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Super-Continent Pangaea

joshua 1 9

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So, you feel it is enough to just claim that that is where Eden is?
You are not listening at all. If your going to be a dogma hunter then you got to leave your ivory tower and get out of your lazy boy chair and get out and hunt down your dogma. So far you are coming up empty handed.

Pangea broke up into pieces. One of those pieces was the Arab Continental plate. The Persian gulf is actually located on a fault line between the Arab Plate and the India Plate. At the time of Eden 6,000 years ago these plates were joined together and this was dry land. There was a land damn at the strait of hormuz holding the water back. At the time of Noah this land damn broke and the Persian gulf was formed. Noah saved the world. That is he saved all the plants and animals that were in this area that was flooded at the time. This was the beginning of domestication or what some people call artificial selection or selective breeding.

This is important to understand. Man was now able to carry plants and animals from the bio-diverse eco-system in the Middle East to another bio-diverse eco-system in Europe. Look at Darwin's finches in the Galápagos Islands. MAN did not carry those birds to those islands. Yet because of Noah man was able to take the Garden of Eden to the whole world.

People ask why didn't the animals just walk out of the flood area. That would have been natural selection. Adam and then Noah were the real beginning of artificial selection. Farming spread from the Middle East to Europe and to the rest of the world from there. It is very interesting to study the Silk Road and all the Ancient Cities in the Middle East. Only now they are very war torn and a lot of the Ancient world is being destroyed by the terrorists that do not want to take care of the artifacts of antiquity.
 
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Herman Hedning

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Adam is not actually the name of a person. Adam represents mankind or humanity. The story of Eden reads like an allegory with talking snakes and Angels with flaming swords.

There you go. Sometimes you sound quite reasonable.

Yet we read that Adam and Eve had children and those children founded cities and we have the genealogies all the way from Adam to Jesus. Generation after generation we read stores about the descendants of Adam. We read about Adam's sons and how one son killed another. Then we hear about Enoch and we are told that Enoch walked with God and Enoch is a type of the Church today. We find story after story after story about the descendants of Adam that we read in the generations or the genealogies of Adam.

Yes, those are just that - stories. If you like genealogies, how about the Sumerian King List? That goes back about 250,000 years - surely that must mean it is all true?

The Bible as History is confirmed by Historians like Josephus and Bishop Ussher and all of their many sources. We have many sources outside of the Bible that confirms what we read in the Bible.

Well, we may have other sources for many of the historical events, but none that says Jehovah is the true god and Jesus was his son - or himself in another incarnation. Outside of Jewish or Christian religious literature of course.

There are at least 60 people in our Bible that we find historic reference to outside of the Bible. We have archeological evidence for all the cities we read about in the Bible.

Troy exists, is that evidence for the Greek pantheon being true?

We have an abundant overwhelming amount of evidence to substantiate and confirm the Bible is accurate and true.

Sou you keep saying ...

The skeptics and scoffers have produced nothing to back up their claims. Their opinions are not even based on logic or sound reasoning.

It would be possible to say the same thing about your claims. What goes around comes around.
 
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bhsmte

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Ow, are we back to denying evolution?
I thought you said that your beliefs concerning evolution match those of Collins?

If you wish to be reminded what Collins' stance on the theory is, read my sig.

He has no problem with collins view on evolution, until he does.
 
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Jimmy D

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You are not listening at all. If your going to be a dogma hunter then you got to leave your ivory tower and get out of your lazy boy chair and get out and hunt down your dogma. So far you are coming up empty handed.

Pangea broke up into pieces. One of those pieces was the Arab Continental plate. The Persian gulf is actually located on a fault line between the Arab Plate and the India Plate. At the time of Eden 6,000 years ago these plates were joined together and this was dry land. There was a land damn at the strait of hormuz holding the water back. At the time of Noah this land damn broke and the Persian gulf was formed. Noah saved the world. That is he saved all the plants and animals that were in this area. This was the beginning of domestication or what some people call artificial selection or selective breeding.

This is important to understand. Man was now able to carry plants and animals from the bio-diverse eco-system in the Middle East to another bio-diverse eco-system in Europe. Look at Darwin's finches in the Galápagos Islands. MAN did not carry those birds to those islands. Yet because of Noah man was able to take the Garden of Eden to the whole world.

Agriculture was spread over Europe (never mind Asia and America) a long time before then, as has been brought to your attention many times.

