Surviving the Tribulation

[zeke37]

15And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
KJV

15And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even [a]speak and cause (A)as many as do not (B)worship the image of the beast to be killed.
NASB

15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.
NIV

15 He was then permitted to give life to this statue so that it could speak. Then the statue of the beast commanded that anyone refusing to worship it must die.
NLT

It is in your opinion a bad translation and a misquote? Apparently your opinion has nothing to do with scripture. To me it just seems like a post-trib believer trying to ease his mind.

come on.....
I said YOU misquoted..and YOU did...
YOU said the wrong chapter..but no biggie...
(you meant chapter 13 and you said chapter 11)
I got your point and responded in kind...

IMO that is a bad translation and I think the KJV is the most accurate of the english translations in general...
...should be is the threat.
and as I said, protection is promised and limitations are given in Luke21/Rev9

No one said anything about beheading, but killing definitely. The only fantasy here is you trying to water down what we are told that will take place at that time.

not at all...i'm trying to put it in perspective and rightly divide scripture

God promising all out protection and then mentioning death
is a contradiction that can only be resolved by understanding which, if any, are literal
and which, if any, are metaphoric or spiritual in nature.

According to you? Ironically, scrpture indicates otherwise, and interpretation isn't even needed, it can be understood by reading it simply

scripture does not indicate otherwise...
the whole point is to rightly divide the scripture,
or else there is contradiction in what Luke21, Rev7 and Rev14 teaches about that time.
the elect cannot be both protected and dead at the same time

Maybe, maybe not, but the main debate is about pre-GT rapture, of which there is plenty of evidence to prove.

there is absolutely no evidence to prove that stance...sorry...

it's just complete and utter nonsense to believe that you are going to be removed from the planet
and not have to face the test that God would have us all face in the end times

redonkulous

I can't believe I actually bought into it even for a short time.....yikes

but of course, those were in my younger days...lol.


knowing the truth about who comes first to tempt you,
can keep one from being tempted in that hour.

you can spiritually escape the trib's temptation through being sealed with the truth....
and u can prepare for that time in advance when you see the signs begin to be complete,
because that time has been shortened for the elect's sake to a certain season.

and if you know the truth that the false Christ comes first,
to try to seduce the bride of Christ
then that means that you can stay faithful to Christ through the entire trib,
and wait patiently for His Coming,
while the rest of Christianity, as much as it pains me to say it,
gets overcome by his lies/appearance/peace/power
and take the mark of the beast

you are my audience, since u already believe a lie...
you already believe that Jesus comes first,
and you believe that you will be removed from facing the end time test

you are the perfect audience...

i know you don't believe it now,
but let it sit on a shelf in your mind,
and one day, maybe, just maybe
you'll dust off the cobwebs and have a gander



I ask this...

remember that Jesus will not be walking to and fro on the earth before the end time test, right?

even in your pre trib rapture, or what ever you wanna collectively call it,
Jesus does not land...He does a fly by instead of landing, right?

so, if someone claiming to be Jesus is here or there, believe it not...right?

ok then, we can agree to disagree....for now!

 

[zeke37]

The church is given white robes in the 5th seal and is seen wearing them in heaven before the 7th seal.

Someone is causing the sun and moon to darken and the stars to fall, casting the devil to the earth, sending the trumpet judgments and the bowls. It's Jesus, because He has returned and is pouring out his wrath before He comes to destroy.

The 144,000 of Israel who are sealed in Revelation 7 before the wrath begins are exactly who God says that they are in Revelation 7.

Jen, all your persona's and I have been over this lots of times....
the ones of the 6th seal are DEAD. Martyred.

the dead get their white robes when they die. Simple really.
those alive get them when Christ arrives.
change your theology accordingly and move on...

the 144,000 of Rev7 are the same 144,000 of Rev14,
Christians sealed before the 4 winds blow, not Jewish converts

 

[Truth Files]

"Not going to happen like you have shown because that is not even mentioned in the bible as to who will populate the Millennial Sabbath"

>The Lord's coming millennial kingdom on the earth will be one of believing mortals who will be gathered just after the tribulation period of those days .... this gathering is not a resurrection, but one of the believing surviving mortals of the tribulation period

>You say this is truth not in scripture

>How well do you know the O.T. visions that describe this truth?

