Sufficiency of Imputed Righteousness

[hedrick]

I'm a sinner, and I'd like to one day enter heaven. But heaven cannot contain sin, therefore if I am to enter heaven, I am to be without sin.

I don't think imputed righteousness is about this. Pretty much everyone agrees that we will have to be purified when we enter eternal life. Catholics have purgatory, Protestants tend to assume it's instant. Paul's description is 1 Cor 3:12. But justification seems to be about our Christian life in this world.

First, I don't distinguish between imputed righteousness and justification by faith, since Paul says that faith is imputed to us as righteousness. I see two main points to justification by faith:

* There's no special action we have to do to be considered God's. Paul's opponents thought we had to be circumcized. Today some require a specific born-again experience, or baptism. Justification by faith says that everyone who trusts Christ for salvation is his. No one can add additional requirements. (I think baptism is an important means of grace, by the way.)

* Christ won't give up on us, even if we sin, or go through difficult periods. Christians disagree whether it's possible to fall away, but if it is possible, it's only by a permanent rejection of the faith, and the door is always open.

 

[redleghunter]

"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God". I doubt that we even want to see God, or are capable of it, to the extent that we're still distracted by lesser, created things, to the extent that we're still attracted to sin, to the extent that we don't yet place Him first above all else.

Yes terrifying.

Yet:

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 4 - World English Bible

 

[PeaceByJesus]

I need help in clarifying justification as Protestants account for it.

I'm a sinner, and I'd like to one day enter heaven. But heaven cannot contain sin, therefore if I am to enter heaven, I am to be without sin.

How then will imputed righteousness be sufficient in allowing me to enter heaven? It seems I would need to be actually internally changed, or infused with Christ's righteousness if I'm even to last one moment in Heaven.

Please stay on topic. I know questioning forensic justification leads to Catholicism, but I'd really like to just understand who Christians are able to enter heaven with imputed righteousness alone. All popery and anti-Catholic replies should be ignored and avoided.

Since it is you who postulated Catholic theology, in which the system of salvation begins with one being made formally justified by his own ("infused") righteousness, and thus made good enough to be with God, and thus usually ends with once again being made good enough to enter Heaven, then it is fitting that Catholicism is mentioned.

As for how Christians are able to enter heaven with imputed righteousness alone, they do not, since now one can have imputed righteousness except by salvific faith, which is penitent and results in the heart being purified in the washing of regeneration, and which effects obedience by the Spirit.

Thus the redeemed are not simply "white-washed sinners" as "Catholic Answers" type propagandists describe it, but the key aspect here is that the works of effectual faith is not the basis for one''s acceptance by God. If it were then you could not presently be accepted in the Beloved and seated with Him in Heaven,(Ephesians 1:6; 2:6) and would lose that if anything defiling was found in you, which your flesh is, and if your character has sinful defects.

However, holiness is a necessary fruit of faith, which means in Scripture in the overall sense, with repentance when convicted of not being faithful, but not that believers never sin, much less are as good as Christ in character.

In short, it is because faith is counted for righteousness that you presently have access with boldness into the holy of holies, (Hebrews 10:19) and if you died in that faith or if the Lord returned then you would go to forever be with the Lord, as 1 Thessalonians 4:17 promises, because of Him "that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, (Revelation 1:5) Thanks be to God.

Below is an extended explanation i hope will help.

As far as what appropriates justification, one is only saved by grace thru faith, which purifies the heart (Acts 15:9) and is counted for righteousness (Romans 4:5) and renders one accepted in the Beloved (on His account) and positionally seated together which their Lord in Heaven, (Ephesians 1:6; 2:6) from where they await the Lord's return and His changing of our "vile body," that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body." (Philippians 3:21)

However, this saving justifying faith, is a faith which effects obedience by the Spirit in word and in deed, in heart and in life, whereby "the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit, (Romans 8:4) insofar as we do. And which obedience includes Godly sorrow, penitent confession of sin that the believer is convicted of.