Europe-diffusion-farming.gif
 
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joshua 1 9

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how about the Sumerian King List?
I would like to study the clay tablets but I do not know how to read the language so I am at the mercy of the translators. Very few people can translate those clay tablets. We know that Moses translated clay tablets for us and we know that he was dependable in the work that he was able to do in his day. There are many many tablets waiting for someone to translate them and tell their story.
 
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joshua 1 9

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Agriculture was spread over Europe (never mind Asia and America) a long time before then, as has been brought to your attention many times.
From the perspective of the Neolithic revolution the Bible begins around 12,900 years ago. A day in genesis is 1,000 years. We find Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden around 6,000 years ago. There are people that I will go step by step through the whole process with them. I do not think that you are that interested to learn any of this though. The beginning was actually 20,000 to 30,000 years ago when they first began to weave baskets to carry their grains and food. Even they would grind the grains down to make them easier to eat. All of this is still a food gathers and not yet a food producer. Also they had fishing hooks, sowing needles and fishing nets. Man came up out of Africa into a new bio-diverse eco-system that the neanderthals inhabited. The neanderthals were more hairy and they did not need clothing. Modern man needed clothing to migrate north into the colder climate. Going East or West is always a lot easier then going North and South because of the difference in climate. In fact a lot of people started to migrate south very recently when they invented the Air Conditioners. In African they had clothing made from the fiber of the fig tree but it was more decoration then anything else. That is why in the Bible we read about: "the LORD God made clothing from animal skins for Adam and his wife." The Fig leaf was not enough to keep them warm: "they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths." This was not actually "leaves" as I said this was the fiber from the Fig Tree and actually their clothing was not that much more then just paper and only good for their special festivals.

"Traditions of Cloth Production and Design Bark cloth, or cloth made from tree bark, predates the development of woven textiles in most parts of Africa. Today it is rarely used for day-to-day clothing, but some societies use it for ceremonial costumes. The Ganda of Uganda, for example, make fabric from the inner bark of fig trees, which is worn during ceremonial dances and other occasions when ancestors are being honored. "

http://www.africastyles.com/blackhistory/history_clothing.html

In general it is very difficult to study the history of clothing. You will find some remains in the bogs of Europe. But for the most part clothing just does not last for tens of thousands of years. http://www.toptenz.net/10-oldest-pieces-clothing-accessories-world.php
 
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Jimmy D

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From the perspective of the Neolithic revolution the Bible begins around 12,900 years ago. A day in genesis is 1,000 years. We find Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden around 6,000 years ago. There are people that I will go step by step through the whole process with them. I do not think that you are that interested to learn any of this though. The beginning was actually 20,000 to 30,000 years ago when they first began to weave baskets to carry their grains and food. Even they would grind the grains down to make them easier to eat. All of this is still a food gathers and not yet a food producer. Also they had fishing hooks, sowing needles and fishing nets. Man came up out of Africa into a new bio-diverse eco-system that the neanderthals inhabited. The neanderthals were more hairy and they did not need clothing. Modern man needed clothing to migrate north into the colder climate. Going East or West is always a lot easier then going North and South because of the difference in climate. In fact a lot of people started to migrate south very recently when they invented the Air Conditioners. In African they had clothing made from the fiber of the fig tree but it was more decoration then anything else. That is why in the Bible we read about: "the LORD God made clothing from animal skins for Adam and his wife." The Fig leaf was not enough to keep them warm: "they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths." This was not actually "leaves" as I said this was the fiber from the Fig Tree and actually their clothing was not that much more then just paper and only good for their special festivals.

"Traditions of Cloth Production and Design Bark cloth, or cloth made from tree bark, predates the development of woven textiles in most parts of Africa. Today it is rarely used for day-to-day clothing, but some societies use it for ceremonial costumes. The Ganda of Uganda, for example, make fabric from the inner bark of fig trees, which is worn during ceremonial dances and other occasions when ancestors are being honored. "

http://www.africastyles.com/blackhistory/history_clothing.html

In general it is very difficult to study the history of clothing. You will find some remains in the bogs of Europe. But for the most part clothing just does not last for tens of thousands of years. http://www.toptenz.net/10-oldest-pieces-clothing-accessories-world.php

I appreciate that you take the time to type responses Joshua, despite my occasional snarky attitude (please call me out on it when you see fit) I do enjoy our conversations.

What you posted really doesn't address my point though. You said that ...

"At the time of Noah this land damn broke and the Persian gulf was formed. Noah saved the world. That is he saved all the plants and animals that were in this area that was flooded at the time. This was the beginning of domestication or what some people call artificial selection or selective breeding."