>Apparently you have missed them?

>You find them and then think about what you have stated

>If you cannot .... I will post them for the forum

>You should not rebuke the Lord's Word on this issue

 

[realtruth101]

I am always wondering why so many folks who read those in the white robes are resurrected Christians, when the scripture plainly says in Rev.6:11 they are told to "REST" a little longer.....they are still waiting to be resurrected, as Paul said somewhere "to be dead" was to be with the Lord, when a Christian dies they go to be with the Lord and are waiting for the resurrection and gathering up of those who are still alive AT HIS COMING, a combined single event

 

[Truth Files]

"I am always wondering why so many folks who read those in the white robes are resurrected Christians, when the scripture plainly says in Rev.6:11 they are told to "REST" a little longer.....they are still waiting to be resurrected"

>You are correct that these are waiting for their resurrection, but the are those who will become believers and martyred for because of their faith during the tribulation period [Revelation 15:2-3; 20:4(those beheaded)]

>They are not members of today's church [both those asleep [the dead in Christ] and living just before the coming tribulation period begins]

>These will be "caught up" [resurrected/immortalized] together and they appear in heaven during Revelation's unfolding and will return with the Lord to rule over His millennial coming kingdom [Revelation 11:14; 20:4(those on thrones)]

 

[B1inHim]

B1inHim
"Not going to happen like you have shown because that is not even mentioned in the bible as to who will populate the Millennial Sabbath"

>The Lord's coming millennial kingdom on the earth will be one of believing mortals who will be gathered just after the tribulation period of those days .... this gathering is not a resurrection, but one of the believing surviving mortals of the tribulation period

>You say this is truth not in scripture

>How well do you know the O.T. visions that describe this truth?

>Apparently you have missed them?

>You find them and then think about what you have stated

>If you cannot .... I will post them for the forum

>You should not rebuke the Lord's Word on this issue

Let's take a look at scripture;


Revelation 20 (New International Version, ©2010)

Revelation 20

The Thousand Years

1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

"This is the first resurrection"
OFF POINT
This resurrection should never be confused with the "harpazo".
Back on point
Originally Posted by Truth Files
And these will enter and populate His coming millennial kingdom [Isaiah 11"11-12; 27:13; Matthew 24:29-31] .... as mortals [Acts 1:6]

As I showed earlier, none of the scripture that you presented has anything to do with who populates the Millennial Sabbath.

IF you believe that you have scripture that directly links the definitive ones who pro-create during this time frame, please provide them.

IN RESPECT to the OP...
Matthew 25

The Parable of the Ten Virgins

1 “At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3 The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4 The wise ones, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5 The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
6 “At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here’s the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’
7 “Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8 The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’
9 “‘No,’ they replied, ‘there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’
10 “But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.
11 “Later the others also came. ‘Lord, Lord,’ they said, ‘open the door for us!’
12 “But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I don’t know you.’
13 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.
Rev. 12:11
[FONT=&quot]New American Standard Bible (©1995)[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
"And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.[/FONT]

By and in His Love,
Brother Jerry

​

 

[Happy Hearts Club]

come on.....
I said YOU misquoted..and YOU did...
YOU said the wrong chapter..but no biggie...
(you meant chapter 13 and you said chapter 11)
I got your point and responded in kind...

True indeed, meant chapter 13, don't know why I said chapter 11.

IMO that is a bad translation and I think the KJV is the most accurate of the english translations in general...

...should be is the threat.
and as I said, protection is promised and limitations are given in Luke21/Rev9

Not just one, you are saying practically every translations is "bad" because they do not cater to what you want to believe of that passage. The passage is is clear cut.

Let's look at some definitions of the word "should", you'll easily see it has nothing to do with what you perceive to be bad translations, but that the KJV implies the same as any other translation when it comes to Revelations 13:15. Like I said, is it really just an issue of easing your mind? I cannot see any other legitimate reason why you would interpret that passage to make it mean something else.

