Superiority

[TheBarrd]

Okay, but when He does, who would do the exterminating for Him?

If I am to accept that God tells people to kill populations of people for reasons of His own, then how can I say that Isis is wrong if they believe God has commanded them to kill populations of people for reasons of His own? But I have to say it's wrong for Isis to do it, so I have to accept that it was wrong for the Israelites to do it no matter why.

Do you see my dilemma? Do you see why I can't say the Bible is better than the Koran?

Believe it or not, I do see your point.
However, I can't agree with it.
For one thing, the art of killing has gotten a bit more advanced since then. I mean, you can kill an awful lot more people with a bomb than you can with the jawbone of an ass. Even iron chariots would be at a major disadvantage.
For another, what you are thinking of as "entire populations" likely didn't amount to more than a few hundred people, if that. These were mostly little city-states that were getting knocked out, not entire nations in the way we think of them. More like tribal wars.

But the biggest thing, I think, that you are forgetting is that the Bible is separated into two separate covenants.
All of this violence that you object to...well, that was the old covenant.
Under the new covenant, we are enjoined to love God with all of our being, and to love our neighbor as ourself.
And before you ask "who is my neighbor", I would refer you to Jesus' parable of the Good Samaritan.
I would also refer you to His Sermon on the Mount, where He discussed how we are to deal with our enemies...I'm too lazy to look it up for you right now, but I'm pretty sure you know what I'm talking about.

I have never read about Christian "honor killings"...have you?
As far as I know, Christian women are free to own property, have a job, keep a bank account...even drive a car.
No one ever marched a group of Christian women into a field and slaughtered them while Christian men looked on, cheering...at least not that I've ever heard of.
Christian women...at least most of us...dress pretty much as we please...other than Catholic nuns, I don't think I've ever seen a Christian woman in a hijab, or however they spell it.
There is certainly a problem with the Koran when it comes to women.

 

[JGG]

many are called few are chosen

But you are chosen?

 

[TheBarrd]

But there must be. How many paths are there?

Jesus seemed to think that the only Way to the Father was through Him.
So, if you want to know more about it, I guess He'd be the one you'd have to consult.
If I had to guess, I'd say that He will meet you where you are...and work from there.
He knocked Paul off of his high horse...but Peter was told to let down his nets. He saw Nathaniel under a fig tree. And He sent Philip to a eunuch who was just passing through.
As I say...there is no "one size fits all" approach...

 

[FireHeart]

But you are chosen?

Whether I am chosen or

But you are chosen?

Whether I am chosen or not that is up to God

 

[BabylonWeary]

Twelve? Where does 12 come from?

It's in the Bible. I think it starts in Genesis, chapter 49. Oh, and what a trip, I just noticed that in chapter 7 of the Revelation, 7x7=49. That probably doesn't mean anything in and of itself, just a coincidence, but it's neat.

 

[JGG]

Believe it or not, I do see your point.
However, I can't agree with it.
For one thing, the art of killing has gotten a bit more advanced since then. I mean, you can kill an awful lot more people with a bomb than you can with the jawbone of an ass. Even iron chariots would be at a major disadvantage.
For another, what you are thinking of as "entire populations" likely didn't amount to more than a few hundred people, if that. These were mostly little city-states that were getting knocked out, not entire nations in the way we think of them. More like tribal wars.

I have to admit I don't see how this is helpful. Are you suggesting that how many people are killed, or how they are killed changes whether or not killing is moral?

But the biggest thing, I think, that you are forgetting is that the Bible is separated into two separate covenants.
All of this violence that you object to...well, that was the old covenant.
Under the new covenant, we are enjoined to love God with all of our being, and to love our neighbor as ourself.
And before you ask "who is my neighbor", I would refer you to Jesus' parable of the Good Samaritan.
I would also refer you to His Sermon on the Mount, where He discussed how we are to deal with our enemies...I'm too lazy to look it up for you right now, but I'm pretty sure you know what I'm talking about.

Aren't you simply saying that genocide was acceptable during the first covenant, but is not now?

I have never read about Christian "honor killings"...have you?

In Uganda (as well as other places) Christians have taken it upon themselves to kill homosexuals, and attempted to put into law that homosexuals should be put to death. Is that particularly different than honor killings? Is it better?

As far as I know, Christian women are free to own property, have a job, keep a bank account...even drive a car.
No one ever marched a group of Christian women into a field and slaughtered them while Christian men looked on, cheering...at least not that I've ever heard of.

In Nazi Germany there are tales of priests pulling Jews from their houses, and the predominantly Christian crowd beating them, stealing their clothes, belongings and eventually their homes, all the while cheering. I don't see that as particularly different, or better.

I'm not saying this to point fingers, but to demonstrate that our culture is not any better. We have merely civilized ourselves, and progressed a little faster.

That being said my partner is Muslim and married. His wife has a job, her own car, perhaps her own bank account, but certainly her own credit cards.

Christian women...at least most of us...dress pretty much as we please...other than Catholic nuns, I don't think I've ever seen a Christian woman in a hijab, or however they spell it.
There is certainly a problem with the Koran when it comes to women.

Yes, but that's most of them. Certainly not all. We know there are instances, where women are expected to dress a certain way, cannot hold certain jobs, are expected to merely cook, clean, and bare children.

Not better. We've just progressed a little quicker.

 

[JGG]

Whether I am chosen or not that is up to God

Do you know who is not chosen?