To which I responded that agriculture was already spread throughout Europe (my map) and the rest of the world thousands of years before. I'm sorry, but your interpretation of the story doesn't match the historical timescales.
 
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DogmaHunter

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You are not listening at all. If your going to be a dogma hunter then you got to leave your ivory tower and get out of your lazy boy chair and get out and hunt down your dogma. So far you are coming up empty handed.

What dogma would that be?

Pangea broke up into pieces. One of those pieces was the Arab Continental plate. The Persian gulf is actually located on a fault line between the Arab Plate and the India Plate. At the time of Eden 6,000 years ago these plates were joined together and this was dry land. There was a land damn at the strait of hormuz holding the water back. At the time of Noah this land damn broke and the Persian gulf was formed. Noah saved the world. That is he saved all the plants and animals that were in this area that was flooded at the time. This was the beginning of domestication or what some people call artificial selection or selective breeding.

Domestication began a lot further back in time.
And wasn't, in any way, exclusive to the middle east.

Also, why are you talking about Pangea when making claims about things that supposedly happened a mere 6000 years ago?

This is important to understand. Man was now able to carry plants and animals from the bio-diverse eco-system in the Middle East to another bio-diverse eco-system in Europe.

Dude... agriculture and domestication of both animals and plants was happening long before 6000 years ago...........................................


Look at Darwin's finches in the Galápagos Islands. MAN did not carry those birds to those islands. Yet because of Noah man was able to take the Garden of Eden to the whole world.

Including kangaroo's?

People ask why didn't the animals just walk out of the flood area. That would have been natural selection.

If god could "command" the animals to board the ark, I'm sure he could have also "commanded" the animals to simply leave the area.

In fact, being all powerfull and all... one can even wonder why he required a big boat in the first place.... I mean, he could have just snapped his non-physical, timeless, all-powerfull, miraculous fingers and have all animals and plants simply teleported instantly to the other side of the planet.


Adam and then Noah were the real beginning of artificial selection.

If you are claiming that that happened 6000 years ago, then I can only inform you that that is wrong and that agriculture and domestication started thousands of years before that.

Farming spread from the Middle East to Europe and to the rest of the world from there.

Really, now?
So when, in the past 6000 years, did people go to latin america?
 
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joshua 1 9

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Agriculture was spread over Europe (never mind Asia and America) a long time before then, as has been brought to your attention many times.
Yes, I have studies this extensively and I continue to study the Neolithic Revolution. We have to look at what Darwin said that things take place over time. There is time between when: "God said, Let the earth bring forth grass," and when "God saw that it was good." So we only need to study two words: SAID & SAW. I know that before Darwin it was popular to believe that God said it and in a instant poof there it was. But that is not the way God works. The Bible looks at the finished process. Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden 6,000 years ago was the finished product. Like a photo. Just like your camera on your phone can take photos and your camera can take movies. A movie is still made up of many photos taken over time. So you have a collection of different moments in time. Genesis Chapter one is more like a movie that takes place over a 7,000 year period of time, according to dispensationalism. Also a day in Genesis can be millions or billions of year. I do not deny OEC but I am not going to try to explain it to anyone.

The question then is why do the exact same words mean different things to different people? First of all words can have two meanings: "connotative meaning" and "the denotative meaning". http://work911.com/communication/differentmeanings.htm

To understand this we can to look at the teaching of Jung. Where Archetype means: "pattern, model or type". I use to love to read allegories as a new Christian. I esp like "Hinds Feet on High Places" by Hannah Hurnard. That was before the internet when I use to read a lot of books. Lets look at one of Hannah Hurnard stories:

"Much-Afraid, I have already warned you that Love and Pain go together, for a time at least. If you would know Love, you must know pain too.’

"Much-Afraid looked at the thorn and shrank from it. Then she looked at the Shepherd’s face and repeated his words to herself. ’When the seed of Love in your heart is ready to bloom, you will be loved in return,’ and a strange new courage entered her. She suddenly stepped forward, bared her heart, and said, ‘Please plant the seed here in my heart.’"

Hannah is talking about how a flower has thorns and how there is a lesson in this for us. The flower represents love and in order to know love we have to deal with the thorns that can cause pain for us.

We can look at Atoms and see a lesson for marriage. We see that atoms are based on weak and strong attraction and there are forces of repulsion. So the attraction has to be stronger then the repulsion. The beauty of the rose has to be greater then the pain from the thorns. The attraction has to be stronger then the repulsion.

