Suicide is a sin that cannot be forgiven?

[Archer_on_Fire]

I believe god judges fairly. If a mentally ill person takes their own life then i strongly believe god will judge them with compassion, just like i believe a baby who dies is held blameless and goes to heaven.

The church is bugger all help with mental illness. Not surprising since a lot think mentally ill people are possessed by demons. Come across that medievil nonsense myself.

How anyone can believe mental illness is caused by demons in this age I can’t understand.

 

[Archer_on_Fire]

No it doesn't. You simply do not want to see that grievous sin can separate a person from God. Sugar coating what the Bible says is not going to help them.

You don’t need to say something for it to be implied that is what you think. Most people are smart enough to read between the lines.

 

[Strong in Him]

Matthew 12:31 says, "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men."

But what is the means of being forgiven again for a believer?

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9).

How can you confess of your sins to GOD and be forgiven when you are dead? Your faith is over.

If you are very depressed, mentally ill, hearing voices which tell you to kill yourself, and/or are in such despair, suffering debt/illness or whatever and just want the pain to end, I doubt that you'd know, or care, whether suicide is regarded as a sin. You just want the pain to end and may even believe that other people will be better off without you.

That is the problem with isolating verses in the Bible. You can make the Bible say whatever you want it to say if you ignore the rest of Scripture.

That's not what I am going - I have posed a number of verses which speak of the compassion, tenderness and mercy of God.

Some folks say you cannot judge. But if they were to read the context or read other parts of the Bible, it says that we can judge.

No, we can judge in certain circumstances; we can discern between good teachers and bad, or sheep and wolves.
We cannot say that a person took their own life for x reason then God will regard that as a deliberate sin and judge them accordingly. It's not for us to say how, or if, God will judge or condemn.
Like I said, based on my knowledge of, and what Scripture says about, his compassion and love, I doubt he would condemn them. But it's not for me to know or say. I just know that God is love, merciful, compassionate and kind.

This is what you have done with Matthew 13:31.

I never even mentioned Matthew 13:31.

Murderers will have their part in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8).

BTW ~ ALL liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire. If the sin of lying is so bad whereby ALL liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire, then logic dictates that all murderers will have their part in the Lake of Fire, too. For murder is exceptionally even more evil of a sin.

So if someone is mentally ill and kills themselves while in that depressed, unstable, totally despairing state, the God who IS love and compassion will throw them in the lake of fire? They will have escaped this hellish life - none of which may have been their fault - for an even more hellish eternity?
I don't believe that you would treat a sick child of yours by punishing them even more; so why do you believe that God does that?

That doesn't sound like love to me.

 

[Archer_on_Fire]

Jesus can heal a person of depression. I am not going to argue with you over your own personal struggles. I am not permitted to make this discussion about any one particular person.

And if He chooses not to? Oh wait, it must be a personal failing on our part.

Smh.

 

[twin.spin]

So you believe babies that die are unsaved?
I believe they are saved by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

I believe what God's Word teaches which refutes your statement "A baby is blameless if it dies because they do not know about right or wrong yet.."

Romans 3:23
Ecclesiastes 7:20
Psalm 53: 2-3
Romans 3:19​

Jesus sums it up when he said (John 3:6), "flesh gives birth to flesh" and as the Psalmist acknowledges this when admitting (Psalm 51:5): "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

God clearly teaches in Romans 5:12,18a … there is no age exceptions as you're suggesting:

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin,
and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,​

What that "death" includes God spells out in Ephesians 2:1-3 which ends with:

All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our
flesh and following its desires and thoughts.
Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath."​

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I believe what God's Word teaches which refutes your statement "A baby is blameless if it dies because they do not know about right or wrong yet.."

Romans 3:23
Ecclesiastes 7:20
Psalm 53: 2-3
Romans 3:19​

Jesus sums it up when he said (John 3:6), "flesh gives birth to flesh" and as the Psalmist acknowledges this when admitting (Psalm 51:5): "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

God clearly teaches in Romans 5:12,18a … there is no age exceptions as you're suggesting:

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin,
and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,​

What that "death" includes God spells out in Ephesians 2:1-3 which ends with:

All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our
flesh and following its desires and thoughts.
Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath."​

So you believe babies who die are unsaved and that believing suicide victims are saved? Wow. All I can is.... wow.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If you are very depressed, mentally ill, hearing voices which tell you to kill yourself, and/or are in such despair, suffering debt/illness or whatever and just want the pain to end, I doubt that you'd know, or care, whether suicide is regarded as a sin. You just want the pain to end and may even believe that other people will be better off without you.



