Sunday Sabbath?

D.W. · Apr 14, 2005

Shalom Spawn,

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

No it means that unless you have more than SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS. The Pharisees believed that is what was THEIR actions, THEIR efforts that saved them. Read what else Christ said of the pharisees - pit of vipers, hypocrties ( like 14 times), they walk in the flesh, etc. If you think Christ was impressed in any way with the pharisees, I have to wonder what translation of the bible you are using...

The translation that I am using does not have self- Righteousness written in that verse.

Youre imposing what you would like to see there. I dont know the extent of your prejudice but self is not written there. It says your RIGHTEOUSNESS SHOULD EXCEED THEIR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Yes he called those that were doing wrong to set them straight.

[Quote By DAN] If you would rather follow false gods and Idols, thats up to you, but the Messiah said to observe what the Pharisees teach. [/Quote]

[Quote BY SPAWN]where does he say this? Lets not forget that the PHARISEES sought his death for not keeping the Sabbath.[/Quote]

You printed the verses right below your question, but I will highlight it if it is hard to see.

Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

They say and do not, that is why he called them hypocrites.
As for the other scriptures that you posted, I did not say that all Pharisees were righteous people, But look at Mathew 23:3 Again. It says to do what they tell you to do. Dont do what they do because they tell you the right way but they do not follow it themselves. Much the same way preachers do today. They tell you not to steal and yet they steal, they tell you not to fornicate and yet they fornicate. The list goes on and on. People are people, wrong ones and right ones.

Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

G-d Bless,

Dan

Spawn · Apr 14, 2005

DW - you want to stop at Mat5:20 and hold up that verse to say that the Pharisees were righteous in the eyes of God and you just cant do that. See cause God does not end with that thought. He goes on til the end of chapter 7 explaining what he meant by the righteousness of the pharisees. He demonstrates how their OBSERVANCES of the law made the of no effect. The pharisee were not God righteous - they were SELF righteous. They had how to be observant down to a science - and it was far from pleasing to God as Mat5-7 demonstrates.

FURTHER - I notice that you dodge all the verses I posted rejecting the righteousness of the pharisees.

Mat 23:2 saying, `On the seat of Moses sat down the scribes and the Pharisees;
Mat 23:3 all, then, as much as they may say to you to observe, observe and do, but according to their works do not, for they say, and do not;
Mat 23:4 for they bind together burdens heavy and grievous to be borne, and lay upon the shoulders of men, but with their finger they will not move them.
Mat 23:5 `And all their works they do to be seen by men, and they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the fringes of their garments,
Mat 23:6 they love also the chief couches in the supper, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
Mat 23:7 and the salutations in the market-places, and to be called by men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

The THEY is this passage is the pharisees. Your own verses show that they were not righteous in Gods eyes but SELF-righteous. He tells us to do what they say, just not HOW they say to do it. Remember the Sabbath - but how they remember it? NOPE.

Mat 15:2 `Wherefore do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they do not wash their hands when they may eat bread.'
Mat 15:3 And he answering said to them, `Wherefore also do ye transgress the command of God because of your tradition?

The pharisees have replaced the observance of the law with the observance of tradition. If you want to be bound up in keeping traditions instead of the law - be my guest, just dont criticize others for not doing as the pharisees did.

Spawn · Apr 14, 2005

Pharisees
Separatists (Heb. persahin, from parash, to separate). They were probably the successors of the Assideans (i.e., the pious), a party that originated in the time of Antiochus Epiphanes in revolt against his heathenizing policy. The first mention of them is in a description by Josephus of the three sects or schools into which the Jews were divided (145 B.C.). The other two sects were the Essenes and the Sadducees. In the time of our Lord they were the popular party (Joh_7:48). They were extremely accurate and minute in all matters appertaining to the law of Moses (Mat_9:14; Mat_23:15; Luk_11:39; Luk_18:12). Paul, when brought before the council of Jerusalem, professed himself a Pharisee (Act_23:6-8; Act_26:4, Act_26:5).
There was much that was sound in their creed, yet their system of religion was a form and nothing more. Theirs was a very lax morality (Mat_5:20; Mat_15:4, Mat_15:8; Mat_23:3, Mat_23:14, Mat_23:23, Mat_23:25; Joh_8:7). On the first notice of them in the New Testament (Mat_3:7), they are ranked by our Lord with the Sadducees as a generation of vipers. They were noted for their self-righteousness and their pride (Mat_9:11; Luk_7:39; Luk_18:11, Luk_18:12). They were frequently rebuked by our Lord (Mat_12:39; Mat_16:1-4).
From the very beginning of his ministry the Pharisees showed themselves bitter and persistent enemies of our Lord. They could not bear his doctrines, and they sought by every means to destroy his influence among the people.

