Sunrise, Sunset: A Question for Flat-Earthers

[Freodin]

Lol. So you propose I do an experiment. Then I propose you do the same experiment, making it more accurate for your ball-Earth, which would show inadequacies in your ball-Earth model. Then you explain said experiment won't work due to scale? Lol. Why propose I do it in the first place?

You didn't understand the point of the experiment in the first place.

Would you listen if I explained?
Hey, why not. What do I have to lose?

You started with the question why the sun doesn't pull the water away from the earth.
Let's look at the forces involved here.

There is a gravitational pull on every object with mass. A "force" will result in the acceleration of an object... proportional to its mass.
So the sun excerts a force on both the dirt-earth, as well as the water layer on earth. (And the humans, and the birds and the clouds and everything else.)

Let's assume for simplicities sake that there no other massive bodies around... only the sun and the earth. So both the water and the earth are pulled towards the sun. Equally. There is no additional force that would pull the water away from the earth.

Quite the opposite, in fact. Earth itself has a mass, excerts a gravitational pull, and thus pulls the water down to the ground, keeping the whole system together.

Now in this experiment with the wet ball the earth on which we are standing represents the sun. The ball represents the earth, the water the oceans.
If you drop the wet ball, the earth will pull both the ball and the water down, with the same effects. They will fall down together.

There are limits. If you hold on to the ball, it will not fall, but the water will still drop down. This is because you, by holding it, are excerting a force onto the ball... but you are not holding the water.

With the real earth, the real oceans and the real sun, there is no one holding the earth, but not the oceans.

There is also the air resistence. It can result in the lighter and more flexible water to fall a little slower than the ball.
But with the real earth, oceans and sun, there is no air resistence.

And finally, there is the issue of scale.
The sun has about 333,000 times the mass of the earth. The earth has about 12 x 10^24 times the mass of a soccer ball. The ball is also, in relation, a lot closer to the earth than the earth is to the sun. In relation, the gravitational pull of the earth on the ball - and the water - is a lot higher than the pull of the sun on the earth system.

Why should those who believe the Earth is flat be the only ones who have to conduct experiments, when Globalists can just say "it doesn't work due to scale" for the experiments that disprove their theory? Lol.

In order to understand the results of an experiment, you need to understand the components. You need to understand all the things involved.

If scale is a problem, you need to understand why. I don't use "scale" as some magic excuse not to answer your questions. Scale is important.

Another experiment. Take a matchbox toy truck. Transfer it from your left hand to your right. Now do the same with the next 12-wheeler truck on the highway.

Why should I believe that you can lift a toy truck, when you cannot do that to a real 40-tonner? Maybe because of SCALE? That the real truck is a lot bigger and heavier in relation to the toy?
So you cannot lift the real truck. Why should I believe that you can use a crane to lift it? Maybe because of SCALE? Because the crane is capable of excerting a lot more force than a single human can?

Scale is important.

I do understand that (small) scale is the reason that some water droplets stick to the bottom of the ball, but it was you who proposed this as some justification for your ball-Earth theory, where magic gravity (not molecular forces) is said to produce the tides, yet not suck the waters up into space.

Force is force. The mechanisms will differ, but the results will be the same.
But again you underestimate the effects of scale.
The gravitational pull of the earth on a 1g droplet of water is 0.0098 N. The gravitational pull of a ball on that same droplet is a tiny tiny fraction of that. (Using the values I mentioned above: 1 to 12 x 10^24).

You really need to understand the scales involved. You can lift a toy truck. You still cannot throw the toy truck to the top of a skyscraper. The moon excerts enough force on the ocean water to raise the tides a few meter. But it doesn't have enough force to "suck the waters up into space".

 

[tas8831]

Notice the shadow cast onto a flat moon from a circular object match, while one cast onto a globe do not....... This is one everybody can test in their own homes.... I suggest people do so.....

We get - in addition to not understanding evolution or genetics, you are also a flat earther...

I saw a youtube video with "evidence" that the sun is actually so close to the earth that it is sometimes in front of clouds. It was all very serious and sciency, with the host interviewing someone claiming to have worked at some kind of tech firm or something.
They truly believed that optical illusions proved their 'woke' fantasy.

 

[tas8831]

I think the sun works something like the diagram below.

View attachment 237460

I just posted the one of the first diagrams I could google.

As the ancients often showed the firmament as being dome shaped, it would not surprise me if the sun did rise and fall (getting closer to Earth in the Southern Summer, and further from Earth in the Northern Summer). Note the speed of the sun would also need to change between Summer and Winter.

Ah... the ancients...