The appeal to the believer is to produce fruit consistent with faith, as a consequence of being accepted in the Beloved (on His account), to be practically (in heart and deed) as they are positionally in Christ, to be as much conformed to the Lord Jesus in this life as we can be, and will be in the resurrection. (Philippians 3:7-21)

If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. (Galatians 5:25)

If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. (Colossians 3:1-4)

But which progressive practical sanctification is not the cause of the sinner's justification and acceptance in Christ, but testifies to such being a believer, evidencing "things which accompany salvation," (Hebrews 6:9) and fit to be rewarded. (Revelation 3:4) For this faith, as manifested in said obedience, God will recompense (Hebrews 10:35) under grace, even though it is God who motivates and enables all obedience, (Philippians 1:12,13) while the only thing we can and must take credit for it our disobedience.

In contrast to this salvation by effectual faith, evidencing meritorious works but which are not the cause of justification (though they justify one as being a believer, since they go together like light and heat), is salvation by grace thru works, as in Roman Catholicism, in which by grace one is actually made good enough to be with God via the act of baptism, even without the required personal wholehearted repentant faith. (Acts 8:38; 8:36,37)

However, since the carnal nature remains and few successfully attain to complete victory over any attachment to sin and perfection of character, then most baptized souls are sent to Roman Catholic (EOs trend to reject Rome's) Purgatory to endure purifying torments to atone for sins they sufficiently failed to provide for while on earth, and become good enough to enter glory.

There is some wiggle room as regards the conditions of purgatory since they are not dogmatic, but while salvation by grace thru faith as in sola fide means it is effectual faith being imputed for righteousness that justifies, salvation by grace thru works means that by grace one is actually made good enough to be with God, which premise either requires perfection of character in this life (and which merely being made clean in baptism would actually not effect) or postmortem purifying torments.

However, wherever Scripture clearly speak of the next conscious reality for believers then it is with the Lord, (Lk. 23:43 [cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7]; Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; 1Cor. 15:51ff'; 1Thess. 4:17) Note in the latter case all believers were assured that if the Lord returned, which they expected in their lifetime, so would they “ever be with the Lord,” though they were still undergoing growth in grace, as was Paul. (Phil. 3:10f)

And the next transformative experience that is manifestly taught is that of being like Christ in the resurrection. (1Jn. 3:2; Rm. 8:23; 1Co 15:53,54; 2Co. 2-4) At which time is the judgment seat of Christ, which is the only suffering mentioned after this life for the believer, which does not begin at death, but awaits the Lord's return, (1 Corinthians 4:5; 2 Timothy 4:1,8; Revelation 11:18; Matthew 25:31-46; 1 Peter 1:7; 5:4) and is the suffering of the loss of rewards (and the Lord's grievous displeasure) due to the manner of material one built the church with, which one is saved despite the loss of such, not because of. (1 Corinthians 3:8ff)

 

[redleghunter]

I think we can safely say Luther's doctrine wasn't born out of a pastoral concern. It was a product of the troubled inner life Luther experienced and the Church abuses of the day.

Even so, what the Reformation has led to is me, a man who grew up as a strong Christian, yet only learned of what a sacrament was this year. That is a tragedy. Since I've been on my way to Rome, I've had more confidence in Christ because I know His sacraments are efficacious. Faith alone never gives true assurance. There's always doubt that you weren't believing hard enough because you didn't have an emotional experience. I resent those days where I could never know for sure if Christ saved me. Now I know through the sacraments that He has.

So the sacraments themselves, the tangible material gives you more assurance?

 

[redleghunter]

Roman Catholics interpret this as maintaining good works to retain our salvation, and that a hope for salvation replaces the Calvinist's assurance of salvation.

Which goes beyond Arminianism and enters at least semi-Pelagianism.

Galatians 5:4 comes to mind.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

"What do you think being a new creature in Christ, born of God means?"
I think it means what the Catholics have been teaching. His righteousness is infused into us. I can't possibly see how the alien righteousness of Christ alone will make us a new creature under Protestant forensic justification.

You are protesting against something you evidently have little understanding of, and which seems to have come from Catholic apologists.

Historical Protestant justification is not divorced from regeneration, and in fact Calvinists believe it actually precedes justification by imputed righteousness, but while regeneration makes the person a new creation not only in God's sight, but in basic profound changes in heart and life, yet the effects of regeneration do not make a person good enough in character to be with God.

