Sufficient vs Necessary

[guuila]

I'm sure Janx will have a good response, but I'll take the opportunity to say that I credit God for revealing Himself to me. He didn't have to. And He gets all credit because it's all His plan. Accepting His plan provides no credit for me.

I cannot figure out why RT thinks that non-calvinists take credit for their salvation. Do you really know any non-calvinist who makes such a ridiculous claim?

Answered a question you weren't asked, again. Nobody asked who you credit for God revealing himself.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The Bible says that faith is a gift, in many places.

If so, how about quoting a few of them?

And it also says that all good things are gifts from above.

I await the verses you claim exist.

And it also says that God gives everything to the person that Christ dies for.

What does "everything" mean to you?

You deny each of these points.

Yes, I certainly deny any claim that can't be supported from Scripture. Which is why I'm not a Calvinist.

Not sure why.

I just said why.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Is it a valid excuse?

Those who don't see the issue don't think so. But it exists. Election per Calvinism provides an excuse for those in hell. They simply weren't chosen.

Can you refute that? What is the difference between those going to heaven and those going to hell? It sure can't be sin because both are sinners.

So, what is it? The ONLY difference is who was chosen for heaven. Period. An excuse for those in hell.

But why should that bother RT? Why do those from RT keep trying to distance themselves from that charge? Why don't they embrace the fact that the ONLY reason they go to heaven is because they were chosen for it?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I meant John 17:6-12 - read it and what I said will make more sense.

Jesus prayed for His disciples. What is the point you'd like to make about it?

And you ignored my comment here:
Yes, no one deserves to go to heaven, yet the chosen do go there. While other sinners who don't deserve to go to heaven don't go there. Calvinism therefore provides an excuse for those who go to hell: they simply weren't chosen to go to heaven, since no one deserves to go there, and the only ones who get there were chosen for it, while the others were passed over or chosen for hell.

If being chosen isn't the ONLY difference between those going to hell or heaven, what else makes the difference?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Answered a question you weren't asked, again. Nobody asked who you credit for God revealing himself.

That's ok. This is an open forum. It's for communicating one's views to others. Since my views seem to continually be misunderstood/misrepresented, I took the opportunity to clarify my position.

Is that a problem?

 

[AndOne]

Jesus prayed for His disciples. What is the point you'd like to make about it?

the point you don't want to acknowledge apparently.

And you ignored my comment here:
Yes, no one deserves to go to heaven, yet the chosen do go there. While other sinners who don't deserve to go to heaven don't go there. Calvinism therefore provides an excuse for those who go to hell: they simply weren't chosen to go to heaven, since no one deserves to go there, and the only ones who get there were chosen for it, while the others were passed over or chosen for hell.

People in hell don't need an excuse to be there so this appears to be a misunderstanding of Calvinism

If being chosen isn't the ONLY difference between those going to hell or heaven, what else makes the difference?

GRACE

 

[guuila]

Those who don't see the issue don't think so. But it exists. Election per Calvinism provides an excuse for those in hell. They simply weren't chosen.

Can you refute that? What is the difference between those going to heaven and those going to hell? It sure can't be sin because both are sinners.

So, what is it? The ONLY difference is who was chosen for heaven. Period. An excuse for those in hell.

But why should that bother RT? Why do those from RT keep trying to distance themselves from that charge? Why don't they embrace the fact that the ONLY reason they go to heaven is because they were chosen for it?

You didn't answer my question. Do you believe it's a valid excuse?

 

[guuila]

That's ok. This is an open forum. It's for communicating one's views to others. Since my views seem to continually be misunderstood/misrepresented, I took the opportunity to clarify my position.

Is that a problem?

The problem isn't that you answered a question that was asked to someone else. The problem is that you changed the question and then provided an answer (like usual). Nobody was ever asked, "Who do you credit for God revealing himself to you?" which is the question you answered. Sneaky man... But we know your tricks.

 

[Hammster]

So do I.


#1 Yes, you need to accept the gift.

If one must accept the gift, then grace alone isn't sufficient, it's necessary.

 

[Skala]

If so, how about quoting a few of them?

I LOVE quoting the bible!

Eph 2: faith is a gift
Phil 1:29 faith is a gift
Rom 12:3 faith is a gift
1 John 5:1 faith is the result of the new birth
Rom 8 God gives all spiritual blessings to the person Christ dies for

I await the verses you claim exist.

Your wait is over!

What does "everything" mean to you?

When I'm in a chinese buffet restaurant, and I say "I want some of everything", I don't' mean that I want some of every single material in the universe.

 

[janxharris]

I LOVE quoting the bible!

