Supreme Court Strikes Down D.C. Gun Ban, Upholds Right to Keep and Bear Amrs

mont974x4

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The "will of the people" does not apply, as far as I know. Like in California when the people voted on a ballot initiative that was against gay marriage..thus the will of the people was heard...and that was overturned by the court...thus judicial activism.


Is that what happened inthis case? Or was the handgun ban in DC enacted by a group of politicians without the will of the people taken into account?
 
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Washington

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WASHINGTON — The Supreme Court says Americans have a right to own guns for self-defense and hunting, the justices' first definitive pronouncement on gun rights in U.S. history.
Considering the Court is made up of seven justices nominated by a Republican president, and that all of the majority were either Bush or Reagan nominees, this comes as absolutely no surprise. I guess Republicans just have this crazy need to compensate. Go figure.
 
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Maren

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The "will of the people" does not apply, as far as I know. Like in California when the people voted on a ballot initiative that was against gay marriage..thus the will of the people was heard...and that was overturned by the court...thus judicial activism.


Is that what happened inthis case? Or was the handgun ban in DC enacted by a group of politicians without the will of the people taken into account?

Oh, so it was only "judicial activism" in California and not in Massachusetts, where the marriage laws were not voted on by a ballot initiative? Strange then that so many conservatives also point to that ruling as "judicial activism". Besides, if something is against the Constitution, as is being claimed here, why does it matter if it was the legislature representing the people or the people in a voter initiative? Are you seriously telling me that if this law had been verified as the will of the people in a voter initiative that you would say that it is then permissible to ignore the Constitution?
 
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mont974x4

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You brought up the "will of the people" and I explained the situation. I'll leave you to witch hunt, since I don't have the patience to explain how laws are made at the various levels of government and how they are tested and challenged in the courts.
 
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Maren

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You brought up the "will of the people" and I explained the situation. I'll leave you to witch hunt, since I don't have the patience to explain how laws are made at the various levels of government and how they are tested and challenged in the courts.

And I don't need an explanation of how laws are made or the various levels of government, I have a very strong understanding. Nor did I "witch hunt", I merely pointed out something I've noticed about claims of "judicial activism". I think that you somehow feel singled out says more about you than it does me.
 
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IisJustMe

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And I don't need an explanation of how laws are made or the various levels of government, I have a very strong understanding. Nor did I "witch hunt", I merely pointed out something I've noticed about claims of "judicial activism". I think that you somehow feel singled out says more about you than it does me.
I believe what Monty is saying is that there a constitutional guarantee of the right to bear arms. There is no corresponding right to gay or lesbian marriage, nor should there be. In that respect, there can be no comparison of the two issues, particularly as relates to so-called "judicial activism." It is not activist to uphold a constitution guarantee. It is activist to create a guarantee that does not exist out of thin air.
 
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mont974x4

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I believe what Monty is saying is that there a constitutional guarantee of the right to bear arms. There is no corresponding right to gay or lesbian marriage, nor should there be. In that respect, there can be no comparison of the two issues, particularly as relates to so-called "judicial activism." It is not activist to uphold a constitution guarantee. It is activist to create a guarantee that does not exist out of thin air.

:thumbsup: yep

and it's activist to go against the will of the people on an issue that is not a Constitutional issue in the first place
 
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Maren

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I believe what Monty is saying is that there a constitutional guarantee of the right to bear arms. There is no corresponding right to gay or lesbian marriage, nor should there be. In that respect, there can be no comparison of the two issues, particularly as relates to so-called "judicial activism." It is not activist to uphold a constitution guarantee. It is activist to create a guarantee that does not exist out of thin air.

But there is a constitutional guarantee that all people are to be treated equally under the law unless the State can show a reason why there should be limits. In fact, there is even a legal term for this called scrutiny, and both courts used scrutiny tests in determining the state had no just cause to limit marriage.

Or, another example, the Supreme Court has previously determined that gun rights can be denied to ex-convicts because the state, through a scrutiny test, has reasons compelling enough to deny ex-convicts guns despite it being a Right guaranteed in the Constitution. In this case, the court had to rule the reasons for the gun ban and decide if the reasons would pass scrutiny. In fact, both the gay marriage case and this gun ban case were the same -- both were based on the constitutional rights of the people.

Not to mention, just as I seem to recall you pointing out about the California case, the fact that it was decided by a single vote indicates that the issue here is not as clear cut as what is being claimed.
 
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Morcova

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Except if we look at the crime rates in the Western countries that have strict gun laws, they're pretty much all lower than the US. There's literally more homicides in the US involving firearms than the next ten countries put together.

My problem isn't that you're all shooting each other. My problem is that American weapons are oozing across the border into Canada.