Getting back to the point, the Neolithic Revolution began at the beginning of this age when the Ice melted. There was a mass extinction and then a radiation or population explosion. On the eighth day (6,000 years ago) we find Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden and at that point in time God is finished with all of His work. He worked for 6 days or 6,000 years, then He rested on the seventh day and we find Adam and Eve on the Eighth day around 6,000 years ago.

They do not know when the Nano Diamond Comet was exactly, science says 12,900 years ago. But I also use the Friday the 13 Comet for a marker. According to NASA Asteroid 2004 MN4 will come scarily close to Earth on April 13, 2029. Interestingly enough this will be the date when Jesus went to Calvary. Exactly 2,000 years later a Comet will pass over Jerusalem to mark the event. Then we know 50 days later on Pentecost the Holy Spirit was poured out and this was the beginning of the Christian Church. We always follow the Hebrew Calendar. Seven years later the same comet will pass over Jerusalem again on Resurrection Sunday to mark the say that Jesus was resurrected. The world calls this easter sunday.

At the time in about 12 years lots of people will be writing lots of books trying to make lots of money off of the event. They will accomplish little more then to confuse everyone esp the infidels as to what is going on. Good I never charge anyone anything. Everything I have to offer is free. Jesus paid the price at Calvery.

So when your looking at the Bible as allegory or archetypes. This is known as poetry. Then the Bible is History, The Bible is Science. The Bible is a collection of 66 books written by about 40 authors, in three different languages, on three different continents, over approximately 1600 years. In Gen 1:2 we read: "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep." This is science. This is the condition the earth was in 12,900 years ago when the Nano-Diamond hit the earth. Interestingly Jeremiah 4:23 talks about this: "I looked at the earth, and it was formless and empty; and at the heavens, and their light was gone." I can not explain this but Jeremiah talks about what we read in Gen 1:2.
 
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joshua 1 9

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Including kangaroo's?
The Kangaroo is conclusive evidence that Noah's flood did not cover the whole earth. This is really just a sound bite, just a quick way to say something. There is overwhelming evidence paid for by off shore oil exploration. Biodiversity is based on pre-flood distribution of the various biodiverse ecosystems. Darwin's islands are just the tip of the iceberg. There are tens of thousands of islands each with their own unique biodiverse ecosystem. http://www.indopacific.org/biodiversity.asp

1238825516df60db9dd3215d6920e40f.gif
birdofparadise.jpg


biodiversity_clip_image002.jpg
 
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Jimmy D

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The Kangaroo is conclusive evidence that Noah's flood did not cover the whole earth. This is really just a sound bite, just a quick way to say something. There is overwhelming evidence paid for by off shore oil exploration. Biodiversity is based on pre-flood distribution of the various biodiverse ecosystems. Darwin's islands are just the tip of the iceberg. There are tens of thousands of islands each with their own unique biodiverse ecosystem. http://www.indopacific.org/biodiversity.asp

1238825516df60db9dd3215d6920e40f.gif
birdofparadise.jpg


biodiversity_clip_image002.jpg

That gif is very weird! :eek:
 
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Loudmouth

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As a Christian we believe that God created us. I realize that the skeptics and scoffers believe that man created God and in their case I do not question them on this at all. In fact I am sure the God they believe in is a product of their imagination.

"And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." Gen 6:5

All of which has nothing to do with what I wrote.
 
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Jimmy D

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Yes, I have studies this extensively and I continue to study the Neolithic Revolution. We have to look at what Darwin said that things take place over time. There is time between when: "God said, Let the earth bring forth grass," and when "God saw that it was good." So we only need to study two words: SAID & SAW. I know that before Darwin it was popular to believe that God said it and in a instant poof there it was. But that is not the way God works. The Bible looks at the finished process. Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden 6,000 years ago was the finished product. Like a photo. Just like your camera on your phone can take photos and your camera can take movies. A movie is still made up of many photos taken over time. So you have a collection of different moments in time. Genesis Chapter one is more like a movie that takes place over a 7,000 year period of time, according to dispensationalism. Also a day in Genesis can be millions or billions of year. I do not deny OEC but I am not going to try to explain it to anyone.

I don't agree, but I understand your interpretation (I should do by now), we were talking about the flood though.

You said that ...

"At the time of Noah this land damn broke and the Persian gulf was formed. Noah saved the world. That is he saved all the plants and animals that were in this area that was flooded at the time. This was the beginning of domestication or what some people call artificial selection or selective breeding."

To which I responded that agriculture was already spread throughout Europe (my map) and the rest of the world thousands of years before. I'm sorry, but your interpretation of the story doesn't match the historical timescales.