The contrite criminal went to be with the Lord on the day of His death, but had he lived, i am sure he would have quickly realized how sinful her really was by nature, that in him, that is his flesh, "dwelleth no good thing." (Romans 7:1) And which can never be reformed, but ignoring it, then insofar as we walk in the Spirit we can fulfil the righteousness of the Law, (Romans 8:4) as only Christ always did, while in many things we trespass. (James 3:2)

Thus our acceptance in the Beloved and entrance into glory is on Christ's account, yet with our works by the Spirit justifying us as being believers, and which the Lord rewards, though both the ability and motivation to do such is of God.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

I think we can safely say Luther's doctrine wasn't born out of a pastoral concern. It was a product of the troubled inner life Luther experienced and the Church abuses of the day.

Even so, what the Reformation has led to is me, a man who grew up as a strong Christian, yet only learned of what a sacrament was this year. That is a tragedy. Since I've been on my way to Rome, I've had more confidence in Christ because I know His sacraments are efficacious. Faith alone never gives true assurance. There's always doubt that you weren't believing hard enough because you didn't have an emotional experience. I resent those days where I could never know for sure if Christ saved me. Now I know through the sacraments that He has.

That is an absurd assertion, with you presenting experience as negating the testimony of thousands of hymns alone testifying to what faith resulted in, and with multitudes of former RCs, including faithful ones like myself, who realized just the opposite of what you attest to, with regeneration by penitential personal faith resulting in profound basic changes in heart and life, in contrast to dead ritualism.

I even remained a weekly mass-going RC for 6 years after i was born again, during which i served as CCD teacher and lector for some time (2 of my uncles were priests), and can weell attest to the stark changes btwn Catholic and evangelical life-giving faith.

Yes, we can have doubt as to whether we are truly walking in the faith, which we are to examine ourselves for, (2Cor. 13:5) but there is no doubt that faith saves, a faith that worketh by love.

And if you are gong to claim to be walking in the faith of the NT church, you need to do so in the light of the only wholly inspired record of what the NT church believed (including how they understood the gospels). In which Catholic distinctives are not what is manifest, for the NT church,