Should (auxiliary verb)

1) plan to, intend to, or expect to
2) must; ought
3) will have to, is determined to, or definitely will

not at all...i'm trying to put it in perspective and rightly divide scripture

Apparently you aren't. You are taking a clear indication to the reality of death in that passage and passing it off as just a "threat". A threat? Sweet Lord. That passage can be read plain as day and it means exactly what it means.

God promising all out protection and then mentioning death

is a contradiction that can only be resolved by understanding which, if any, are literal
and which, if any, are metaphoric or spiritual in nature.

Revelations 9 was protection from the woes to unfold, not any sort of auto-immunity from everything in the GT. Luke 21 holds no evidence for this at all. And where does God promise all out protection? Why do you think Christ mentions for the sake of the elect the days will be shortened. hmm?

scripture does not indicate otherwise...

the whole point is to rightly divide the scripture,
or else there is contradiction in what Luke21, Rev7 and Rev14 teaches about that time.
the elect cannot be both protected and dead at the same time

"But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them." -Mark 13

If the elect would possess "all out protection" there would have be no need to shorten these days.

there is absolutely no evidence to prove that stance...sorry...

I would gladly elaborate, and yes there is.

it's just complete and utter nonsense to believe that you are going to be removed from the planet

and not have to face the test that God would have us all face in the end times
redonkulous

You do not understand the significance of the GT nor its purpose according to scripture. The "winepress of God's wrath". That's the only reason why it seems "redonkulous" to you.

I can't believe I actually bought into it even for a short time.....yikes

but of course, those were in my younger days...lol.


knowing the truth about who comes first to tempt you,
can keep one from being tempted in that hour.

you can spiritually escape the trib's temptation through being sealed with the truth....
and u can prepare for that time in advance when you see the signs begin to be complete,
because that time has been shortened for the elect's sake to a certain season.

and if you know the truth that the false Christ comes first,
to try to seduce the bride of Christ
then that means that you can stay faithful to Christ through the entire trib,
and wait patiently for His Coming,
while the rest of Christianity, as much as it pains me to say it,
gets overcome by his lies/appearance/peace/power
and take the mark of the beast

you are my audience, since u already believe a lie...
you already believe that Jesus comes first,
and you believe that you will be removed from facing the end time test

you are the perfect audience...

i know you don't believe it now,
but let it sit on a shelf in your mind,
and one day, maybe, just maybe
you'll dust off the cobwebs and have a gander



I ask this...

remember that Jesus will not be walking to and fro on the earth before the end time test, right?

even in your pre trib rapture, or what ever you wanna collectively call it,
Jesus does not land...He does a fly by instead of landing, right?

so, if someone claiming to be Jesus is here or there, believe it not...right?

ok then, we can agree to disagree....for now!

Simply because you do not like it or believe it "doesn't make sense" doesn't mean a thing. I posted this in another thread

[ God’s Wrath Against Sinful Humanity ] The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness," Romans 1:18

"But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger." Romans 2:7-9

"Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient." Ephesians 5:6

"Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. Because of these, the wrath of God is coming" Colossians 3:5-6

This is a fundamental, Biblical truth. Paul understood that the wrath of God is something that is inescapably due, it cannot be prevented from coming, but that it is absolutely reserved for the wicked and unrighteous. Scripture is crystal clear in revealing the end result of salvation in Christ, that it not only reconciles us to God but also exempts us from all wrath.

"Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!" Romans 5:8-10

"For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 thessalonians 5:9

"for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath." 1 Thessalonians1:9-10

Scripture itself reveals post-trib as the only true lie, as it tells us God's chosen elect will be subjected to His awesome wrath which scripture identifies incontrovertibly as being reserved for the "sons of disobedience", i.e. the sinful and unrepentant. In regards to this basic theological truth, post-trib theory is in direct contradiction.

Not only that, but there are passages that not only point to pre-trib rapture, but also cause post-trib rapture to be compeltely untenable.

"Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had[k] a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean,[l] followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp[m] sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS."

Revelations 19:13-15

This is the Second Advent that does take place after the tribulation, Christ arrives to both defeat His enemies and realise the Kingdom of God on Earth. But note that He is followed by an army of individuals who are clothed in garments that are "white and clean". Just the word "clean" automatically identifies these people as His church, these are not angelic hosts.