How could they have been wrong about anything?

 

[Chinchilla]

We get - in addition to not understanding evolution or genetics, you are also a flat earther...

I saw a youtube video with "evidence" that the sun is actually so close to the earth that it is sometimes in front of clouds. It was all very serious and sciency, with the host interviewing someone claiming to have worked at some kind of tech firm or something.
They truly believed that optical illusions proved their 'woke' fantasy.

Not optical illusion but simply math , if Sun was 93M miles away then all the sunlight comming to earth would be pararel , only with close sun you can get sunlight spread in multiple directions through clouds .

 

[Freodin]

Not optical illusion but simply math , if Sun was 93M miles away then all the sunlight comming to earth would be pararel , only with close sun you can get sunlight spread in multiple directions through clouds .

Wasn't "perspective" one of the Flat Earther's war cry?

Have you ever looked along a train track? How it converges in the distance?

Only if the tracks really run together in close distance can you see this apparent spreading! Parallel railroad tracks are a Jesuit lie!

 

[tas8831]

It's only as magic as the magic in your Ball-Earth gravity.

But I do agree. Ball-Earth gravity is strong enough to keep the Earth orbiting the Sun, and strong enough to create the tides, but not strong enough to pull the oceans clean away?

LOL!

Wow...

What causes us to stay on the earth in a flat earth fantasy?

I have read that flat earthers claim that it is because the flat earth is constantly accelerating at 1g up.

 

[Chinchilla]

Wasn't "perspective" one of the Flat Earther's war cry?

Have you ever looked along a train track? How it converges in the distance?

Only if the tracks really run together in close distance can you see this apparent spreading! Parallel railroad tracks are a Jesuit lie!

Perspective is fine , same can be used for moon and it's craters upside down , you wouldn't see upside down craters in south if moon was such far away .

 

[tas8831]

Not optical illusion but simply math , if Sun was 93M miles away then all the sunlight comming to earth would be pararel , only with close sun you can get sunlight spread in multiple directions through clouds .

Wow, so simple. Why didn't I just ignore basic optics like reflection and refraction?

 

[Chinchilla]

Wow, so simple. Why didn't I just ignore basic optics like reflection and refraction?

You will perhaps enjoy this video

 

[tas8831]

Perspective is fine , same can be used for moon and it's craters upside down , you wouldn't see upside down craters in south if moon was such far away .

Years ago, I saw a show about Atlantis, and some fool declared that the destruction of Atlantis was caused when the crust of the earth shifted "down" - he used a chart to show what he meant, and "down" on this chart was south.

Sounds like you use the same logic.

 

[Freodin]

Perspective is fine , same can be used for moon and it's craters upside down , you wouldn't see upside down craters in south if moon was such far away .

Really? Why?

Consider that on the globe, the people on the southern hemisphere are indeed "upside down" in relation to the northerners. If you stand on your head, everything you see will appear to be upside down... regardless of how far away it is.

 

[tas8831]

You will perhaps enjoy this video

I saw this comment there:

You can't measure what you are trying to measure with the tools you are using. Just take a simple right triangle. Assume the Sun is directly overhead at some point on the globe and near the horizon at a different point on the globe. Assume a distance between the points of 3959 miles, and this will be the base of the triangle. The acute angle of that right triangle is only 0.00244 degrees for a 93 million mile distance to the Sun. The angle is 0.0057 degrees for a 40 million mile distance, and only 0.23 degrees for one million miles. Those are the angle differences you are trying to measure, using time and date data that is rounded to two decimal places. You further compound the error by approximating. On top of that, you are making this approximation for both locations. You may as well try to measure the diameter of a golf ball using an ungraduated yard stick!​

And decided not to waste my time with yet another Dunning-Kruger Effect flat earth nutcase.
You accept such garbage at face value because you want to, not because you think they actually made a good case.

Heres a better video:

 

[Steve Petersen]

LOL!

Wow...

What causes us to stay on the earth in a flat earth fantasy?

I have read that flat earthers claim that it is because the flat earth is constantly accelerating at 1g up.

Wonder when we hit the speed of light?

 

[Freodin]

Wonder when we hit the speed of light?

Most Flat Earthers have exchanged alternative physical explanations for observations for denying classical physics at all. So they don't have to bother with explaining such things.

 

[Steve Petersen]

F=G(m1m2/r2)
where:

F is the force between the masses;
G is the gravitational constant (6.674×10−11 N · (m/kg)2);
m1 is the first mass;
m2 is the second mass;
r is the distance between the centers of the masses.