• 1. Was not based upon the premise of ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility of office as per Rome, which has presumed to infallibly declare that she is and will perpetually be infallible whenever she speaks in accordance with her infallibly defined (scope and subject-based) formula, which renders her declaration that she is infallible, to be infallible, as well as all else she accordingly declares.
• 2. Never promised or taught ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility was essential for preservation of truth, including writings to be discerned and established as Scripture, and for assurance of faith, and that historical descent as the stewards of Scripture means that such possessed ensured infallibility.
• 3. Never was a church that manifested the Lord's supper as being the central means of grace, around which all else revolved, it being the source and summit of the Christian faith in which the work of our redemption is accomplished, by which one received spiritual life in themselves by consuming human flesh, so that without which eating one cannot have eternal life (as per RC literalism, of Jn. 6:53,54). In contrast to believing the gospel by which one is regenerated, (Acts 10:43-47; 15:7-9; Eph. 1:13) and desiring the milk (1Pt. 2:2) and then the strong meat (Heb. 5:12-14) of the word of God, being nourished (1Tim. 4:6) by hearing the word of God and letting it dwell in them, (Col. 3:16) by which word (Scriptures) man is to live by, (Mt. 4:4) as Christ lived by the Father, (Jn. 6:57) doing His will being His meat. (Jn. 4:34) And with the Lord's supper, which is only manifestly described once in the life of the church, focusing on the church being the body of Christ in showing the Lord sacrificial death by that communal meal.
• 4. Never had any pastors titled "priests" as they did not engage in any unique sacrificial function, that of turning bread into human flesh and dispensing it to the people, or even dispensing bread as their primary ordained function, versus preaching the word. (2Tim. 4:2)
• 5. Never differentiated between bishops and elders, and with grand titles ("Most Reverend Eminence," Very Reverend, Most Illustrious and Most Reverend Lord, His Eminence Cardinal, The Most Reverend the Archbishop, etc.) or made themselves distinct by their ostentatious pompous garb. (Matthew 23:5-7) Or were all to be formally called father as that would require them to be spiritual fathers to all (Mt. 23:8-10 is a form of hyperbole, reproving the love of titles such as Catholicism examples, and thinking of men above that which is written, and instead the Lord emphasizes the One Father of all who are born of the Spirit, whom He Himself worked to glorify).
• 6. Never required clerical celibacy as the norm, (1Tim. 3:17) which presumes all such have that gift, (1Cor. 7:7) or otherwise manifested that celibacy was the norm among apostles and pastors, or had vowed to be so. (1Cor. 9:4; Titus 1:5,6)
• 7. Never taught that Peter was the "rock" of Mt. 16:18 upon which the church is built, interpreting Mt. 16:18, rather than upon the rock of the faith confessed by Peter, thus Christ Himself. (For in contrast to Peter, that the LORD Jesus is the Rock ( petra ) or "stone" ( lithos, and which denotes a large rock in Mk. 16:4) upon which the church is built is one of the most abundantly confirmed doctrines in the Bible (petra: Rm. 9:33; 1Cor. 10:4; 1Pet. 2:8; cf. Lk. 6:48; 1Cor. 3:11; lithos: Mat. 21:42; Mk.12:10-11; Lk. 20:17-18; Act. 4:11; Rm. 9:33; Eph. 2:20; cf. Dt. 32:4, Is. 28:16) including by Peter himself. (1Pt. 2:4-8) Rome's current catechism attempts to have Peter himself as the rock as well, but also affirms: On the rock of this faith confessed by St Peter, Christ build his Church, (pt. 1, sec. 2, cp. 2, para. 424) which understanding some of the so-called church fathers concur with.)
• 8. Never taught or exampled that all the churches were to look to Peter as the bishop of Rome, as the first of a line of supreme heads reigning over all the churches, and having the last word in questions affecting the whole Church.
• 9. Never recorded or taught any apostolic successors (like for James: Acts 12:1,2) after Judas who was to maintain the original 12: Rv. 21:14) or elected any apostolic successors by voting, versus casting lots (no politics). (Acts 1:15ff)
• 10. Never recorded or manifested (not by conjecture) sprinkling or baptism without repentant personal faith, that being the stated requirement for baptism. (Acts 2:38; 8:36-38)
• 11. Never preached a gospel of salvation which begins with becoming good enough inside (formally justified due to infused interior charity), via sprinkling (RC "baptism") in recognition of proxy faith, and which thus usually ends with becoming good enough again to enter Heaven via suffering in purgatory, commencing at death.
• 12. Never supported or made laws that restricted personal reading of Scripture by laity (contrary to Chrysostom), if able and available, sometimes even outlawing it when it was.
• 13. Never used the sword of men to deal with its theological dissenters.
• 14. Never taught that the deity Muslims worship (who is not as an "unknown god") is the same as theirs.
• 15. Never had a separate class of believers called saints.
• 16. Never prayed to anyone in Heaven but the Lord, or were instructed to (i.e. "our Mother who art in Heaven") who were able to hear and respond to virtually unlimited prayers addressed to them (a uniquely Divine attribute in Scripture).
• 17. Never recorded a women who never sinned, and was a perpetual virgin despite being married (contrary to the normal description of marriage, as in leaving and sexually cleaving) and who would be bodily assumed to Heaven and exalted (officially or with implicit sanction) such as,

• an "omnipotent" or almost almighty demigoddess to whom "Jesus owes His Precious Blood" to,
• whose [Mary] merits we are saved by,
• who "had to suffer, as He did, all the consequences of sin,"
• and was bodily assumed into Heaven, which is a fact (unsubstantiated in Scripture or even early Tradition) because the Roman church says it is, and "was elevated to a certain affinity with the Heavenly Father,"
• and whose power now "is all but unlimited,"
• for indeed she "seems to have the same power as God,"
• "surpassing in power all the angels and saints in Heaven,"
• so that "the Holy Spirit acts only by the Most Blessed Virgin, his Spouse."
• and that sometimes salvation is quicker if we remember Mary's name then if we invoked the name of the Lord Jesus,"
• "for indeed saints have "but one advocate," and that is Mary, who "alone art truly loving and solicitous for our salvation,"
• "Moreover, "there is no grace which Mary cannot dispose of as her own, which is not given to her for this purpose,"
• "and who has "authority over the angels and the blessed in heaven,"
• " including "assigning to saints the thrones made vacant by the apostate angels,"
• "whom the good angels "unceasingly call out to," greeting her "countless times each day with "Hail, Mary,' while prostrating themselves before her, begging her as a favour to honour them with one of her requests,"
• " and who (obviously) cannot "be honored to excess,"
• "and who is (obviously) the glory of Catholic people, whose "honor and dignity surpass the whole of creation." Sources and more.