"Reaping the Earth’s Harvest


14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You[i] to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.
Reaping the Grapes of Wrath


17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe.” 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses’ bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs. "

Revelations 14:14-20

The grapevine is only gathered and thrown into the winepress of God's wrath once the Earth has been "reaped" by Christ. This is not any sort of "entry" or "arrival", we are told that Christ is standing on a cloud while He reaps those who are "His". This is confirmed by what we read in Thessalonians...

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words."

"Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. "(Matthew 24)

From Daniel


“At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book. "(Daniel 12)

 

[Truth Files]

"IF you believe that you have scripture that directly links the definitive ones who pro-create during this time frame, please provide them."


>I will .... hold on


>I am supprised that you have missed this truth


>Keep in mind that the Bible is one book and a substantial amount of unfulfilled prophecy is recorded in the O.T.

 

[zeke37]

True indeed, meant chapter 13, don't know why I said chapter 11.



Not just one, you are saying practically every translations is "bad" because they do not cater to what you want to believe of that passage. The passage is is clear cut.

that is not the reason...

Let's look at some definitions of the word "should", you'll easily see it has nothing to do with what you perceive to be bad translations, but that the KJV implies the same as any other translation when it comes to Revelations 13:15. Like I said, is it really just an issue of easing your mind? I cannot see any other legitimate reason why you would interpret that passage to make it mean something else.

Should (auxiliary verb)

1) plan to, intend to, or expect to
2) must; ought
3) will have to, is determined to, or definitely will

but i already explained why...in my last few posts...
because if death was literal, then there would be contradiction...

and we just cannot have that.

615
apokteinw
apokteino
ap-ok-ti'-no
from apo - apo 575 and kteino (to slay); to kill outright; figuratively, to destroy:--put to death, kill, slay.

as you can see above, the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance lists a figurative definition which I think fits...
to destroy...

the context is not known to be literal, although you decided that it is literal...
i choose not to make that same conclusion based on the fact that it would contradict other parts of scripture.
I choose to understand the passage figuratively

which is why I believe that "should be" is more appropriate

Apparently you aren't. You are taking a clear indication to the reality of death in that passage and passing it off as just a "threat". A threat? Sweet Lord. That passage can be read plain as day and it means exactly what it means.

that's the point...is death a reality in that passage???...
i contend it is not...
i contend that most "death" spoken of in Rev is not literal, but either figurative or spiritual
context and not creating a contradiction must be kept in mind...

Revelations 9 was protection from the woes to unfold, not any sort of auto-immunity from everything in the GT.

huh? Rev9 gives us the limitations of the locust army...
they cannot kill anyone...only sting/hurt/deceive....
the first 2 woes are the GT.
the last one....what a dooozy that'll be! the wrath of God!

as for the ones that are sealed of God, they are protected through the trib...

there just is no one else to "kill"...

to simplify, the good guys are protected,
and the deceived as well as the bad guys can not be killed....but only stung/hurt/deceived/seduced.

so who's left? understand my reasoning?

Luke 21 holds no evidence for this at all. And where does God promise all out protection?

protection is promised in Luke21

11And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. 12But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.



13And it shall turn to you for a testimony.



14Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.



that which was spoken of by Joel the prophet

and that which was seen as the early rains in Acts2
will happen again at the Trib's conclusion. latter rains



16And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.



death here cannot be literal....because of verse18


imo, some of the Christians that know the truth of the false Christ in the GT,

will fall to the seductions of the false Christ anyway...
meaning that they were not elect....they likewise need refinement that the Millennium brings to seduced believers.



17And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.



18But there shall not an hair of your head perish.



19In your patience possess ye your souls.

not even a hair on your head would perish, let alone be killed...

Why do you think Christ mentions for the sake of the elect the days will be shortened. hmm?