That's not what I am going - I have posed a number of verses which speak of the compassion, tenderness and mercy of God.



No, we can judge in certain circumstances; we can discern between good teachers and bad, or sheep and wolves.
We cannot say that a person took their own life for x reason then God will regard that as a deliberate sin and judge them accordingly. It's not for us to say how, or if, God will judge or condemn.
Like I said, based on my knowledge of, and what Scripture says about, his compassion and love, I doubt he would condemn them. But it's not for me to know or say. I just know that God is love, merciful, compassionate and kind.



I never even mentioned Matthew 13:31.



So if someone is mentally ill and kills themselves while in that depressed, unstable, totally despairing state, the God who IS love and compassion will throw them in the lake of fire? They will have escaped this hellish life - none of which may have been their fault - for an even more hellish eternity?
I don't believe that you would treat a sick child of yours by punishing them even more; so why do you believe that God does that?

That doesn't sound like love to me.

Look. I presented my verses. If you don't agree that is your choice. I don't think my posting the same verses or giving more examples of how believers considering suicide more because of the OSAS belief is going to convince you. Believe as you wish. Just know it is not something that is in the Bible. 1 John 3:15 refutes the idea that a person can commit suicide or self murder.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And where does The "bible" call it self murder?

It doesn't have to. Logic dictates that the taking of life (without God's approval) is murder. The taking of one's own life would be self murder. That is how it was understood before the 18th century.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Consider yourself lucky then. Clinical depression is hell. A moment of despair and clinical depression are two completely different things.

I don't believe in luck. I believe in GOD.

 

[Kenny'sID]

For some, it seems the only real problem is one cannot ask for forgiveness prior to the act of suicide, but did Christ not ask for forgiveness for those about to kill him, before the fact?

For me there is much more to it than that but to those who see it as cut and dried because of that one fact...it just isn't.

 

[A_Thinker]

LoveGodsWord I don't think that you understand Sin and I also don't think that your image of God is correct.

Sin requires three things:

1. the thought, desire, word, action, or omission must be seriously wrong or considered seriously wrong;
2. the sinner, must be mindful of the serious wrong;
3. the sinner must fully consent to it.

Can you even begin to explain how someone who is suffering depression so severe that they seriously consider ending their life could make rational decisions?

Can you explain how a God who is love and who loves us so much that He suffered and died for us could me so heartless as to hole such a person responsible for their actions?

God is not about laws, He is about grace. that is the whole key to salvation, if you missed that, all the Scripture in the Bible will do you no good at all.

I agree.

God will not lose His children due to suicide.

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that comes to me shall never hunger; and he that believes on me shall never thirst.

36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

37 All that the Father gives me shall come to me; and him that comes to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which sees the Son, and believes on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[Strong in Him]

Look. I presented my verses. If you don't agree that is your choice.

I don't agree with what you seem to be saying about the character of God, and there ARE verses to show us that.

I don't think my posting the same verses or giving more examples of how believers considering suicide more because of the OSAS belief is going to convince you.

I never mentioned OSAS and this thread is not about that.
Neither did I mention Matthew 13:31 - you may be mixing me up with someone else.

1 John 3:15 refutes the idea that a person can commit suicide or self murder.

1 John 3:15 doesn't mention suicide, and neither it, nor Scripture, address mental illness.

 

[Kenny'sID]

It doesn't have to. Logic dictates that the taking of life (without God's approval) is murder.

Logic dictates so many things here that you refuse to see. IOW if logic works in your favor, you claim it important, but if it doesn't you ignore it. So probably best, to just drop the logic (something that cannot be proven beyond doubt on either end) altogether from both sides and go by what is absolute fact and what is not.

It is a fact the Bible does not agree with what you claim suicide is, as in the "self murder". As a matter of fact also, the bible says very little about the subject, and I personally think there is a very good reason for that, but since I chose to drop the logic for the moment, I won't comment.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Logic dictates so many things here that you refuse to see. IOW if logic works in your favor, you claim it important, but if it doesn't you ignore it. So probably best, to just drop the logic (something that cannot be proven beyond doubt on either end) altogether from both sides and go by what is absolute fact and what is not.

It is a fact the Bible does not agree with what you claim suicide is, as in the "self murder". As a matter of fact also, the bible says very little about the subject, and I personally think there is a very good reason for that, but since I chose to drop the logic for the moment, I won't comment.