May you get on the right track, by God's grace.

 

[Joseph Hinkle]

You are protesting against something you evidently have little understanding of, and which seems to have come from Catholic apologists.

Historical Protestant justification is not divorced from regeneration, and in fact Calvinists believe it actually precedes justification by imputed righteousness, but while regeneration makes the person a new creation not only in God's sight, but in basic profound changes in heart and life, yet the effects of regeneration do not make a person good enough in character to be with God.

The contrite criminal went to be with the Lord on the day of His death, but had he lived, i am sure he would have quickly realized how sinful her really was by nature, that in him, that is his flesh, "dwelleth no good thing." (Romans 7:1) And which can never be reformed, but ignoring it, then insofar as we walk in the Spirit we can fulfil the righteousness of the Law, (Romans 8:4) as only Christ always did, while in many things we trespass. (James 3:2)

Thus our acceptance in the Beloved and entrance into glory is on Christ's account, yet with our works by the Spirit justifying us as being believers, and which the Lord rewards, though both the ability and motivation to do such is of God.

"Historical Protestant justification is not divorced from regeneration, and in fact Calvinists believe it actually precedes justification by imputed righteousness, but while regeneration makes the person a new creation not only in God's sight, but in basic profound changes in heart and life, yet the effects of regeneration do not make a person good enough in character to be with God."

Sorry, you just don't know what you're talking about. Calvinists see regeneration as being a logically separate event from justification. If justification did regenerate you, we would be talking about infused grace...

 

[FireDragon76]

So the sacraments themselves, the tangible material gives you more assurance?

That's exactly how they work.

Catholics aren't really semi-Pelagian. Though to be honest, it seems like you need a masters of divinity to really grasp that distinction. It's not really easily preachable stuff, and usually results in a moralistic type of message in the hands of the average Catholic priest.

Many monks and nuns have a better grasp of how to explain their faith experientially, than priests necessarily do.

 

[redleghunter]

Calvinists see regeneration as being a logically separate event from justification. If justification did regenerate you, we would be talking about infused grace...

I think you confuse cause and effect.

 

[redleghunter]

Calvinists see regeneration as being a logically separate event from justification.

Explain please.

If justification did regenerate you, we would be talking about infused grace...

You are obviously not speaking of Monergism.

Frankly, I don't know what theology you are debating.

 

[Joseph Hinkle]

Explain please.



You are obviously not speaking of Monergism.

Frankly, I don't know what theology you are debating.

I don't know where you're getting confused.

In Calvinism, a person is totally depraved. God regenerates them, and this makes the person able to respond to the gospel. The regenerated person hears the gospel, and then is irresistibly drawn to faith. Regeneration proceeds faith.

Now that you see in Calvinism that regeneration and faith are separate events (though they occur concomitantly), and you know that in Protestantism faith alone justifies, it is obvious that regeneration does not justify under Calvinism.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

"Historical Protestant justification is not divorced from regeneration, and in fact Calvinists believe it actually precedes justification by imputed righteousness, but while regeneration makes the person a new creation not only in God's sight, but in basic profound changes in heart and life, yet the effects of regeneration do not make a person good enough in character to be with God."

Sorry, you just don't know what you're talking about. Calvinists see regeneration as being a logically separate event from justification. If justification did regenerate you, we would be talking about infused grace...

Yes, logically separate, but not divorced as a temporal event. As prominent Bible teacher and Calvinist John MacArthur said:

“From the standpoint of reason, regeneration logically must initiate faith and repentance. But the saving transaction is a single, instantaneous event.”...

