after Peter did, the same day. In verse 15:6, epeita is used meaning: "after that time", because the 500 didn't see Him until later. Verse 15:7, again uses epeita, meaning that some time after the 500 saw him, He appeared to James. Next, the reference is that immediately after appearing to James, He appeared to all the apostles. The point is, that the form of the word for "then"used in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is not the form eita, meaning: "right after", but the epeita, meaning: "after that time."

There is absolutely no indication of how long after. You have apparantly added the idea of "directly after " to the text, perhaps based on some previously held bias or presupposition, when examination reveals that idea does not exist in the passage as it stands itself.

 

[Dad Ernie]

Thank you Parousia70, for your explaining the Greek to our friend Adam332. Now as I have asked Adam, what are your thoughts on the Two Witnesses in Rev. 11. I see this chapter as being a picture of the resurrection with the "remnant" (vs. 13) being those who were "alive and remain".

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

 

[Justme]

Hi group,

In considering this topic it is also necessary to fit Rev. 14:13 into the understanding.
That is the verse that tells us that those who DIE after the parousia are the ones who are blessed.

That, of course, makes the meaning of 1 Thess 4 :14-18 much clearer.

Justme

 

[Dad Ernie]

In considering this topic it is also necessary to fit Rev. 14:13 into the understanding.
That is the verse that tells us that those who DIE after the parousia are the ones who are blessed.

That, of course, makes the meaning of 1 Thess 4 :14-18 much clearer.

Greetings Justme,

If what you are saying is that following the resurrection, those who die up until the rapture of the saints are blessed, then I agree with you.

God Bless,

Dad Ernie

 

[adam332]

I am very glad for the knowledgable responses...it is refreshing and shows that we have some honest students amongst our numbers. That said let's dig into this a little.

Parousia,
you said;
"There is absolutely no indication of how long after. You have apparantly added the idea of "directly after " to the text, perhaps based on some previously held bias or presupposition, when examination reveals that idea does not exist in the passage as it stands itself."

First, I had no previously held idea regarding this or anything else concerning scriptural doctrine or prophecy...I was an atheists who was raised by atheists, for the first 30 yrs of my life. My first order of business after becoming a believer... was to ignore denominational teachings altogether and assume that everyone was wrong until I came up with my own conclusions from the Bible and Bible only. The weight of evidence is what supports my doctrinal foundation. (I was always a huge Columbo fan...)

Secondly, the use of the two words that you pointed out is interesting and I do find it to be a valid point from your part...especially if one were to have "some previously held bias or presupposition".... But, it is not the entire story...now is it?

Mar. 7:4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables. 5 Then(epeita) the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands? 6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

Luke 16:6 And he said, An hundred measures of oil. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and sit down quickly, and write fifty. 7 Then(epeita) said he to another, And how much owest thou? And he said, An hundred measures of wheat. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and write fourscore.

1Cor. 10:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that(epeita) miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

James 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then(epeita) peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

To hear you tell the story one could conclude that this word was exclusively used in a manner consistent with a separation of a significant period of time, this is far from accurate. The truth being that it can mean either an immediate event that followed(as shown above), OR one that followed much later. As well, it also is used(as shown above) to show the order of importance with no bearing on time whatsoever.

The context of the usage we are currently discussing is whether this resurrection happens immediately prior to the gathering of the righteous into the air, of which this passage does indicate such. As well, Pauls confirms the moment of this event to be immediately before with his mention of a twinkling of an eye. My pre-conception comes from scripture...where does yours?

 

[adam332]

Dad Ernie,
you said;
"1 Thess 3:12-13 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you: 13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
To whom is Paul speaking here, where are they when the Lord returns with "all his saints"?"

I find it rather curious that you would use this verse or others like it, in light of the fact that you appear to have a fair knowledge of scripture and the Greek from which it was translated. As well, you seem to give me some credit for knowing a bit myself and must know that I have already answered this at least to my own satisfaction.