Do you believe Judas was saved?
How about Saul?

 

[A_Thinker]

Sin is not like marks of chalk and only after we confess they are erased, if it were so it would mean we only need God when we sin but so long as we don't sin we don't need God. Such a idea is counter-gospel and the fact remains we need God and his saving grace as much as we do after we repent than we do before we repent.

The purpose of grace is not a golden ticket to heaven, it is the needed component for us to have restored relationship with God and it is given in perpetuity provided we called his children. The act of sin is not more powerful than the act of grace but in the end God is the giver not us so it is up to him to judge the fine lines.

Suicide is against the desires of God so is against God himself and it should never be considered a way out nor should we approach circumstances in life by forcing the hand of God. However blanket statements saying it is a one way ticket to hell seems to force the hand of God to the other direction. God is still in control of his hands and he will have authority of how grace is released regardless what we do.

I agree ...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don't agree with what you seem to be saying about the character of God, and there ARE verses to show us that.



I never mentioned OSAS and this thread is not about that.
Neither did I mention Matthew 13:31 - you may be mixing me up with someone else.



1 John 3:15 doesn't mention suicide, and neither it, nor Scripture, address mental illness.

Psalm 34:17-20 (ESV) says,
When the righteous cry for help, the Lord hears and delivers them out of all their troubles. The Lord is near to the brokenhearted and saves the crushed in spirit. Many are the afflictions of the righteous, but the Lord delivers him out of them all. He keeps all his bones; not one of them is broken.

 

[Pneuma3]

It doesn't have to. Logic dictates that the taking of life (without God's approval) is murder. The taking of one's own life would be self murder. That is how it was understood before the 18th century.

LOL I guess this guy really did not murder his kid because God told him to murder his kid.

https://nypost.com/2018/02/01/man-who-said-god-told-him-to-kill-his-daughter-indicted/

 

[twin.spin]

So you believe babies who die are unsaved and that believing suicide victims are saved? Wow. All I can is.... wow.

1) God's Word teaches which refutes your statement "A baby is blameless if it dies because they do not know about right or wrong yet.."

Romans 3:23
Ecclesiastes 7:20
Psalm 53: 2-3
Romans 3:19
John 3:6
Romans 5:12,18a
Ephesians 2:1-3​

2) God's Word teaches that there are only six recorded cases of suicide in the Bible:

Abimelech (Judges 9:52-54)
Saul (1 Samuel 31:4)
Saul's armor-bearer (1 Samuel 31:5)
Ahithophel (2 Samuel 17:23)
Zimri (1 Kings 16:15-20)
Judas Iscariot (Matthew 27:3-5)​

and in each instance they acted out of despair and unbelief which forfeited any hope of heaven.

3) God's Word teaches ultimately what sends the individual to hell is unbelief (John 3:36),

not any particular sin per se. ​

4) Though the examples of suicide mentioned in the Bible are all negative, this does not mean that every person who takes his or her own life is eternally lost. Perhaps a person is suffering from a psychological disorder. Like other organs and parts of the body, the brain can also malfunction. Or perhaps someone in a moment of emotion crisis acts rashly and takes his or her own life. We cannot say in each of these cases that the person acted in unbelief.

 

[Strong in Him]

Psalm 34:17-20 (ESV) says,
When the righteous cry for help, the Lord hears and delivers them out of all their troubles. The Lord is near to the brokenhearted and saves the crushed in spirit. Many are the afflictions of the righteous, but the Lord delivers him out of them all. He keeps all his bones; not one of them is broken.

I know it does.
But still the fact is that Christians can get depression - and those who are mentally ill, schizophrenic and depressed can become Christians.
Christians can get terminal cancer, suffer a shocking bereavement, get into debt, be tempted by the world and lusts of the flesh, and then maybe make decisions when they are not of sound mind, or mistakenly believe that they have blown it with God, so they might as well be dead.

God sometimes delivers us from our illnesses and troubles, and sometimes doesn't but shows us that he is with us IN them.
I've read where the late evangelist, David Watson, wrote about his struggle with depression. I've read testimonies form others who went through similar things. The temptation to end their lives was there; they didn't, but someone else could do.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Do you believe Judas was saved?
How about Saul?

Why do you ask? I mean there are many different reasons for suicide, and it's not all because they are upset with themselves. Also, if Judas was so upset with himself he committed suicide, I'd say he was darned sorry for his sin so it would seem to me that is about at repentant/sorry as one can get.....