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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Superiority Complex.
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ephraimanesti
Senior Veteran
HOW CAN THE SERVANT BE ISRAEL WHEN THE SERVANT IS BEING SENT TO SAVE JACOB/ISRAEL?
ephraim
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Because Israel refers to a nation, it refers to the Northern Kingdom, and it also refers to those who remained observant to God. Do all caps make your argument somehow more powerful?
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ephraimanesti
Senior Veteran
Well, i suspect we had better agree to disagree because we are going around in circles.
CAPS are neither here nor there.
PEACE!
ephraim
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Just as long as my understanding is shown as valid, even if disagreed with, I am ok with that. I do not like the insistence that my understanding is illogical or invalid.
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ephraimanesti
Senior Veteran
MY BROTHER,
Your "understanding" just makes no sense. Read the passage. Think about what it says. Think about how it says what it says. Isaiah 49:5-7:
"And now the Lord says--He who formed me in the womb to be His servant TO BRING JACOB BACK TO HIM and GATHER ISRAEL TO HIMSELF." (Isaiah 49:5) How can the Servant BE Jacob/Israel when He was formed in the womb to "BRING JACOB BACK TO HIM" and to "GATHER ISRAEL TO HIMSELF."?
"He says, 'It is too small a thing for You to be my Servant to RESTORE THE TRIBES OF JACOB and BRING BACK THOSE OF ISRAEL I HAVE KEPT.' " How Can the Servant BE Jacob/Israel and at the same time "RESTORE THE TRIBES OF JACOB and BRING BACK THOSE OF ISRAEL."?
ABBA'S FOOL,ephraim
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Josiah14
Make your sole goal acquisition of the Holy Spirit
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Well, I think I have heard pretty consistently that one cannot argue anyone into Christianity. Jesus Christ is not a philosophical idea, He is a person, and He is God. As such, the only way to conclusively verify the Christian understanding of the Scriptures is to go to Christ.
I would like to say that the only valid understanding of the Scriptures is the one(s) that agree(s) with reality. I would not say that your understanding was unintelligent or poorly thought out. I would say, though, that cognitive reasoning can only get you so far.
I found Christ through prayer, not intellectual or philosophical analysis. I didn't have any visions, nor did I hear any voices (as some would like to think God would do for you). I came to understand Christ as God by a revelation in my nous. It is impossible to describe what this is like unless you have had the same experience - it's not physical, it's spiritual.
I say this so that everyone here knows, at the end of the day, I will never try to prove Christ to you (If I do, please call me out). I can show what Christianity is, and that the Scriptures can be understood through it in such a way that they complement each other and reveal Christ as the Messiah, but I dont think anyone can prove this as one proves a scientific theory. If you want proof, you yourself have to take the time to pray and open yourself up to the possibility of Christ as the Messiah.
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MY BROTHER,
Your "understanding" just makes no sense. Read the passage. Think about what it says. Think about how it says what it says. Isaiah 49:5-7:
"And now the Lord says--He who formed me in the womb to be His servant TO BRING JACOB BACK TO HIM and GATHER ISRAEL TO HIMSELF." (Isaiah 49:5) How can the Servant BE Jacob/Israel when He was formed in the womb to "BRING JACOB BACK TO HIM" and to "GATHER ISRAEL TO HIMSELF."?
"He says, 'It is too small a thing for You to be my Servant to RESTORE THE TRIBES OF JACOB and BRING BACK THOSE OF ISRAEL I HAVE KEPT.' " How Can the Servant BE Jacob/Israel and at the same time "RESTORE THE TRIBES OF JACOB and BRING BACK THOSE OF ISRAEL."?
ephraim
So we cannot agree to disagree as you suggested?
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razeontherock
Well-Known Member
Israel is a type of Christ. Look at the curses of Deut 28, and their fulfillment by Israel.
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razeontherock
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Yes, the servant is National Israel. And Israel is a type of Christ. You can have prophecy fulfilled in a natural sense, which in no way reduces it's Spiritual application(s).
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sentipente
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When humans convince themselves they can interpret prophetic language the roots of confusion are sown. What exactly is "spiritual application?" An application to spirits? What is that?
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hamashiachagape
Newbie
The Zohar doesn't concur with this explanation. It was thought by the 1st century rabbis that in fact, Israel 53 was an explanation of the Messiah. So your rabbis contradict here. The whole Isaiah 53 being about Israel is a recent invention. The tsadiyq is in fact a reference to Mashiach.
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How recent of an invention is it?
Also, the Zohar does concur with this explanation. It does at some point equate the suffering servant to the messiah, but also to Moses and Elijah. It is surprising you don't mention the times it doesn't say it is the messiah, but zero in on the few times it does. More often than not is is corporate Israel.
What sources are you quoting when you say 1st century rabbis said it was about the messiah? Can I see them?
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Just to throw it out there. For anybody who wants to tell me that the view was a "recent invention" please read chapter 54 and 55 of this CHURCH FATHERS: Contra Celsus, Book I (Origen)
It's a Christian document that was written around 250 that specifically states that Jews of that time believed it was about corporate Israel.
It's a Christian document that was written around 250 that specifically states that Jews of that time believed it was about corporate Israel.
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ephraimanesti
Senior Veteran
MY BROTHER,
A good example would be Jesus' Parables--Simple stories about earthly situations which are symbolic of deep Spiritual Truths. Another would be the fact that all the endless rites, rituals, rules, and regulations found in the Pentateuch have a spiritual application and are symbolic of the Spiritual realities which they prefigure.
ABBA'S FOOL,ephraim
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razeontherock
Well-Known Member
Keep seeking! Humans don't need to interpret prophetic language. If you have to ask what Spiritual application is, you don't yet have the Spirit of Truth. Keep seeking ...
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Instead of refering and reading other peoples writings have you ever thought about thinking things out for yourselves?
why are you all so concerned with how other people thought about things? what do you think about things?
just asking.
why are you all so concerned with how other people thought about things? what do you think about things?
just asking.
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