The word in question is "Saints", but it very crucial to note that this word was translated the huge majority of times as "Holy", it comes from the Greek word "hagios"[Strongs'#40]. The NT authors used this word several times while explaining who Christ will bring with Him. So since it is applied as an adjective and not a noun as the translators have done ...then let us let the NT authors tell us themselves who these "holy" beings are that Christ brings with him.

Mat. 13:41 “The Son of man shall send forth his ANGELS...”

Mat. 13:49 “... at the end of the world: the ANGELS shall come forth...”

Mat. 16:27 “..the Son of man shall come... with his ANGELS...”

Mat. 24:31 “..he shall send his ANGELS...”

Mat. 25:31 “..the Son of man shall come...and all the holy(hagios) ANGELS with him...”

Mark 8:38 “... shall the Son of man...cometh...with the holy(hagios) ANGELS.”

Mark 13:27 “...then shall he send his ANGELS...”

Luke 9:26 “... shall the Son of man...shall come...of the holy(hagios) ANGELS.”

2Thes. 1:7 “... the Lord Jesus shall be revealed...with his mighty ANGELS,”

So as you can see...we don't need the translators supposing on our behalf who these "holy" ones are that Christ is bringing with him...because the actual inspired writers have already told us.

 

[Symes]

If what you are saying is that following the resurrection, those who die up until the rapture of the saints are blessed, then I agree with you.

Are you saying that after the resurrection those who die will be blessed. At what point in time will they be resurrected?

This needs some further explanation.

At the resurrection the righteous dead will be caught up along with the righteous living to live with the Lord for evermore.

Those who are alive at this time and are not caught up to meet the Lord will die and be killed by the brightness of His coming and will not see the light of day until the end of the thousand years. At this time they will be resurrected to meet their maker where "every knee shall bow and tongue confess that he is Lord"

Then they will be cast into the lake of fire to burn.

Read Revelation 20

 

[adam332]

Dad Ernie,
you have inquired as to my take on the two witnesses. This seems to be a very disturbing subject for many especially considering there are those out there who are claiming to be them.

As far as the application of their resurrection...to be honest I have not concluded exactly what it means. I have done some minor study about it and have read many others conclusions...but nothing stands out as being scripturally strong...some I see as possible...but nothing by any means that I would stand by.

But I have done some research regarding them, this due to the fact that so many had seemed to determine their exact identity, but as I said not the area of their resurrection.

Here is what I have....

Elijah and Moses

Mat. 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Many view this verse as evidence that the dead are already in heaven.

The reason for this logic is obvious, Moses died, yet in this New Testament reference he is seen apparently came from heaven.

It is also logical to assume that Moses has been “changed”, in other words, he would not be fit for heaven in a sinful or corruptible body.

Luke 9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:

Luke 9:31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

As is evident from Luke’s account, that is exactly the case.

Moses and Elijah did not appear as spirits, but as “men” in “glory”.

This mention of Moses should not appear as evidence that all the righteous dead are already in heaven, anymore than this mention of Elijah is evidence that all the righteous living are already in heaven.

Both Elijah and Moses are in heaven prematurely, neither of them has to wait for the day of judgment.

The question is; “What is the significance or purpose of these two being revealed as in heaven?”

The reason for this lies in Revelations reference to the two witnesses, and the identifying terms found therein.

NOTE: This is not a “literal” identification of the two witnesses.

It simply shows two Bible characters being symbolized as them, and what purpose such a symbolism might mean.

______________

Rev. 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that IT RAIN NOT in the days of their prophecy: and have power over WATERS TO TURN THEM TO BLOOD, and to SMITE the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

As many already know, there are only two Biblical figures which were granted the power to do such things.

1. Elijah

Jam. 5:17 ELIAS was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and IT RAINED NOT on the earth by the space of three years and six months.