"But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them." -Mark 13

If the elect would possess "all out protection" there would have be no need to shorten these days.

the way i understand it is that the trib has been shortened to the 5 months of Rev9...a season....

i never said all out protection was promised no matter what scenario you can think of,...to every Christian.
and it is important to remember that not all Christians are the elect.

the elect will be protected because God needs them alive to witness against the false Christ and his system.

part of that protection is limiting the time that the false Christ and his system has here on earth, to 5 months....

and of men/mankind, only the elect are worthy when Christ Comes. Rev14
everyone else is deceived/beguiled/seduced...

reason with me.....
if ONLY the elect have the seal of God in their foreheads, which they do...
that means that NO ONE ELSE has that seal in their foreheads, right?

so "everyone else" would include ANYONE that does not have the seal of God in their forehead


IOW, the limitations that God places on the Locust army in Rev9, shows that they cannot KILL ANYONE...
and we already know that the sealed ones of Rev7 are protected through out the trib
and gathered by Christ in Rev14

again, they are the only only ones redeemed of men at His Coming...
(but we still have the Millennium...another thread I suppose)



they are the alive ones of 1Thes4's gathering to Christ ...
and the changed ones of 1Cor15's mystery.

there just is no pretrib rapture.

I would gladly elaborate, and yes there is.



You do not understand the significance of the GT nor its purpose according to scripture. The "winepress of God's wrath". That's the only reason why it seems "redonkulous" to you.

lol....you don't even think you'll be here for the TEST..redonkulous.

pass the test of the GT and then you are not appointed to God's wine-press....

fail the TEST and in the press you go!

who better to fail then those that think they are exempt....when they are not!

continued...

 

[zeke37]

Simply because you do not like it or believe it "doesn't make sense" doesn't mean a thing. I posted this in another thread

[ God’s Wrath Against Sinful Humanity ] The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness," Romans 1:18

"But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger." Romans 2:7-9

"Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient." Ephesians 5:6

"Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. Because of these, the wrath of God is coming" Colossians 3:5-6

This is a fundamental, Biblical truth. Paul understood that the wrath of God is something that is inescapably due, it cannot be prevented from coming, but that it is absolutely reserved for the wicked and unrighteous. Scripture is crystal clear in revealing the end result of salvation in Christ, that it not only reconciles us to God but also exempts us from all wrath.

if you stay faithful that is true...and THAT is what the GT is all about...
staying faithful or being seduced...

you don't even think you will be here to make that choice!

"Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!" Romans 5:8-10

"For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 thessalonians 5:9

"for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath." 1 Thessalonians1:9-10

now, this wrath spoken of,
must have been a threat to all those that ever read or heard these words...
you, me, Paul, Peter, everyone from then to now...

the wrath spoken here is NOT the GT...
t is when God destroys ones very soul...
the second death

Scripture itself reveals post-trib as the only true lie, as it tells us God's chosen elect will be subjected to His awesome wrath which scripture identifies incontrovertibly as being reserved for the "sons of disobedience", i.e. the sinful and unrepentant. In regards to this basic theological truth, post-trib theory is in direct contradiction.

absolutely a false statement...
the GT is NOT the wrath that we are NOT subject to as believers.
get your wraths strait!

Not only that, but there are passages that not only point to pre-trib rapture, but also cause post-trib rapture to be compeltely untenable.

" 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean,[l] followed Him on white horses.

This is the Second Advent that does take place after the tribulation, Christ arrives to both defeat His enemies and realise the Kingdom of God on Earth. But note that He is followed by an army of individuals who are clothed in garments that are "white and clean". Just the word "clean" automatically identifies these people as His church, these are not angelic hosts.

who it identifies them with, are dead believers....

all the dead believers get their "robes" at death....
it is the dead, who wait in heaven with Christ
and come back here to earth with Him when He comes...
for their resurrection to life on earth again...the time of the dead....


see Rev6's 5th seal...

9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


i contend that the brethren that are to be killed end with the 2 olive tree witnesses....
but that there are NO other martyrs in the GT

"Reaping the Earth’s Harvest


14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You[i] to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.
Reaping the Grapes of Wrath


17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe.” 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses’ bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs. "

Revelations 14:14-20

The grapevine is only gathered and thrown into the winepress of God's wrath once the Earth has been "reaped" by Christ. This is not any sort of "entry" or "arrival", we are told that Christ is standing on a cloud while He reaps those who are "His". This is confirmed by what we read in Thessalonians...

in Rev14, Christ is ON EARTH to begin the chapter...
He has landed and gathered His to Him

this "cloud" is the same "cloud" as seen in Heb12:1 IMO

we are so far apart on many issues about the end times,
this is but one more to add to the list

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words."

the 2nd Coming of Christ, not a pre trib fantasy rapture,
the time of the dead, as verse 13-14 says

"Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. "(Matthew 24)

the one taken, is i deceit...by the flood of lies that is coming...
the one remaining, is remaining working for God, as a watchman or husbandman...grinding at the mill, in the fields...

it is a very good thing to be "left behind" in that scenario, lol.