Eph 2: faith is a gift

Ephesians 2:8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

Paul clearly states that one is not saved by works; one does not get to heaven by fulfilling the law for that would indeed be a reason for boasting. So Paul contrast the two possibilities of salvation:

a) God's grace that is gifted to the man
b) Man's works of righteousness to fulfill the law

We know b) is out - Romans 3:23, Galatians 3:11

For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith."

Paul clarifies what he means by, 'and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God,' by the clause that follows: 'not by works...'

Paul carefully distinguishes between faith and work.

 

[janxharris]

I LOVE quoting the bible!

Phil 1:29 faith is a gift

For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him,

It is possible that Paul is making reference to the fact that (Philippi being primarily gentile) gentiles and not just Jews are included in the provision of grace.

 

[janxharris]

I LOVE quoting the bible!

Rom 12:3 faith is a gift

I think that, in context, Paul is talking about the different gifts God gives to his followers.

 

[janxharris]

I LOVE quoting the bible!


1 John 5:1 faith is the result of the new birth

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.

Not sure that any order is discernable here.

 

[janxharris]

I LOVE quoting the bible!


Rom 8 God gives all spiritual blessings to the person Christ dies for

?

 

[Goodbook]

I am saved by grace. Through faith. Don't know about the alone part. The gospel is necessary, I would say.

I do believe the responding or receiving in faith is the part I do, God doesn't do that for me. that's why its a relationship. its not one sided. He loves me, so I can love him back. He did this through Jesus. I don't believe I could have gone on any longer on the path i was on without him in my life, because only he has the truth. I called on him, he answered. His plan was for a holy people from the foundation of the world, I responded to that plan. He wants to transform my character and adopt me into his heavenly kingdom. I have a long way to go, but I know whom I believe. And that same destiny is available to whoever hears and believes the gospel. Anyone. Jesus saved me from my sins. I don't have to thank him for making me a believer, I thank him for giving me hope of eternal life when I first believed.

Your testimony sounds like you believe God picked you specifically for no reason, predetermined your salvation. mean I don't disagree that God can do whatever He likes but I'm sure he had reason rather than just to make up the numbers for his kingdom. Who knows, it could be random. I just don't understand how you could be unwilling, as well. IN my experience, God never forced me to believe. Surely he was showing his mercy on you, but then how did you actually come to know the truth? What is the nature of your relationship? If you were individually elected before the world began, at what point did you know this? MY view is this doesn't bring glory to God, it just makes out you won a divine lottery. Lucky you. You dont have to do a thing. You thank God you are a believer or that you have a belief system? Salvation is random? Equally, is condemnation is random? Then what is the point of judgement day? Good and evil don't matter?
Of course no sane person would believe this, but you credit this God with grace to make you believe, according to you, he controls even your belief.

 

[FreeGrace2]

the point you don't want to acknowledge apparently.

Please don't be coy. What is the point that you would like me to deal with?

People in hell don't need an excuse to be there so this appears to be a misunderstanding of Calvinism

Maybe your view is a misunderstanding.

Please explain the difference between the SINNERS going to heaven and the sinners going to hell.

GRACE

Or, more accurately, "sovereign" grace, right? And isn't that mostly a code word for the RT view of election, that God arbitrarily chooses some for heaven?

I say "arbitrarily" because RT cannot provide any kind of reason WHY God chooses those He chooses. Yet the Bible is clear about WHY He chooses. He chooses to save believers. That is WHY. It's no mystery at all.

Whether people in hell "need" an excuse or not is not the point here. RT GIVES them an excuse because THEY WEREN'T CHOSEN.

And your answer "grace" does acknowledge that, sort of. Adding "sovereign" would have been more truthful.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You didn't answer my question. Do you believe it's a valid excuse?

I believe my response did answer your question, but since you don't think it did, I'll re-phrase my response. There are NO excuses for those in hell, per the Bible. Rom 1:20 says so.

But, the issue was that the RT view of election GIVES those in hell an excuse, because they weren't CHOSEN.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The problem isn't that you answered a question that was asked to someone else. The problem is that you changed the question and then provided an answer (like usual). Nobody was ever asked, "Who do you credit for God revealing himself to you?" which is the question you answered. Sneaky man... But we know your tricks.

How was that sneaky. You've acknowledged the change. Sneaky is when people don't see the change.

However, I changed the question to reflect reality, which the original question didn't. Just trying to keep things real here.

 

[FreeGrace2]

If one must accept the gift, then grace alone isn't sufficient, it's necessary.

When did I ever claim that grace isn't necessary? Please provide a direct quote or post #, or stop insinuating what I don't believe or claim. Thank you.