2. Moses

Exo. 7:20 And MOSES and Aaron did so, as the LORD commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and SMOTE the waters that [were] in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh, and in the sight of his servants; and all the WATERS that [were] in the river were TURNED TO BLOOD.

Now that we have identified exactly who is symbolized as the two witnesses, it is important to note what function two witnesses serve.

Mat. 18:16 But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses EVERY WORD MAY BE ESTABLISHED.

Also see Deu. 19:15 and 2Cor. 13:1.

To understand what exactly is being established by them, one must first notice the uniqueness of their position.

They were both faithful servants of God, and they are both already in heaven.

Yet, there is differences between them, Elijah was translated and taken to heaven without seeing death, while Moses died and was taken to heaven.

It is this difference between them that is being established, and confirms the promise made to the righteous.

1Thes. 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are ALIVE [AND] REMAIN unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent THEM WHICH ARE ASLEEP.



1Thes. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST:



1Thes. 4:17 Then WE WHICH ARE ALIVE [AND] REMAIN shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Rom. 14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.



Rom. 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be LORD OF BOTH THE DEAD AND LIVING.

The mention of Moses and Elijah are as examples, they are being symbolized as two witnesses to the glorious fate of the righteous, both living and dead, at his return.

They are Christ's evidence that not only will He change the living but resurrect the dead, and are the exception before His coming, not the rule.

He is simply following the very instruction He set forth for us(Mat. 18:16), and giving EXAMPLES that the dead will be raised and taken to heaven, and the living will be changed and taken to heaven.

We actually have two examples for both the dead and living.

Moses and Christ are witnesses to the resurrection and glorification of the righteous dead.

Elijah and Enoch are witnesses to the rapture and glorification of the righteous living.

 

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Adams332,

Here is what I have....

Elijah and Moses

I want to thank you for your in-depth response. I asked the question because I believe that Rev 11 is an important chapter linking the Gospels and Epistles to the book.

I would say that you are definately in the majority with your view, but I hope hereby to persuade you differently.

I agree with you that Moses "has been changed to his 'glorified' body", but I would also include Elijah and Enoch in that. The main reason is:

1Co 15:35-50​

But some [man] will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 [Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other [grain]: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh [is] not the same flesh: but [there is] one [kind of] flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, [and] another of birds. 40 [There are] also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial [is] one, and the [glory] of the terrestrial [is] another. 41 [There is] one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for [one] star differeth from [another] star in glory. 42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven. 48 As [is] the earthy, such [are] they also that are earthy: and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.​

A careful study of these verses reveal the difference between the earthly (natural) body and the heavenly (spiritual) body. These verses apply to Moses, Elijah and Enoch as well as they do the last believer saved.​

There is only one given in the scripture that was a "heavenly" being prior to becoming a "natural" being and that was by divine intervention. Otherwise the order for the "creation" is "the natural, then the spiritual". Never the other way around, except for the ONE exception.​

Also:​

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

So if any man were to come back, it would be called "reincarnation". If the Two Witnesses were to include Moses, then he would have been born (naturally); died; then reborn?; then die again. Now you tell me, does that make sense? As I said, I believe in order for Elijah and Enoch to be in heaven - they too must have been "changed".​

You also bring up another valuable point. That is the power that is given to the Two Witnesses. If you study carefully the comments made about John the Baptist and Elijah in the NT, you will see that JB had "the spirit of Elijah", and NOT that he was Elijah incarnated. The first time this "spirit of Elijah" was to come was to:

Luk 3:4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

But Jesus ALSO says that this "Elijah Spirit" shall also come again:

Mat 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

There has been a lot of speculation on what this means, but I believe Jesus is telling us here that the "initial" authority/power which God gave to Adam would be "restored" to him, and that God's authority on this earth would once again be the rule.

