Sufficient vs Necessary

[Skala]

Vain philosophies of men much?

So, do you view your Savior, Jesus Christ as merely necessary, or do you view him as sufficient?

I await your answer.

 

[cygnusx1]

Because all are born dead in sins. That means separated from God. The reconciliation was toward God, accomplished by Christ. Man still needs to be reconciled, which Paul noted in 2 Cor 5:20.

Are you aware that both parties are involved in a reconciliation? If only 1 party extends a hand in a reconciliatory handshake, reconciliation has not taken place. Both parties must shake. God has extended His hand in reconciliation towards man because of what Christ did; pay for the sins of mankind. But man must "extend his hand" through faith in Christ.


No.


The Bible says that Christ reconciled the world to God. So of course those in hell were reconciled to God through Christ. But the FACT that they are in hell demonstrates that they didn't "extend their hand" to God via faith in Christ.

iow, they didn't take Paul's advice in 2 Cor 5:20- Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

I don't see any reconciled except those who will be reconciled , for if the reconciliation of God is permanent toward men then there is no ground left for any condemnation , the fact men are in hell proves that God was not reconciled to them , for He certainly still held much against them .

A guy who cancels a huge debt cannot at the same time command "go get the debt collectors in " !

 

[janxharris]

...
Calvinists believe God is responsible for us coming to faith (ie, he gives us our faith)

The angels celebrate in heaven because God effects belief in a man such that no alternate is allowed or possible?

Luke 15:7
I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

There can be no such celebration under the poster's theology where the outcome was certain because it was predetermined.

(Yes, I know this has come up before).

 

[janxharris]

That is where you are wrong, for faith itself is a product of grace. Surely you credit God for the fact that you are currently a believer? Surely you credit God for the fact that you have faith in Christ and are thus saved?

Or maybe I am mistaken and you credit yourself for those things? Maybe you can tell me.

The poster removes from all men the capacity to do the very thing God/Jesus asks of us.

The poster's words necessitate this repeated charge that it would make Jesus disingenuous.

 

[janxharris]

I figured that was already obvious. Care to link a true definition of the such?

Hi,
Just in case you are not aware - please read the emergency protocol:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7794118-8/

 

[janxharris]

In theology, we monergists like to say that Christ's atonement was sufficient to save people. That is, his death secured everything those people need to be ultimately saved: their regeneration, their faith, their repentance, etc. Everything a person needs to be saved is secured by Christ's life and death for them. That means that Christ's life and death (in monergism) is sufficient to result in salvation. Another way to say this is that if Christ died for a person, that person will, without fail, be saved. Thus, Christ is sufficient for salvation.

However, in synergism, this is not true. Christ can die for a person (in synergism), but yet that person might not be saved.

Piper is a monergist, and yet he tells unbelievers that Christ died for them. It seems that your statement:

However, in synergism, this is not true. Christ can die for a person (in synergism), but yet that person might not be saved.

is true of monergism too, depending on which monergist one speaks too.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It means much more than that. Why don't you care how Paul defined "dead in sins"?

Why the inaccurate judgement of what I care about?

Ephesians 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

See? it means much more than "separated from God", as you asserted.

yes, Paul noted the results of being separated from God. But to be dead in sins means to be separated from God.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Great! That means the answer is "no" that your faith is not God's work, thus your justification depends on you first and foremost. So glad we finally got to the bottom of this.

All that your posts ever get to is the bottom of error. My faith does NOT cause my justification, as you post wrongly insinuates.

Because my faith comes from my heart (Rom 10:9) doesn't mean it causes anything, which those in RT seem unable to grasp.

God has promised certain things. A promise obligates the Promiser, in this case God Himself. Agree or disagree so far? (This is how we'll "get to the bottom of this".)

 

[FreeGrace2]

Men don't hate lifeguards by nature. Analogy fail.

Best,

Griff

Neither do men, by nature. There are many highly religious people who love God, but have been deceived by Satan into false religions.

Opinion FAIL.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Part of his work is also "working in us to will and to act" Phil 2:13

But it seems like from our discussions, you deny this part. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I've ALWAYS corrected the errors that you make. Phil 2:13 is about believers, not in how one gets to be a believer. When we are filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:18) and walking by means of the Spirit (Gal 5:16) His will IS being done in us, by the power of the Spirit. BUT, WHEN the believer grieves (Eph 4:30) or quenches the Spirit (1 Thess 5:19), His will is NOT being done in us.

You deny that God works in us to will and to act.

Another correction of ERROR. See above for details.

In your view, God has nothing to do with how we will (our willingness, our desires, etc) nor how we act (our actions, our choices, etc)

Pure nonsense.

To you, all of those things are completely autonomous. [/QUOTR]
Wrong again. And corrected again.

Calvinists believe God is responsible for us coming to faith (ie, he gives us our faith)

He is responsible, but NOT by giving you your faith. There are NO verses that SAY what Rt claims. None at all. No reason to believe it.

He is responsible because He created mankind to seek Him, He created mankind with a conscience with which to know right from wrong, and He has revealed Himself to mankind so that no one has an excuse for not honoring Him and being thankful. That's HOW He is responsible.