D.W. · Apr 15, 2005

Spawn said:
DW - you want to stop at Mat5:20 and hold up that verse to say that the Pharisees were righteous in the <A title="àTÃñàp" style="COLOR: #65b45c; TEXT-DECORATION: underline" href="ÆÈppòS¢äÆpôWëpð9Wø r"À9W¢ø " target=_blank>eyes of God and you just cant do that. See cause God does not end with that thought. He goes on til the end of chapter 7 explaining what he meant by the righteousness of the pharisees. He demonstrates how their OBSERVANCES of the law made the of no effect. The pharisee were not God righteous - they were SELF righteous. They had how to be observant down to a science - and it was far from pleasing to God as Mat5-7 demonstrates.

FURTHER - I notice that you dodge all the verses I posted rejecting the righteousness of the pharisees.

Mat 23:2 saying, `On the seat of Moses sat down the scribes and the Pharisees;
Mat 23:3 all, then, as much as they may say to you to observe, observe and do, but according to their works do not, for they say, and do not;
Mat 23:4 for they bind together burdens heavy and grievous to be borne, and lay upon the shoulders of men, but with their finger they will not move them.
Mat 23:5 `And all their works they do to be seen by men, and they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the fringes of their garments,
Mat 23:6 they <A title="Best Love" style="COLOR: #65b45c; TEXT-DECORATION: underline" href="http://69.42.87.214/cgi-bin/ezlclk.fcgi?id=9759" target=_blank>love also the chief couches in the supper, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
Mat 23:7 and the salutations in the market-places, and to be called by men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

The THEY is this passage is the pharisees. Your own verses show that they were not righteous in Gods eyes but SELF-righteous. He tells us to do what they say, just not HOW they say to do it. Remember the Sabbath - but how they remember it? NOPE.

Mat 15:2 `Wherefore do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they do not wash their hands when they may eat bread.'
Mat 15:3 And he answering said to them, `Wherefore also do ye transgress the command of God because of your tradition?

The pharisees have replaced the observance of the law with the observance of tradition. If you want to be bound up in keeping traditions instead of the law - be my guest, just dont criticize others for not doing as the pharisees did.

Shalom Spawn,

No the Pharisees that the Christ was talking about did not do the things that they knew to do. I am not dodging any verses. It is you who wish to ignore a commandment from the Christ and take verses where he is chastising a group of people and try as man always does to make his own laws instead of those that are written very plainly. The Pharisees have not replaced the observance of the Law. Yeshua himself obeyed the Laws that he was chastising the people for not obeying. The only people of the time that only followed the written Law was the Saducees, a group whom Yeshua failed to mention in the commandment. (Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.) The Pharisees followed the Oral Traditions as well as the Tanach. Whether you or others do not want to follow this explicit commandment is up to you, but quit trying to tell others that it is not so. It is written very plainly for us to obey. Do not be like the Pharisees of his day, a hypocrite. Be doers of the word and not forgetful hearers as James wrote in James 1:25.
It is not I who criticize, but it is you who are telling the people that we are wrong for listening to what the Messiah of G-d said regarding the Laws. Instead of trying to analyze those who follow the Law, try doing it.

G-d Bless,

Dan

Spawn · Apr 15, 2005

D.W. said:
Shalom Spawn,

No the Pharisees that the Christ was talking about did not do the things that they knew to do.

No where in scriptures does Christ differentiate between good pharisees and bad pharisees - he just says PHARISEES and usually just before calling them something that seems rude like VIPERS.

I am not dodging any verses.

No i guess you are not. Instead you have compartmentalized in your mind that Christ was really talking about two different groups of pharisees even though there is nothing written in scriptures to even imply that - but hey - if it fits your doctrines, go right ahead and twist scripture all you want! You wont be the first to do it. lol

It is you who wish to ignore a commandment from the Christ and take verses where he is chastising a group of people and try as man always does to make his own laws instead of those that are written very plainly.