Now if you read Rev 11 carefully, you will find that at no time does it reference TWO MEN. Only two witnesses. A "witness" can be a stone, a shoe, a city, a nation, a group of people. So why two? The key to understanding this is in the two lampstands and the two olive trees. I believe you can understand the lampstands - "ye are the light", the two olive trees are the Olive Trees shown in Romans 11. There is the "natural", and there is the "wild" (the gentiles). In Christ we are made ONE - See Eph 1-3.

If you will notice in Eph 2:22, there is an interesting event that occurs. Remember after the Solomon temple was constructed, (according to pattern) and it was dedicated and the people prepared and dedicated, THEN the Shekanah Glory descended upon the Holy of Holies. This is precisely what occurs in Eph 1-3. We find Christ building a "habitation" of both Jew and Gentile wherein God shall dwell through His Holy Spirit. We see this today and from the cross forward, but ONLY in a very limited extent. When the "fulness" of the gentiles have come into the Kingdom of God, there shall also be a "fulness" of Israel soon to follow that day. Can you relate to THAT day? ALL POWER is then given to believers to "give their testimony" and to wage war against the Beast who will be waging war against the saints.

In conclusion, these Two Witnesses are the Gentile Believers and the Messianic Jews, who, armed with the Word of God will go forth giving their testimony and will not love their life, even unto death.

Have I convinced you?

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

 

[adam332]

My eyes are not that good brother, and that small ornate text is really hard for me to see. Could you please edit it to something bigger and more plain and I will respond...thanks.

 

[Justme]

Hi Adam,

This post was not addressed to me but I see some problems I think.!

The context of the usage we are currently discussing is whether this resurrection happens immediately prior to the gathering of the righteous into the air, of which this passage does indicate such. As well, Pauls confirms the moment of this event to be immediately before with his mention of a twinkling of an eye. My pre-conception comes from scripture...where does yours?

You are assuming that the twinkling of an eye means a certain thing. How about this? What if at the moment of the parousia, mankind is forever 'changed' because at that moment every person has the potential of eternal life, or the immortal soul, is at that point 'installed' in all mankind. By 'eternal life' I mean that now, finally, after the parousia mankind is no longer required to 'sleep in the dust' as those prior to the parousia had to do.

Just going from the wording of 1 Thess 4 we can not determine a timeframe as I see it, but once again I would like to point out this one -so very important- verse. Rev 14:13 which is an instruction John heard just as he turned to see the coming on the cloud event.

13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."

The people who are BLESSED are those who DIE AFTER the parousia.

Justme

 

[adam332]

The problem with that is... at that moment; when the righteous living and dead are being changed by the fiery presence of his coming, as a refiner purifies gold. The same fire burns the wicked to stubble.

Now as to the reference "13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.""

This occurs after the sealing of the people of God...and immediately prior to the great persecution of His saints. One could even say that this is the sealing of his saints. Just as in the shadow of this event, Moses in Egypt. When Moses came and God's wrath was being poured out, God's people were sealed and no harm came to them. yet during this time, the slave masters punished God's people and their persecution was increased. God's wrath is not for his people, but satan will have his own wrath and God has assured us that His judgement will be finalized and our fate secured. remember fear not him who is able to destroy the body..but fear He who is able to destroy the body and soul.

What happens in verse 14 is another vision and it's time associtaion is not relevant to the prior verse. he had many visions throughout this book many of which overlapped and are separated by various amounts of time as well there are verses which clearly backtrack to a time preceding the one before.

 

[Dad Ernie]

My eyes are not that good brother, and that small ornate text is really hard for me to see. Could you please edit it to something bigger and more plain and I will respond...thanks.

Greetings Adams332,

I understand, it is getting more difficult for me to read all the time. The easiest solution, if you use Windows & Explorer, is to go to the "View" at the top and select "Text Size", that should increase the text to be more readable. If not, please let me know and I will certainly increase the point size of my previous message.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

 

[adam332]

Well, I already have it set at "largest". so I guess I'll need it bigger and of a different font. Thanks.