Erickson and others, however, do oppose the Reformed ordo. Bruce Demarest, another moderate Calvinist, supports the opposite position that regeneration is initiated by faith, “God grants new spiritual life by virtue of the individual’s conscious decision to repent of sins and appropriate the provisions of Christ’s atonement.” Those who, like Erickson and Demarest, affirm this would even state that regeneration is entirely a work of God, and that man cannot, by nature, respond to the Gospel. Therefore, some initial, or preparatory, work of God is necessary to make man able to respond to the Gospel. Erickson and Demarest believe that this preparatory work is God’s effectual calling, not regeneration. In response to this calling, man initiates faith and conversion, and then he is regenerated.

Norman Geisler, in his book Chosen But Free, emphatically denounces the Reformed position stating, “As anyone familiar with Scripture can attest, verses allegedly supporting the contention that regeneration preceds faith are in short supply.” He then goes on, “It is the uniform pattern of Scripture to place faith logically prior to salvation as a condition for receiving it.” - Does Regeneration Precede Faith? - CredoHouse - Making Theology Accessible

I myself see God opening hearts and granting repentant faith before regeneration, (Acts 2:38; Ephesians 1:13) which is still salvation by grace thru faith.

Man could not and would not believe on the Lord Jesus or follow Him unless God gave him life, and breath, and all good things he has, (Acts 17:25) and convicted him, (Jn. 16:8) drew him, (Jn. 6:44; 12:32) opened his heart, (Acts 16:14) and granted repentance (Acts 11:18) and gave faith, (Eph. 2:8,9) which is accounted as righteousness, and then worked in him both to will and to do of His good pleasure the works He commands them to do. (Phil. 2:13; Eph. 2:10)

Thus man owes to God all things, (1 Chronicles 29:14; 1 Corinthians 4:7) and can not claim he actually deserves anything from God except damnation, for man is guilty and rightly damned for resisting God contrary to the level of grace given him, (Prov. 1:20-31; Lk. 10:13; 12:48; Rv. 20:11-15) yet under grace which denotes strictly unmerited favor, God has chosen to reward faith, (Heb. 10:35) in recognition of its effects, which obedience (again) God both enabled and motivated.

However, it remains that while faith is counted for righteousness, justification by faith does not leave man mere being a white-washed sinner, but as said, regeneration makes the person a new creation not only in God's sight, but in basic profound changes in heart and life, yet the effects of regeneration do not make a person good enough in character to be with God.

And if regeneration precedes justification this would also be true, yet the point is that regeneration cannot make one good enough in character to be accepted in the Beloved and positionally in Heaven and able to come into the holy of holies to meet with God, nor to be with Him at death or at the Lord's return, yet which is where the Spirit of Christ says they will be, as showed.

Thus, just as Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness, (Gn. 15:6) so are believers today, and which is the basis for their acceptance in Christ and home in Heaven, as was the case with the contrite criminal, though it hardly can be said such would have been good enough in nature to be with Jesus Christ the righteous.

As long as you believe, having Biblical saving faith that effects obedience by the Spirit and repentance when convicted of the contrary, (Hebrews 6:9; 2 Corinthians 7:9,10) then Scripture teaches that you are "in Christ" and have Heaven as your home. And because of this, and not in order to obtain it by becoming actually good enough, then you are called to live out practically what you are positionally, and look forward to being like Christ, who shall "change our vile body," when He returns.

If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: (Colossians 3:1-10)

For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (Philippians 3:20-21)

 

[redleghunter]

Now that you see in Calvinism that regeneration and faith are separate events (though they occur concomitantly), and you know that in Protestantism faith alone justifies, it is obvious that regeneration does not justify under Calvinism.

I think the confusion is you put a logical order in temporal space and time to conversion. When we should be looking at the causal order.

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) (Ephesians 2:4-5)

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. (John 6:63-65)

And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. (Acts 16:14)

You cannot have salvific faith without regeneration. Just as you would not have a complete world without the 6 days of creation.