 

[46AND2]

Well, how about Flat-Earth-Gravity? It's every bit as mysterious and magical as Ball-Earth-Gravity, only, it works on the Flat Earth.

Why is the the gravity exerted on the sun in a different direction than the gravity exerted on things on earth? And can you come up with mathematical formulas which consistently describe your gravity like we have done for our gravity?

 

[SeventyOne]

LOL!

Wow...

What causes us to stay on the earth in a flat earth fantasy?

I have read that flat earthers claim that it is because the flat earth is constantly accelerating at 1g up.

That's something put out by the Flat Earth Society, which has operated as a disinformation agent. They aren't a viable source of accurate FE thought.

 

[tas8831]

You didn't understand the point of the experiment in the first place.

Would you listen if I explained?
Hey, why not. What do I have to lose?

You started with the question why the sun doesn't pull the water away from the earth.
Let's look at the forces involved here.

There is a gravitational pull on every object with mass. A "force" will result in the acceleration of an object... proportional to its mass.
So the sun excerts a force on both the dirt-earth, as well as the water layer on earth. (And the humans, and the birds and the clouds and everything else.)

Let's assume for simplicities sake that there no other massive bodies around... only the sun and the earth. So both the water and the earth are pulled towards the sun. Equally. There is no additional force that would pull the water away from the earth.

Quite the opposite, in fact. Earth itself has a mass, excerts a gravitational pull, and thus pulls the water down to the ground, keeping the whole system together.

Now in this experiment with the wet ball the earth on which we are standing represents the sun. The ball represents the earth, the water the oceans.
If you drop the wet ball, the earth will pull both the ball and the water down, with the same effects. They will fall down together.

There are limits. If you hold on to the ball, it will not fall, but the water will still drop down. This is because you, by holding it, are excerting a force onto the ball... but you are not holding the water.

With the real earth, the real oceans and the real sun, there is no one holding the earth, but not the oceans.

There is also the air resistence. It can result in the lighter and more flexible water to fall a little slower than the ball.
But with the real earth, oceans and sun, there is no air resistence.

And finally, there is the issue of scale.
The sun has about 333,000 times the mass of the earth. The earth has about 12 x 10^24 times the mass of a soccer ball. The ball is also, in relation, a lot closer to the earth than the earth is to the sun. In relation, the gravitational pull of the earth on the ball - and the water - is a lot higher than the pull of the sun on the earth system.


In order to understand the results of an experiment, you need to understand the components. You need to understand all the things involved.

If scale is a problem, you need to understand why. I don't use "scale" as some magic excuse not to answer your questions. Scale is important.

Another experiment. Take a matchbox toy truck. Transfer it from your left hand to your right. Now do the same with the next 12-wheeler truck on the highway.

Why should I believe that you can lift a toy truck, when you cannot do that to a real 40-tonner? Maybe because of SCALE? That the real truck is a lot bigger and heavier in relation to the toy?
So you cannot lift the real truck. Why should I believe that you can use a crane to lift it? Maybe because of SCALE? Because the crane is capable of excerting a lot more force than a single human can?

Scale is important.


Force is force. The mechanisms will differ, but the results will be the same.
But again you underestimate the effects of scale.
The gravitational pull of the earth on a 1g droplet of water is 0.0098 N. The gravitational pull of a ball on that same droplet is a tiny tiny fraction of that. (Using the values I mentioned above: 1 to 12 x 10^24).

You really need to understand the scales involved. You can lift a toy truck. You still cannot throw the toy truck to the top of a skyscraper. The moon excerts enough force on the ocean water to raise the tides a few meter. But it doesn't have enough force to "suck the waters up into space".

Excellent explanation.

The Sphinx's take on this reminds me of a flat earther I saw on another forum - while not discussing the same thing we are here, he did ask that if an airplane was really traveling at several hundred miles and hour, why don't we feel wind blowing on our faces? (yeah, he was not only a flat earther, YEC, anti-government type, he did not think we had ever gone into space and felt that the government is lying about flight, as well...).

 

[tas8831]

That's something put out by the Flat Earth Society, which has operated as a disinformation agent. They aren't a viable source of accurate FE thought.

Perhaps, but I have seen flat earthers use that argument.

 

[46AND2]

Excellent explanation.

The Sphinx's take on this reminds me of a flat earther I saw on another forum - while not discussing the same thing we are here, he did ask that if an airplane was really traveling at several hundred miles and hour, why don't we feel wind blowing on our faces? (yeah, he was not only a flat earther, YEC, anti-government type, he did not think we had ever gone into space and felt that the government is lying about flight, as well...).

Duct tape him to the outside of a 747...