From Daniel

“At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book. "(Daniel 12)

are u written in the book? will your name be found?
if you believe in Jesus for real, I believe your name will be there...

but for many, they will need the refinement of the Millennium to get there...
and that means failing the end time GT test

what better group to fail than the group that thinks they will avoid the whole test to begin with...
and proudly so!

 

[Paxton25]

Alright, how should we plan properly to survive the Tribulation... it seems that it could be in our lifetime. I know from Revelation 3:10 that the Lord will ultimately protect us... but obviously somehow the Lord is going to allow the evil ones to slaughter a lot of us... But until that point... we can figure out how to survive it.

Should we hide in the woods/wilderness?
Should we try to build hidden, and secret underground bunkers?
There's an Island I'm thinking of that's 3 1/2 hours away from me, that only has about 350 year round residents on it, and is 53 square miles. Do you think hiding within the woods and state land on this Island would protect me?

What I'm worried about: Food supplies will be wiped out within a few years of the tribulation. Therefore MREs or freeze-dried foods will have to be stocked in the tonnage just to even allow one person to survive, let alone a family.

Fresh-water sources will probably be destroyed, at least a third of them... therefore should 500 gallon tanks be buried underground, and filled with fresh water before the tribulation starts? My dad use to own this green 300-500 gallon farm tank that would go on the back of a truck... maybe 3-4 of these could be buried and tied in with your bunker in the woods.

What about self-defense, should we as Christians try to do away with those who try to do away with us? Or if we're found out, should we just let it be? Should we carry a few guns? Should we buy bullet-proof armor and etc?

Another worry: spy satellites with infrared technology... how could a person hide in the woods and not have a satellite track you? Does anyway know of any anti-ir clothing and technology that could be used?

How should we try to survive this? My guess is that the trib could start within 20 years, but I'm unsure...

After reading Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21, I will be more focused on keeping the faith and dying well than survival. I believe that we are in the midst of the last 7 (Daniel 9) and that the Great Tribulation will begin very soon.

Consider the following passage:

Luke 21:8 And he said, ''Beware that you are not led astray; for many will come in my name and say, 'I am he!' and, 'The time is near!' Do not go after them. 9 ''When you hear of wars and insurrections, do not be terrified; for these things must take place first, but the end will not follow immediately.''

10 Then he said to them, ''Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; 11 there will be great earthquakes, and in various places famines and plagues; and there will be dreadful portents and great signs from heaven. 12 ''But before all this occurs, they will arrest you and persecute you; they will hand you over to synagogues (courts) and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors because of my name. 13 This will give you an opportunity to testify. 14 So make up your minds not to prepare your defense in advance; 15 for I will give you words and a wisdom that none of your opponents will be able to withstand or contradict.

16 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, by relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 17 You will be hated by all because of my name. 18 But not a hair of your head will perish (be destroyed). 19 By your endurance you will gain your souls.

Re: your concerns
1) Christians are the lights of the world; we don’t take cover in darkness.
2) Food shortages have already begun. It is prudent to gather emergency supplies and get to know your neighbors. All the food in the world won’t help you if you stand alone against a band of scavengers.
3) Gather food supplies such as rice, flour, oatmeal, non-hybrid vegetable seeds, concentrated green veggie powder, honey, vitamins, and canned goods for your pantry. A year’s worth is adequate. Acquire the skills and materials to live off the land.
4) Water purification is the way to go; you can filter water with charcoal and purify it by adding bleach or boiling it.
5) Accept the fact that the day is coming when Christians and others deemed threats to national security will be rounded up and executed. Most Christians will be beheaded. The detention camps are already staffed and operational; the guillotines are sharpened and ready to behead faithful Christians who refuse to deny their faith or get chipped. Only a ‘fortunate’ few will to survive the wars, famines, natural and man-made disasters, diseases, death and a personal visit by the antichrist’s army.