You need to address this if your ideas are to be taken seriously.
 
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joshua 1 9

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To which I responded that agriculture was already spread throughout Europe (my map) and the rest of the world thousands of years before. I'm sorry, but your interpretation of the story doesn't match the historical timescales.

I do not know what you call farming, but for me you need a plow and an animal to pull that plow.
"from about 4000 BC, the use of cattle transformed plowing, making it possible to cultivate larger areas and deeper soils."
" It therefore took several millennia to spread throughout western and southern Asia, and across northern Africa (including Egypt) and Europe. By 3500 BC most human beings were farmers,"
http://www.timemaps.com/farming

"Plows are thought to have been invented in Mesopotamia in approximately 3000 BC. "
http://patentpending.blogs.com/patent_pending_blog/2004/10/history_of_the_.html

capture1006200482147_am.jpg


Genesis 2:15(NASB)
15 Then the Lord God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it.

Neolithic means stone. The Neolithic Revolution called the Agricultural Revolution, was the wide-scale transition of many human cultures from a lifestyle of hunting and gathering to one of agriculture and settlement, allowing the ability to handle an increasingly larger population. wiki

You can plow with wood and stones, but you really need metal to get the job done.
Did they have cycles during the stone age also?

136db8ebe730019761ba3757929cdb85.jpg
 
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Loudmouth

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I do not know what you call farming, but for me you need a plow and an animal to pull that plow.
"from about 4000 BC, the use of cattle transformed plowing, making it possible to cultivate larger areas and deeper soils."
" It therefore took several millennia to spread throughout western and southern Asia, and across northern Africa (including Egypt) and Europe. By 3500 BC most human beings were farmers,"
http://www.timemaps.com/farming

"Plows are thought to have been invented in Mesopotamia in approximately 3000 BC. "
http://patentpending.blogs.com/patent_pending_blog/2004/10/history_of_the_.html

capture1006200482147_am.jpg


Genesis 2:15(NASB)
15 Then the Lord God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it.

Neolithic means stone. The Neolithic Revolution called the Agricultural Revolution, was the wide-scale transition of many human cultures from a lifestyle of hunting and gathering to one of agriculture and settlement, allowing the ability to handle an increasingly larger population. wiki

You can plow with wood and stones, but you really need metal to get the job done.
Did they have cycles during the stone age also?

136db8ebe730019761ba3757929cdb85.jpg

Evidence for Paul Bunyan:

"The relentless march west through the United States in search of white pine continued until the timber barons arrived in Minnesota to grab the last vestiges of this high-in-demand species. By 1875 logging was big business, due to the abundance of trees, expanding rail system, and network of waterways extending all the way to the Gulf of Mexico."
http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/forestry/anniversary/peaklogging.html

The stories about Paul Bunyan say that he was a lumberjack during that period, so is this scientific proof that Paul Bunyan was a real person?
 
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bhsmte

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Evidence for Paul Bunyan:

"The relentless march west through the United States in search of white pine continued until the timber barons arrived in Minnesota to grab the last vestiges of this high-in-demand species. By 1875 logging was big business, due to the abundance of trees, expanding rail system, and network of waterways extending all the way to the Gulf of Mexico."
http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/forestry/anniversary/peaklogging.html

The stories about Paul Bunyan say that he was a lumberjack during that period, so is this scientific proof that Paul Bunyan was a real person?

Old Paul was a bad dude!
 
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joshua 1 9

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Evidence for Paul Bunyan:
Evidence that atheists are unwilling to accept the truth. What I do not understand is that God takes responsibility for hardening the heart of Pharaoh: "I will harden his heart". He is the one that gives people over to a reprobate mind. "just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind"

Acts 28:27
FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL, AND WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR, AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES; OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT SEE WITH THEIR EYES, AND HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, AND I WOULD HEAL THEM."'
 
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joshua 1 9

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How could a flood that covered mountains thousands of feet tall not cover nearly the entire Earth?
The proper translation is that the High Hills were covered. Current belief is that Eden is still underwater, in the Persian Gulf. We know that 15,000 years ago the Persian Gulf was dry land. So the theory is there was a land damn holding the water back and then that land damn failed and the area flooded back in the days of Noah.

Of course even though Noah was a real person and Noah's flood was a real flood. Still when you have an allegory then the story has to be told in a way that the truths are universal and apply under a variety of situations and circumstances. That is what story telling is all about. So that each individual can apply the universal truth of the story to their own lives.
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