I just reference for you 2 and half chapters of Matthew where Christ points out how the pharisees have made the law of no effect by their ObSeRvAnCeS - NOT of the law, but of TALMUD. Christ does tell is to observe the law and in Matthew Chapters 5-7 he explains and expounds upon the law. Take a look and see what He has to say.

The Pharisees have not replaced the observance of the Law. Yeshua himself obeyed the Laws that he was chastising the people for not obeying.

Joh 5:16 And because of this, the Jews persecuted Jesus and lusted to kill Him, because He did these things on a sabbath.
Joh 5:18 Because of this, therefore, the Jews lusted the more to kill Him, for not only did He break the sabbath, but also called God His own Father, making Himself equal to God.

Christ did obey the Law - but He did not do it by outward observances - He did it in spirit and truth.

The only people of the time that only followed the written Law was the Saducees, a group whom Yeshua failed to mention in the commandment.

the Saducees ignored the law all together - they were Hellinistc Jews - Jews in name only who were more greek than Jew in their actions and morals. *sigh* you need to read a bit of history and learn about the world in the times of Christ. The Saducees were the rich families who were in power because the cooperated with the greeks and then the romans. They were NOT law observers.

(Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.)

Yes observe as Christ had already explained in Matthew chapters 5-7. NOT in the ways of the Pharisees who were more interested in their traditions than in the word of God. Funny to that they set themselves in the place of Moses . . . .

The Pharisees followed the Oral Traditions as well as the Tanach.

Funny that you just LOVE the oral traditions of the Pharisees but utterly reject the oral traditions of BeLiEvErS as being man made. Lol

Whether you or others do not want to follow this explicit commandment is up to you, but quit trying to tell others that it is not so. [/qoute] Ive already said that you can do as your like. lol

It is written very plainly for us to obey. Do not be like the Pharisees of his day, a hypocrite.

Click to expand...

Now youre on the right track : pharisee = hypocrite.

Be doers of the word and not forgetful hearers as James wrote in James 1:25.
It is not I who criticize, but it is you who are telling the people that we are wrong for listening to what the Messiah of G-d said regarding the Laws.

Click to expand...

when have I told people NOT to do as Christ said? I challenge you to produce the evidence for this claim - or RETRACT IT.

Instead of trying to analyze those who follow the Law, try doing it.

Click to expand...

Rom 3:19 And we have known that as many things as the law saith, to those in the law it doth speak, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may come under judgment to God;
Rom 3:20 wherefore by works of law shall no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 And now apart from law hath the righteousness of God been manifested, testified to by the law and the prophets,
Rom 3:22 and the righteousness of God is through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, --for there is no difference,
Rom 3:23 for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God--
Rom 3:24 being declared righteous freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Priase GOD that I do not have to pretend observance of the law to be righteous in His Eyes

JustinWindsor · Apr 15, 2005

The only way our righteousness will exceed that of the Pharisees (Matt 5:20) is if it is Christ's imputed righteousness which becomes ours. With the gift of faith comes Christ's righteousness imputed upon us, just as our sin becomes imputed on to Him, the sin which he thereby bore at the cross.

This is the only way to properly understand and interpret this verse through the lens of the Apostles. They said it themselves. They didn't fully understand all of what Christ said, until after the cross, until after the arrival of the Holy Spirit as counsellor and guide.

We have God's gift of the Apostolic teaching from Romans to 3rd John to give us a lens through which to view and understand the Law and the Prophets, the Gospels and the Revelation. Just as we have the entire OT to help us understand the Character and nature of God's love, wrath, sovereignty, and through which to understand God's providence throughout the gospel accounts, we have the Epistles and Letters to help us understand the different Covenants and their place today.

Exodus 31: 12-18;

"The LORD spoke to Moses, saying, "But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, 'You shall surely observe My sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you.

Therefore you are to observe the sabbath, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people.

For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the LORD; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death.

'So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.'

"It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed." When He had finished speaking with him upon Mount Sinai, He gave Moses the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written by the finger of God."

Matt 11 28-30

"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke (as opposed to the yoke of the Written Law) upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

Col 2:16,17

"Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day -- things which were a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ."

See also Galatians chapters 3 and 4, as well as Hebrews 10:1-10.