If you really want a safe place to hide your body (not your soul), go to Jerusalem, Jordan or Brussels. I’m not going anywhere but outside the city when it becomes uninhabitable (when my food supplies run out & anarchy reigns).

Let the Great Tribulation begin! Mt. 24:21 For at that time there will be great suffering, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no one would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

 

[Happy Hearts Club]

that is not the reason...


but i already explained why...in my last few posts...
because if death was literal, then there would be contradiction...

and we just cannot have that.

615
apokteinw
apokteino
ap-ok-ti'-no
from apo - apo 575 and kteino (to slay); to kill outright; figuratively, to destroy:--put to death, kill, slay.

as you can see above, the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance lists a figurative definition which I think fits...
to destroy...

the context is not known to be literal, although you decided that it is literal...
i choose not to make that same conclusion based on the fact that it would contradict other parts of scripture.
I choose to understand the passage figuratively

which is why I believe that "should be" is more appropriate

Yet you fail to provide any concrete evidence as to this "all out protection" we will somehow receive, of which is where this apparent "contradiction" comes from.

that's the point...is death a reality in that passage???...
i contend it is not...
i contend that most "death" spoken of in Rev is not literal, but either figurative or spiritual
context and not creating a contradiction must be kept in mind...

So you hold there will be no death throughout this time? Same concept as arguing God flooded the earth "symbolically" and killed all living creatures on earth "symbolically". Despite the fact that the scriptures are clear, we throw in symbolism where it doesn't belong, which is what you are doing.

I still find it ridiculous how you want to cling to the idea that Rev.13:15 doesn't actually imply "killing", and that the word "should" implies simply a "threat" or that the beast will somehow kill non-conformists "symbolically".

 

[Happy Hearts Club]

lol....you don't even think you'll be here for the TEST..redonkulous.

I hold to pre-wrath rapture, this doesn't imply me believing I won't be tested.

pass the test of the GT and then you are not appointed to God's wine-press....

fail the TEST and in the press you go!

who better to fail then those that think they are exempt....when they are not!

Regardless, what is the equivalent of passing the test/escaping the winepress?

 

[Truth Files]

"IF you believe that you have scripture that directly links the definitive ones who pro-create during this time frame, please provide them."

>The following scriptures prove that mortals will enter and populate the Lord’s coming millennial kingdom

>These passages of prophetic scripture have never been fulfilled as recorded, but they will be

[Isaiah 11:1-10; Jeremiah 30:18-20; 31:8-9; Ezekiel 36:10-11; 36:36-37; Micah 4:1-3; Zechariah 14:17-19; Revelation 20:1-3]

>The nations of the Lord’s coming millennial kingdom will be mortals kept from satan’s deceptions

>The immortals of His church will rule with Him over these mortals of the nations for a period of 1000 years .... and beyond

 

[Truth Files]

"you don't even think you'll be here for the TEST..redonkulous"

>Do you think you will be?

>How do you know this?

>What if you die before what you refer to as the "Test" for the believer in the tribulation?

>Will this possibility of missing the experience disqualify you for gaining eternal life?

>What sort of "testing" do you think you need as a believer .... have you have enough .... or do you need more?

>Do you know anyone who has died as a believer and was never tested by the Lord's coming judgment?

>If so, how do you explain their lack of testing in the coming tribulation period when the scriptures would clearly confirm the person's salvation

>Do you understand just what the Lord's coming tribulation will be for .... and the reason?

>You seem to imply that it will be for the believer in Jesus Christ

Here is the Lord's message to the believer of today [Revelation 3:10]

Here is the Lord's message to those of the unbelieving world who will be tested [2Thessalonians 2:2-12]

And this will include those who sit on the fence of "professing" christianity [Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:15-19]

 

[NightHawkeye]

After reading Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21, I will be more focused on keeping the faith and dying well than survival.

Exactly. If things work out happier, then so much the better.

It seems clear from Revelation that we are expected to learn and benefit from the tribulation experience:

Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
​

Words of love, whether realized or not ...

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
​

I believe that we are in the midst of the last 7 (Daniel 9) and that the Great Tribulation will begin very soon.