You believe that we are responsible for us coming to faith (ie, He doesn't give us faith)

No one has any excuse for NOT coming to faith. And I've supported that with Scripture, unlike RT, which can't.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I don't see any reconciled except those who will be reconciled

Seems to be a circular statement. What does 2 Cor 5:19 SAY?

for if the reconciliation of God is permanent toward men then there is no ground left for any condemnation , the fact men are in hell proves that God was not reconciled to them , for He certainly still held much against them .

Where do you find that reconciliation means no condemnation? Paul said that Christ reconciled the word to the Father. And Jesus said that condemnation is based on unbelief in Jn 3:18. I'm not following your argument.

A guy who cancels a huge debt cannot at the same time command "go get the debt collectors in " !

Right. And neither does God. Seems you think people are in hell because of their sins. That would be incorrect. Rev 20:15 tells us why people are thrown into the lake of fire, the second death. Their names are NOT in the book of like. iow, they don't possess God's life, which is eternal life. How does one obtain eternal life? By faith.

The only result of sin for an unbeliever is just how "tolerable" it will be for them in the lake of fire.

 

[Goodbook]

Jesus is my saviour. Grace came by him, faith is in Him, it's all about him.
I'm just saying it is not by grace alone, but also conditioned on having faith in him. He is the author and finisher of our faith. Grace and faith go together. His grace and faithfulness allows us to be like him..gracious and faithful. I know grace alone does not save, because it is written, Without faith, it is impossible to please God.
Both qualities required for salvation originate from God.

So, that doesn't really fit the neat little categories of the first post, I mean I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here, that grace alone is what saves or the idea that just because faith is something we exercise it is the same thing is free will when it clearly isn't.

Also you seem to be saying Christs death is what saves, or his life and death no no no, I don't just believe in his death paying for my sins but in his resurrection as well. Because if Jesus is still dead then our faith in him is in vain. God raised him.

Whether this is necessary or sufficient i don't know as it doesn't seem to fit in your categories.

 

[cygnusx1]

Seems to be a circular statement. What does 2 Cor 5:19 SAY?


Where do you find that reconciliation means no condemnation? Paul said that Christ reconciled the word to the Father. And Jesus said that condemnation is based on unbelief in Jn 3:18. I'm not following your argument.


Right. And neither does God. Seems you think people are in hell because of their sins. That would be incorrect. Rev 20:15 tells us why people are thrown into the lake of fire, the second death. Their names are NOT in the book of like. iow, they don't possess God's life, which is eternal life. How does one obtain eternal life? By faith.

The only result of sin for an unbeliever is just how "tolerable" it will be for them in the lake of fire.

You ask where do I find reconciliation and. No condemnation , they are linked directly :

2 Cor 5


[19] To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation


And so God is both reconciled and angry with the wicked every day ? I don't think so .

And all those He is reconciled to are still condemned ? No , see above

I need saving from a "reconciliation " that leaves man condemned for it has saved no one

 

[guuila]

The poster removes from all men the capacity to do the very thing God/Jesus asks of us.

No sir. The fall of Adam did that. Remember?

Also, God expects us to be perfect, and condemns us if we aren't. I guess you'd have to conclude God is disingenuous for making such a demand since it is impossible.

 

[guuila]

All that your posts ever get to is the bottom of error. My faith does NOT cause my justification, as you post wrongly insinuates.

Because my faith comes from my heart (Rom 10:9) doesn't mean it causes anything, which those in RT seem unable to grasp.

God has promised certain things. A promise obligates the Promiser, in this case God Himself. Agree or disagree so far? (This is how we'll "get to the bottom of this".)

So your faith didn't cause your justification, even though justification is the necessary result of faith. Makes perfect sense.

 

[guuila]

Neither do men, by nature. There are many highly religious people who love God, but have been deceived by Satan into false religions.

Opinion FAIL.

Denying original sin again I see. Pelagianism fail. Also, a person in a false religion does not love the one true God. They love a false god.

But then again I'm not the one teaching that devil worshippers go to heaven... Have a good day buddy!

 

[janxharris]

No sir. The fall of Adam did that. Remember?

Also, God expects us to be perfect, and condemns us if we aren't. I guess you'd have to conclude God is disingenuous for making such a demand since it is impossible.

The fall did not prevent faith in God.

We become holy and blameless in Christ since He fulfilled the law. God's expectation of perfection is not unattainable and, therefore, is not disingenuous.

The difficulty for the Calvinist in preaching the gospel is demonstrated in the six minute gospel of John Piper. If you disagree with his use of "Christ died for your sins" (to unbelievers) then you have no real good news and therefore no real gospel.

Christ poured out his blood for Judas Iscariot - an incontrovertible fact.

 

[guuila]

The fall did not prevent faith in God.

Jesus disagrees with you. John 6:44.

We become holy and blameless in Christ since He fulfilled the law. God's expectation of perfection is not unattainable and, therefore, is not disingenuous.

Jesus told the woman caught in adultery to "go and sin no more". Could she become sinless? Or was he being disingenuous?

The difficulty for the Calvinist in preaching the gospel is demonstrated in the six minute gospel of John Piper. If you disagree with his use of "Christ died for your sins" (to unbelievers) then you have no real good news and therefore no real gospel.

Christ poured out his blood for Judas Iscariot - an incontrovertible fact.

Well, too bad for John Piper. I don't give a rip what he said. Don't try resurrecting that old red herring of yours... It's been thoroughly refuted.

 

[shturt678s]

Post deleted by me.

 

[guuila]

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