Sabbath observations, including the seventh day rest, was a sign of the Old Covenant between God and the Israelite nation. This covenant has been abolished, having been nailed to the cross. It stands today only as a ministry of condemnation to those who will not believe. The Sabbath day is to understood by a Christian as something which foreshadowed what was to come. The Sabbath rest of Christ. Rest from the works of the Sinaiic (Old) Covenant.

It is not a day to be observed as a standard or rule or test. This issue was contentious in the early Church as well ... as well-meaning Christians debated the issue then. Paul's answer is recorded above in Col 2:16,17 and below in Romans 14:6

"He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God."

Today is the Lord's day. Every day is. And this is how we remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy; Through faith alone in Jesus Christ (Heb 4;3). The faith through which we rest from our works and rest in His (Rom 4:5, Heb. 4:10).

Christ is our Sabbath. Praise the LORD!

May God Bless.

jonwsj · Apr 15, 2005

silkcity said:
Jesus sanctified a day, and not an object, to remember him for a reason. time cannot be destroyed. Jesus didn't forget anything in the Law. On the 7th day God rested. The 24 hour day is not man made. God put the earth to spin on it's axis. so therefore, it's divine. there's no adjusting here. adjusting time is saying that the day begins at 12:00 midnight. nowhere in the bible does it say that. genesis 1 states for everyday 'and the evening and the morning were the -- day.' your argument makes sense if we start a day, or in this case the sabbath at 12:00 am, as man has made it. here its a different time than in another part of the world. however, no matter where you are on this planet, when the sun sets. at that place an old day ends and a new day begins. God is perfect and wise. He makes no mistakes.

The OT law was given at a time where there were no airplanes that could take people across the international date line on Friday evening and cause a person to miss the Sabbath completely. The Sabbath command only makes sense when confined to the nation of Israel, where sundown was at the same time basically anywhere in the nation. For such a serious sin as Sabbath breaking, we need to take into consideration global travel. A businessman who flies from LA to New York on a Sunday automatically loses 3 hours of his 24-hour "Sabbath". Does he extend his Sabbath an extra 3 hours in the new time zone? What does he do when he returns? What about the businessman who travels to Japan one week, returns the next, back and forth? Which sabbath should he keep? It may be impossible for him to work six 24-hour days and rest one day each week and be consistent. Can anyone judge him for working on _their_ Sabbath? How should we enact the death penalty for him? (Sabbath-breaking is a capital crime according to OT law.)

What I'm saying is that in the global economy everyone ends up making their own Sabbath, if they observe it at all. So it's a man-made thing now. In OT Israel they simply didn't have all these problems. Few people ever even traveled out of Israel. You couldn't stray too far from Jerusalem or you'd miss some sacrifices.

Yes I believe "let each be convinced in his own mind." I'm just defending why I no longer observe a Sabbath. (I used to be a strict-Sunday-Sabbatarian. Many years of study and reflection have convinced me otherwise.)

--Jon

Windmill · Apr 15, 2005

biblelighthouse said:
Some Christians believe the Sabbath isn't for Christians.

Some Christians believe the Christian Sabbath is Saturday.

Some Christians beleive the Christian Sabbath is Sunday.

What do you think?

O.O So many posts! I'll just my one in here, sorry if I'm getting in the way of a debate!

Christian sabbath = still Saturday.

"The seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God." Exodus 20:10. "

Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish aught from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God." Deuteronomy 4:2.

There. Sabbath = 7th day 7th day = Saturday.

JustinWindsor · Apr 15, 2005

Please have another look at post #66, in particular the Scriptures presented.

May God Bless.

Windmill · Apr 15, 2005

I'll do that... once I get back from church

silkcity · Apr 15, 2005

Spawn said:
where does the bible say that Jesus sanctified any day?

seriously bro, search the Scripture. Genesis 2.3

silkcity · Apr 15, 2005

JustinWindsor said:
The only way our righteousness will exceed that of the Pharisees (Matt 5:20) is if it is Christ's imputed righteousness which becomes ours. With the gift of faith comes Christ's righteousness imputed upon us, just as our sin becomes imputed on to Him, the sin which he thereby bore at the cross.

This is the only way to properly understand and interpret this verse through the lens of the Apostles. They said it themselves. They didn't fully understand all of what Christ said, until after the cross, until after the arrival of the Holy Spirit as counsellor and guide.