 

[JGG]

It's in the Bible. I think it starts in Genesis, chapter 49. Oh, and what a trip, I just noticed that in chapter 7 of the Revelation, 7x7=49. That probably doesn't mean anything in and of itself, just a coincidence, but it's neat.

Jesus seemed to think that the only Way to the Father was through Him.

The number I was hinting at was 1.

 

[TheBarrd]

But you are chosen?

Is it possible for a person to know that he/she is "chosen"? I wouldn't have used that word, myself...but one works with what one is given.

John seemed to think that we could know:

2 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

 

[TheBarrd]

The number I was hinting at was 1.

 

[FireHeart]

Do you know who is not chosen?

As educational as it has been debating with you it seems to be pointless to continue doing so, I'm sorry if I have confused you or made you think I believe in any way am some kind of chosen special believer

 

[JGG]

As educational as it has been debating with you it seems to be pointless to continue doing so, I'm sorry if I have confused you or made you think I believe in any way am some kind of chosen special believer

I apologize. I do not actually mean to debate. I just enjoy asking questions. I'm interested.

Understand that I do not doubt that you are a Christian. I am just not a fan of the whole chosen/True Christian idea. It is a particular problem of mine. I feel (and think I demonstrated) it spins in circles.

I am going to ask one more big question in a bit. Feel free to answer.

 

[JGG]

Sort of closing question to answer: In your estimation, why am I an atheist?

 

[FireHeart]

I apologize. I do not actually mean to debate. I just enjoy asking questions. I'm interested.

Understand that I do not doubt that you are a Christian. I am just not a fan of the whole chosen/True Christian idea. It is a particular problem of mine. I feel (and think I demonstrated) it spins in circles.

I am going to ask one more big question in a bit. Feel free to answer.

In all honesty I have been wondering about the whole true Christian thing myself. I believe it was said to be saved you declare that Jesus Christ is Lord and accept him into your heart that salvation is a free gift. However If it's really that simple then why is it that some Christians turn into judgmental hot headed ppl who think they are better than others and look down upon those weaker in faith and then you have those who actually show the heart of God.

If it's really so simple as that then why the huge difference in the hearts of believers

 

[TheBarrd]

I have to admit I don't see how this is helpful. Are you suggesting that how many people are killed, or how they are killed changes whether or not killing is moral?

I'm saying that at certain times, under certain circumstances, killing is necessary.

Aren't you simply saying that genocide was acceptable during the first covenant, but is not now?

I'm saying that the rules have been changed.

In Uganda (as well as other places) Christians have taken it upon themselves to kill homosexuals, and attempted to put into law that homosexuals should be put to death. Is that particularly different than honor killings? Is it better?

So, those who killed homosexuals were breaking the law of that country?
And you want me to say they were wrong to do so?
I'm pretty sure you know the answer to that.
I'm fairly certain that you have heard the commandment "thou shalt not kill"...and that you have also heard Jesus expound on it, saying that we are not even to be angry without a cause.

In Nazi Germany there are tales of priests pulling Jews from their houses, and the predominantly Christian crowd beating them, stealing their clothes, belongings and eventually their homes, all the while cheering. I don't see that as particularly different, or better.

And again, I would agree with you. However, I don't see it written in my Bible that we are to pull Jews from their homes and beat them, or steal from them.
Is it in yours?

Let me add here that my Dad, who was also a Christian, fought in that war. I have told elsewhere about how he was shot down, and how he led a group of POWs to safety. So, evidently, there were Christians on both sides.
Is it fair to judge them by what those others were doing?

I'm not saying this to point fingers, but to demonstrate that our culture is not any better. We have merely civilized ourselves, and progressed a little faster.

That being said my partner is Muslim and married. His wife has a job, her own car, perhaps her own bank account, but certainly her own credit cards.

I begin to see the problem here.
When you say "partner", do you mean "business partner"?

I'm going to hazard a guess that your partner and his wife live here in America, and are not subject to Islamic laws?

es, but that's most of them. Certainly not all. We know there are instances, where women are expected to dress a certain way, cannot hold certain jobs, are expected to merely cook, clean, and bare children.

I don't see any of those rules in my Bible.
Are they in yours?

 

[FireHeart]

Sort of closing question to answer: In your estimation, why am I an atheist?

There are many reasons why ppl are atheists. My best friend is one, he gave up on the idea of God because of the harshness and unfairness of life but at the same time he has always had a scientific mind. I don't blame ppl for being atheists especially if all they have seen from us Christians is the judgment hypocrtical hot headedness and condemnation. There is a reason Christianity is a joke to the world

 

[TheBarrd]

Sort of closing question to answer: In your estimation, why am I an atheist?

Why do you show yourself as "Non-Denominational"?
Why not come out and admit that you are an atheist?

 

[FireHeart]

Why do you show yourself as "Non-Denominational"?
Are you intentionally misleading people?

it's possible he thought that denominational meant atheism

 

[TheBarrd]

I'm going to ask you again...when you speak of your Muslim partner who is married, are you referring to a business partner?
Or is there another meaning to the term, as I suspect?

 

[TheBarrd]

it's possible he thought that denominational meant atheism

Perhaps, my innocent and gullible friend.
Or perhaps he has a darker reason for hiding his atheism...

I have lost count of the numbers of atheists I have met who are gay.
It isn't really so much that they don't believe in God as that they are angry with Him and rejecting Him because they feel rejected by Him and by His followers.
But a partnership with a married Muslim man? He's just begging for trouble.