Or, maybe sooner ...


YouTube - The Book of Revelation Is Happening NOW! You Must See This! The 7 Trumpets Are Blowing!

Mt. 24:21 For at that time there will be great suffering, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no one would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Isaiah 63:3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.
6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.
7 I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, and the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses.
​

 

[Truth Files]

Revelation 3:15-19 is not directed to the believer of today, but to those who profess christianity and are not .... the world is full of these people today

If you are one of these and the Lord's hour [time] of trial and judgment comes upon you, you will definitely enter, and if you do not repent, He will spit you out [reject you]

And you will end up in the lake of fire

His coming time of testing will be against an unbelieving world .... those who turn to Him during the period can be saved [although most will be martyred]

The greater balance of humanity existing at the time will be killed and lost forever [billions according to Revelation's unfolding]

 

[NightHawkeye]

Revelation 3:15-19 is not directed to the believer of today, but to those who profess christianity and are not .... the world is full of these people today.

I prefer to think that many just need additional shepherding ...

A clear distinction in that regard is made for the "firstfruits":

Rev 14:4 These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations:
...
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

.
​

 

[Truth Files]

"I prefer to think that many just need additional shepherding"

>Continue to do this if the opportunity arises

>Those who say they are christians and are not are the most difficult to move

>Today's professing church is full of them

>Here is what the Lord says to these [Revelation 3:15-19]

>It is actually easier to convince an atheist or one who follows another religion [cold] than to move the one who thinks they are saved and are not [lukewarm]

>One who is "hot" is a genuine believer

>So He says "I wish that you were either cold, or hot .... but because you are in the middle and sitting on the fence .... I will spit [reject] you out"

 

[zeke37]

"you don't even think you'll be here for the TEST..redonkulous"

>Do you think you will be?

of course, unless I die before hand...so will you, unless you die first

>How do you know this?

because scripture is clear...after means after...

>What if you die before what you refer to as the "Test" for the believer in the tribulation?

>Will this possibility of missing the experience disqualify you for gaining eternal life?

not at all...
but those alive at the end, for the test,
are specifically chosen to go through that test...

this test is for this specific generation
and God has His reasons...

>What sort of "testing" do you think you need as a believer .... have you have enough .... or do you need more?

the same test that 5 of 10 virgins fail,
and the same test that Paul warns us of in 2Cor11
and the same test that Christ warns us of in Mat24/Mat25
Because of what happens in the testing time, Christ will say to many...
i never knew you/get thee hence...

>Do you know anyone who has died as a believer and was never tested by the Lord's coming judgment?

don't be silly

>If so, how do you explain their lack of testing in the coming tribulation period when the scriptures would clearly confirm the person's salvation

what? get real! grow up

>Do you understand just what the Lord's coming tribulation will be for .... and the reason?

well, I know you certainly do not yet...
but that is what I am attempting to show you...

>You seem to imply that it will be for the believer in Jesus Christ

Here is the Lord's message to the believer of today [Revelation 3:10]

by knowing the truth, we can be kept from being tempted,
and be patient to the end...
after all, our very souls depend on it...
(but go ahead and believe that you fly away.
remember that i was pretrib, so i've heard it all.....)

Here is the Lord's message to those of the unbelieving world who will be tested [2Thessalonians 2:2-12]

And this will include those who sit on the fence of "professing" christianity [Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:15-19]

funny, that Paul starts, by teaching Christians about
what has to happen before the Lord returns
when we are gathered to Him...

but have at your fantasy....it's not about us at all...sarcasm

no...no false Jesus to watch for.......more sarcasm
no...no description of a lamb even, to watch for....that speaks as a dragon...more sarcasm
no...no repeated warnings to endure to the end....more sarcasm...




there are no GT converts...not sarcasm
the ones that are sealed, are sealed before the 4 winds blow the GT...not sarcasm
any mention of Saints or believers in Christ or those that have His testimony,
means us the church...not sarcasm
the two candlesticks of Rev11 are 2 churches described in ev2-3...]
Smyrna and Philadelphia...not sarcasm







if we are overcome, it is us the church....
if we are faithful, it is us the church...

we (the church) are here for it all, either faithful or not.