We have God's gift of the Apostolic teaching from Romans to 3rd John to give us a lens through which to view and understand the Law and the Prophets, the Gospels and the Revelation. Just as we have the entire OT to help us understand the Character and nature of God's love, wrath, sovereignty, and through which to understand God's providence throughout the gospel accounts, we have the Epistles and Letters to help us understand the different Covenants and their place today.

Exodus 31: 12-18;

"The LORD spoke to Moses, saying, "But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, 'You shall surely observe My sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you.

Therefore you are to observe the sabbath, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people.

For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the LORD; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death.

'So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.'

"It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed." When He had finished speaking with him upon Mount Sinai, He gave Moses the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written by the finger of God."

Matt 11 28-30

"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke (as opposed to the yoke of the Written Law) upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

Col 2:16,17

"Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day -- things which were a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ."

See also Galatians chapters 3 and 4, as well as Hebrews 10:1-10.

Sabbath observations, including the seventh day rest, was a sign of the Old Covenant between God and the Israelite nation. This covenant has been abolished, having been nailed to the cross. It stands today only as a ministry of condemnation to those who will not believe. The Sabbath day is to understood by a Christian as something which foreshadowed what was to come. The Sabbath rest of Christ. Rest from the works of the Sinaiic (Old) Covenant.

It is not a day to be observed as a standard or rule or test. This issue was contentious in the early Church as well ... as well-meaning Christians debated the issue then. Paul's answer is recorded above in Col 2:16,17 and below in Romans 14:6

"He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God."

Today is the Lord's day. Every day is. And this is how we remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy; Through faith alone in Jesus Christ (Heb 4;3). The faith through which we rest from our works and rest in His (Rom 4:5, Heb. 4:10).

Christ is our Sabbath. Praise the LORD!

May God Bless.

what version is your bible, cause in mine, says, in Col. 2.16,17, sabbaths, plural. just as peter said. some would twist the word for their own destruction. you guys, not just you justin, should really take some time to read the old testament. if the 7th day of creation, which Jesus sanctified, is discarded, then what about the rest of creation.
1. Was the 7th day Sabbath made before or after sin.
2. Were the feasts and sacrifices and sabbaths (other rests) made before or after sin. (ground wheat, wine, pentacost, lamb...etc.)
3. Exodus 20.8. How can you remember something that never existed. If God said 'Remember' it's because what ever he was commanding must have been done before. Possibly on the 7th day of the creation, as far as earth goes?
4. There were no Isrealites in the creation. Israel (Jacob) had not been born yet. so why do so many people say that the Sabbath pertains only to the Jews.
5. If we are forgiven, we are no longer under the law. If we sin God must judge us. How do we know that we've sinned. God's Commandments. God uses his Law to judge humans. If it was only created on Mt. Sinai then how could he have judged and condemned Adam, Cain, the people before the Flood, Sodom and Gomorra...etc, all before the Mt. Sinai event?
6. Jesus is eternal. If he is the God's Law in person, then the Law must also be eternal.
7. The bible speaks of a Sunday Sabbath?

JustinWindsor · Apr 15, 2005

So...those verses don't mean what they say?

D.W. · Apr 15, 2005

Shalom,

Quote]No where in scriptures does Christ differentiate between good pharisees and bad pharisees - he just says PHARISEES and usually just before calling them something that seems rude like VIPERS. [/Quote]

Im going to go back to these verses time and time again until you recognize that the Christ said to do everything that the Pharisees tell you to observe. You keep going on about how bad they are and how we shouldnt listen to them. Christ said different, no matter how much you wish to ignore what he said.

There must have been some good or the Messiah would not have bothered to tell us to do what they say!

Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

I am not dodging any verses.

No i guess you are not. Instead you have compartmentalized in your mind that Christ was really talking about two different groups of pharisees even though there is nothing written in scriptures to even imply that - but hey - if it fits your doctrines, go right ahead and twist scripture all you want! You wont be the first to do it. Lol

Laugh out loud at yourself, you keep saying that I am talking about two different sets of Pharisees when I never once said such a thing. It is not my doctrine but it is the words of the Christ that you wish to change or ignore, but his words are still there. Here Ill post them again. Believe it Christ said it!

Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

I just reference for you 2 and half chapters of Matthew where Christ points out how the pharisees have made the law of no effect by their ObSeRvAnCeS - NOT of the law, but of TALMUD. Christ does tell is to observe the law and in Matthew Chapters 5-7 he explains and expounds upon the law. Take a look and see what He has to say.

The reference that you gave were very good ones if I was disputing that the Christ had issues about the way the Pharisees were acting, but I am not disputing that except in your mind as a way to get away from what the Messiah said.

Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Joh 5:16 And because of this, the Jews persecuted Jesus and lusted to kill Him, because He did these things on a sabbath.

Joh 5:18 Because of this, therefore, the Jews lusted the more to kill Him, for not only did He break the sabbath, but also called God His own Father, making Himself equal to God.

Christ did obey the Law - but He did not do it by outward observances - He did it in spirit and truth.

Those are good scriptures. The Christ goes on to tell them he is only doing what G-d does and allows him to do also. Lets go all of the way to the end of his speech and see what he says.

John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

John 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

It is not against the Law to Heal On The Sabbath, and is practiced in the Jewish faith. Jesus knew this and so did the others that knew the

Yes observe as Christ had already explained in Matthew chapters 5-7. NOT in the ways of the Pharisees who were more interested in their traditions than in the word of God. Funny to that they set themselves in the place of Moses . . . .

Not the ways but the Laws that they are able to teach.. It had nothing to do with them being more interested in there traditions, it had more to do with the Laws and traditions that they were teaching and not following them thereselfs. Nothing funny about them sitting in Moses seat. Mosses taught the Laws from G-d.

(Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.)

The Pharisees followed the Oral Traditions as well as the Tanach.

Funny that you just LOVE the oral traditions of the Pharisees but utterly reject the oral traditions of BeLiEvErS as being man made. Lol

Im not sure what you mean. Its an oxy moron.

This is what I said.

Be doers of the word and not forgetful hearers as James wrote in James 1:25.

It is not I who criticize, but it is you who are telling the people that we are wrong for listening to what the Messiah of G-d said regarding the Laws.

when have I told people NOT to do as Christ said? I challenge you to produce the evidence for this claim - or RETRACT IT.

You said this: You give the Sabbath full honour by putting it in its proper place. Further, I do not take instructions on how to worship God from Pharisees or their books.

Christ said this:

Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Priase GOD that I do not have to pretend observance of the law to be righteous in His Eyes

Nor do I say that he is not saying something that is in front of my face.

Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Luke 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

John 7:49 But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed.

Now as conserning the Sabbath

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

Deu 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

Isa 56:1 Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.

Isa 56:2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.

Isa 56:3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.

Isa 56:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;

Isa 56:5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

Isa 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

Isa 56:7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

Isa 56:8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

G-d Bless,

Dan

__________________

Windmill · Apr 15, 2005

JustinWindsor said:
The only way our righteousness will exceed that of the Pharisees (Matt 5:20) is if it is Christ's imputed righteousness which becomes ours. With the gift of faith comes Christ's righteousness imputed upon us, just as our sin becomes imputed on to Him, the sin which he thereby bore at the cross.

This is the only way to properly understand and interpret this verse through the lens of the Apostles. They said it themselves. They didn't fully understand all of what Christ said, until after the cross, until after the arrival of the Holy Spirit as counsellor and guide.

We have God's gift of the Apostolic teaching from Romans to 3rd John to give us a lens through which to view and understand the Law and the Prophets, the Gospels and the Revelation. Just as we have the entire OT to help us understand the Character and nature of God's love, wrath, sovereignty, and through which to understand God's providence throughout the gospel accounts, we have the Epistles and Letters to help us understand the different Covenants and their place today.

Exodus 31: 12-18;

"The LORD spoke to Moses, saying, "But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, 'You shall surely observe My sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you.

Therefore you are to observe the sabbath, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people.

For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the LORD; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death.

'So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.'

"It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed." When He had finished speaking with him upon Mount Sinai, He gave Moses the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written by the finger of God."

Matt 11 28-30

"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke (as opposed to the yoke of the Written Law) upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

Col 2:16,17

"Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day -- things which were a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ."

See also Galatians chapters 3 and 4, as well as Hebrews 10:1-10.

Sabbath observations, including the seventh day rest, was a sign of the Old Covenant between God and the Israelite nation. This covenant has been abolished, having been nailed to the cross. It stands today only as a ministry of condemnation to those who will not believe. The Sabbath day is to understood by a Christian as something which foreshadowed what was to come. The Sabbath rest of Christ. Rest from the works of the Sinaiic (Old) Covenant.