Don't worry about it, Canada has strict gun laws.

We know the criminal is concerned with gun laws.
 
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Morcova

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:thumbsup: yep

and it's activist to go against the will of the people on an issue that is not a Constitutional issue in the first place

When did equal treatment under the law becoming something other than a constitutional issue?
 
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susanann

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My problem isn't that you're all shooting each other. My problem is that American weapons are oozing across the border into Canada.



That is impossible!


It is illegal for Americans to bring guns into Canada, there is a law against doing that. Canada has strict gun laws, and Canada does not permit any oozing of weapons accross its border.
 
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Baggins

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Oddly enough, in states and cities in America with fewer gun restrictions, violent crime is down overall. By the way, how is Switzerland's violent crime rate?

If we go by homicide by firearm: third in the industrialised world after the US and Italy;

FIREARM HOMICIDE RATES
USA: 3.98
Italy: 0.81
Switzerland: 0.50
Canada: 0.4
Finland: 0.35
Australia: 0.24
France: 0.21
England/Wales: 0.15

(Per 100,000 people. Source: Kings College London)

Probably that high because all adults are required to a keep a firearm at home, because the Swiss really do keep weapons for the running of a well founded millitia, Sill 1/8 of the american murder rate though.

I can only assume that Italy is so high because it has a hunting with firearms culture much like the US so there are lots of weapons around.

The murder rate by firearm in the US is more than 30 times higher than that of the UK and yet we are still having a moral panic about firearm crime in the UK.
 
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IisJustMe

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But there is a constitutional guarantee that all people are to be treated equally under the law unless the State can show a reason why there should be limits.
They are being treated equally under the law. Gay men have the right to marry any woman they want, and any lesbian can marry any man she wishes. I don't say that to be flippant. I say it because the interest in maintaining marriage as one male and one female is paramount to the psychological health of children. Being moved from one house to another, having six or eight "mommies" and "daddies" and being subjected to a teaching in public schools that is opposed to the teaching being received in the home are just a few of the nightmares available to them the day marriage is no longer defined by tradition, legal precedent, theological guidelines and most importantly, the overwhelming support of the majority of people in the US.

Further, the legal support for "gay marriage" will not be the stopping point for efforts to redefine marriage and destroy the traditional family unit, again to the detriment of the children's psychological well-being as well as the well-being of the adults who are victimized by the "instant divorces" that will result from that redefinition. To the first point, there has already been several efforts to legalize polygamy as the result of
Lawrence v. Texas (Cornell School of Law archives) in Utah and Texas both. Judge Antonio Scalia predicted such efforts would be made once SCOTUS reversed and remanded Texas' sodomy law. Within six months, he was proven correct, as the justices expanded their rendering beyond the mere striking down of the sodomy law to rule that a local or state view holding certain acts (without defining those acts, thus leaving the sentence open to interpretation) as morally corrupt was not sufficient reason for that locality or state to maintain laws against those acts. Gay and lesbian activists "pooh-pooh" the idea legalizing marriage for their particular type of relationship will lead to the legalization of polygamy, inappropriate behavior with animals and other perversions of the marital institution, but they are wrong, and that wrong will further erode the moral standards of this country, just as Roman was undermined by sensual perversions and by the fact the primary income source in the empire for the individual migrated to investment activity. Sound familiar?

Courts will no longer be able to favor the traditional family in awarding custody, adoption or foster care. This means children will further be exposed to the very real potential for sexual, emotional, physical and spiritual abuse by a wide variety of adults. People who currently are barred from being qualified to engage in such legal decisions in their favor will no longer be barred in that fasion. No, I'm not talking about gays and lesbians, I'm talking about pedophiles and emotionally/mentally unstable individuals whose perversions can no longer be barred from child custody issues.

My major concern will not even phase most people, and that is the spiritual and cultural war for men's souls will be over. Once the world sees the US go this route, hundreds of nations will follow suit, the message of Christ will be diluted or ignored, and it will be as in the days of Noah.

So to say that gays and lesbians currently are not protected by the courts is to err regarding the rights extended. They have the same rights I have. They want more, and there is no such thing as "more equal" under the law.
 
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It boils down to this, if you can't celebrate the fact that the people of DC are a little closer to being able to defend themselves, then you are not an American.

Though still in DC they consider semi-autos to be assault rifles, so really the only thing these people can own are revolvers. It just goes to show the stupidity of the anti-gunners.
 
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DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, ET AL., PETITIONERS v.
DICK ANTHONY HELLER​

The Second Amendment provides: “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.” In interpreting this text, we are guided by the principle that “[t]he Constitution was written to be understood by the voters; its words and phrases were used in their normal and ordinary as distinguished from technical meaning.” United States v. Sprague, 282 U. S. 716, 731 (1931); see also Gibbons v. Ogden, 9 Wheat. 1, 188 (1824). Normal meaning may of course include an idiomatic meaning, but it excludes secret or technical meanings that would not have been known to ordinary citizens in the founding generation.

--Heller v. D. C., Majority Opinion, authored by Judge Activist Antonin Scalia​

At the time the Second Amendment was made, there was well established common law governing the interpretation of legal instruments. There is an abundance of evidence that the lawmakers assumed the well established common law rules of construction would be used to ascertain the meaning of the words of the Constitution and Bill of Rights. It was well established common law in the late 1780's, that,
THE fairest and most rational method to interpret the will of the legislator, is by exploring his intentions at the time when the law was made, by signs the most natural and probable. And these signs are either the words, the context, the subject matter, the effects and consequence, or the spirit and reason of the law. Let us take a short view of them all.

1. Words are generally to be understood in their usual and most known signification; not fo much regarding the propriety of grammar, as their general and popular use. Thus the law mentioned by Puffendorfl, which forbade a layman to lay hands on a priest, was adjudged to extend to him, who had hurt a priest with a weapon. Again; terms of art, or technical terms, must be taken according to the acceptation of the learned in each art, trade, and science. So in the act of settlement, where the crown of England is limited “to the princess Sophia, and the heirs “of her body, being protestants,” it becomes necessary to call in the assistance of lawyers, to ascertain the precise idea of the words “heirs of her body;” which in a legal sense comprise only certain of her lineal descendants. Lastly, where words are clearly repugnant in two laws, the later law takes place of the elder: leges pofteriores priores contraries abrogant is a maxim of univerfal law, as ell as of our own conftitutions. And accordingly it was laid down by a law of the twelve tables at Rome, quod populus poftremum juffit, id jus ratum efto.

Inst. 1. 2. 6.
L. of N. and N. 5. 12. 3.

2. IF words happen to be still dubious, we may establish their meaning from the context; with which it may be of singular use to compare a word, or a sentence, whenever they are ambiguous, equivocal, or intricate. Thus the proeme, or preamble, is often called in to help the construction of an act of parliament. Of the same nature and use is the comparison of a law with other laws, that are made by the fame legislator, that have some affinity with the subject, or that expressly relate to the same point. Thus, when the law of England declares murder to be felony without benefit of clergy, we must retort to the fame law of England to learn what the benefit of clergy is: and, when the common law censures simoniacal contracts, it affords great light to the subject to consider what the canon law has adjudged to be simony.

3. AS to the subject matter, words are always to be understood as having a regard thereto; for that is always supposed to be in the eye of the legislator, and all his expressions directed to that end. Thus, when a law of our Edward III. forbids all ecclesiastical persons to purchase provisions at Rome, it might seem to prohibit the buying of grain and other victual; but when we confider that the statute was made to repress the usurpations of the papal fee, and that the nominations to vacant benefices by the pope were called provisions, we shall see that the restraint is intended to be laid upon such provisions only.

4. AS to the effects and consequence, the rule is, where words bear either none, or a very absurd signification, if literally understood, we must a little deviate from the received sense of them. Therefore the Bolognian law, mentioned by Puffendorf m, which enacted “that whoever drew blood in the streets should be punished with the utmost severity,” was held after long debate not to extend to the surgeon, who opened the vein of a person that fell down in the street with a fit.

l. 5. c. 12. §. 8.

5. BUT, lastly, the most universal and effectual way of discovering the true meaning of a law, when the words are dubious, is by considering the reason and spirit of it; or the cause which moved the legislator to enact it. For when this reason ceases, the laws itself ought likewise to cease with it. An instance of this is given in a cafe put by Cicero,or whoever was the author of the rhetorical treatise inscribed to Herennius. There was a law, that those who in a storm forsook the ship should forfeit all property therein; and the ship and lading should belong entirely to those who staid in it. In a dangerous tempest all the mariners forsook the ship, except only one sick passenger, who by reason of his disease was unable to get out and escape. By chance the ship came safe to port. Now here all the learned agree, that the sick man is not within the reason of the law; for the reason of making it was, to give encouragement to such as should venture their lives to save the vessel: but this is a merit, which he could never pretend to, who neither staid in the ship upon that account, nor contributed any thing to it's preservation.

--Sir William Blackstone's Commentaries on the Law of England.

If the Supreme Court wants to ascertain the will of the lawmakers at the time they made the Second Amendment, the Court should follow the rules of construction the lawmakers probably intended for the Court to use.

PS: The "normal and ordinary" meaning of the word "arms" in the late 1780's was, "human upper limbs; especially the part between the shoulder and the wrist."
 
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