It is not a day to be observed as a standard or rule or test. This issue was contentious in the early Church as well ... as well-meaning Christians debated the issue then. Paul's answer is recorded above in Col 2:16,17 and below in Romans 14:6

"He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God."

Today is the Lord's day. Every day is. And this is how we remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy; Through faith alone in Jesus Christ (Heb 4;3). The faith through which we rest from our works and rest in His (Rom 4:5, Heb. 4:10).

Christ is our Sabbath. Praise the LORD!

May God Bless.

A sign of the old covernent, is it?

May I remind you, the sabbath day was created before the jews exsisted? It was back in the time of Adam and Eve! Were they jews? NO! Jews did not exist.

Christ clearly taught that "the sabbath was made for man." Mark 2:27. The fact is that Adam was the only man in existence at the time God made the Sabbath. There were no Jews in the world for at least 2,000 years after creation. It could never have been made for them. Jesus used the term "man" in the generic sense, referring to mankind. The same word is used in connection with the institution of marriage which was also introduced at creation. Woman was made for man just as the Sabbath was made for man. Certainly no one believes that marriage was made only for the Jews.

Actually, the Sabbath could never be just a type or shadow of anything, for the simple reason that it was made before sin entered the human family. Certain shadows and typical observances were instituted as a result of sin and pointed forward to the deliverance from sin. Such were the sacrifices employed to symbolize the death of Jesus, the Lamb of God. There would have been no animal sacrifices had there been no sin. These offerings were abolished when Christ died on the cross, because the types had met their fulfillment (Matthew 27:51). But no shadow existed before sin entered this world; therefore, the Sabbath could not be included in the ceremonial law of types and shadows.

Paul referred to the temporary system of ordinances in Colossians 2:14-16 as being "against us" and "contrary to us." He tied it to the meat offerings, drink offerings, and yearly festivals of the law that was "blotted out." It is true he referred to sabbaths also in the text, but take careful note that he called them "sabbath days which are a shadow of things to come." Were some sabbath days blotted out at the cross? Yes, there were at least four yearly sabbaths which came on certain set days of the month, and they were nailed to the cross. They were shadows and required specified meat and drink offerings. All of these annual sabbaths are described in Leviticus 23:24-36, and then summarized in verses 37 and 38: "These are the feasts of the Lord, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day: beside the sabbaths of the Lord."

The Scripture plainly differentiates between the annual, shadowy sabbaths and the weekly "sabbaths of the Lord." The ceremonial sabbaths were blotted out at the cross; they had been added as a consequence of sin. But the Sabbath of the Ten-Commandment law had been hallowed before sin was introduced and was later incorporated into the great moral law written by the finger of God. It was eternal in its very nature.

****NOTE: Much of this was copied and pasted from another site, after I clearly read over it, to save me the trouble of actually having to write it out****

Wulff · Apr 15, 2005

My Sabbath is the Lord Jesus Christ and I take my rest in Him every day of the week.

Windmill · Apr 15, 2005

Wulff said:
My Sabbath is the Lord Jesus Christ and I take my rest in Him every day of the week.

well yes thats great to know (welcome, I'm basically new myself) but what is your definition of "rest"? Do you not work, or go to school, on any day of the week? Do you abstain from buying anything on all days of the week?

silkcity · Apr 17, 2005

JustinWindsor said:
So...those verses don't mean what they say?

They mean exactly what they say.

silkcity · Apr 17, 2005

one more thing, some people say that the ten commandments were abolished, or 'nailed to the cross' when Jesus died. which means that they were still in effect before He died. and breaking one of the was sin right. so then if Jesus broke the Sabbath, he did it before He died, obviously. which would mean He sinned according to some of you. and if He sinned then you and i are damned forever! at the cross, the ceremonial law was nailed, not the ten commandments, which are eternal, which existed before sin and will exist forever.

The Thadman · Apr 17, 2005

Even after Jesus died, Paul was making sacrifices in the Temple, and we also see in 1st John that Sin is the transgression of the Law (of Moses).

The Law of Moses says to keep the Sabbath from Friday, sundown, to Saturday, sundown. Why don't we?

Peace!
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