For we hu-mans, it is nicely explained here:

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. (Ezekiel 36:26-27)

However, I think the best explanation of regeneration comes from Genesis:

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. (Genesis 1:3)

 

[PeaceByJesus]

"Historical Protestant justification is not divorced from regeneration, and in fact Calvinists believe it actually precedes justification by imputed righteousness, but while regeneration makes the person a new creation not only in God's sight, but in basic profound changes in heart and life, yet the effects of regeneration do not make a person good enough in character to be with God."

Sorry, you just don't know what you're talking about. Calvinists see regeneration as being a logically separate event from justification. If justification did regenerate you, we would be talking about infused grace...

An I think this may be helpful: John Davenant: The Formal Cause of Justification

 

[Joseph Hinkle]

Yes, logically separate, but not divorced as a temporal event. As prominent Bible teacher and Calvinist John MacArthur said:

“From the standpoint of reason, regeneration logically must initiate faith and repentance. But the saving transaction is a single, instantaneous event.”...

Erickson and others, however, do oppose the Reformed ordo. Bruce Demarest, another moderate Calvinist, supports the opposite position that regeneration is initiated by faith, “God grants new spiritual life by virtue of the individual’s conscious decision to repent of sins and appropriate the provisions of Christ’s atonement.” Those who, like Erickson and Demarest, affirm this would even state that regeneration is entirely a work of God, and that man cannot, by nature, respond to the Gospel. Therefore, some initial, or preparatory, work of God is necessary to make man able to respond to the Gospel. Erickson and Demarest believe that this preparatory work is God’s effectual calling, not regeneration. In response to this calling, man initiates faith and conversion, and then he is regenerated.

Norman Geisler, in his book Chosen But Free, emphatically denounces the Reformed position stating, “As anyone familiar with Scripture can attest, verses allegedly supporting the contention that regeneration preceds faith are in short supply.” He then goes on, “It is the uniform pattern of Scripture to place faith logically prior to salvation as a condition for receiving it.” - Does Regeneration Precede Faith? - CredoHouse - Making Theology Accessible

I myself see God opening hearts and granting repentant faith before regeneration, (Acts 2:38; Ephesians 1:13) which is still salvation by grace thru faith.

Man could not and would not believe on the Lord Jesus or follow Him unless God gave him life, and breath, and all good things he has, (Acts 17:25) and convicted him, (Jn. 16:8) drew him, (Jn. 6:44; 12:32) opened his heart, (Acts 16:14) and granted repentance (Acts 11:18) and gave faith, (Eph. 2:8,9) which is accounted as righteousness, and then worked in him both to will and to do of His good pleasure the works He commands them to do. (Phil. 2:13; Eph. 2:10)

Thus man owes to God all things, (1 Chronicles 29:14; 1 Corinthians 4:7) and can not claim he actually deserves anything from God except damnation, for man is guilty and rightly damned for resisting God contrary to the level of grace given him, (Prov. 1:20-31; Lk. 10:13; 12:48; Rv. 20:11-15) yet under grace which denotes strictly unmerited favor, God has chosen to reward faith, (Heb. 10:35) in recognition of its effects, which obedience (again) God both enabled and motivated.

However, it remains that while faith is counted for righteousness, justification by faith does not leave man mere being a white-washed sinner, but as said, regeneration makes the person a new creation not only in God's sight, but in basic profound changes in heart and life, yet the effects of regeneration do not make a person good enough in character to be with God.

And if regeneration precedes justification this would also be true, yet the point is that regeneration cannot make one good enough in character to be accepted in the Beloved and positionally in Heaven and able to come into the holy of holies to meet with God, nor to be with Him at death or at the Lord's return, yet which is where the Spirit of Christ says they will be, as showed.

Thus, just as Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness, (Gn. 15:6) so are believers today, and which is the basis for their acceptance in Christ and home in Heaven, as was the case with the contrite criminal, though it hardly can be said such would have been good enough in nature to be with Jesus Christ the righteous.

As long as you believe, having Biblical saving faith that effects obedience by the Spirit and repentance when convicted of the contrary, (Hebrews 6:9; 2 Corinthians 7:9,10) then Scripture teaches that you are "in Christ" and have Heaven as your home. And because of this, and not in order to obtain it by becoming actually good enough, then you are called to live out practically what you are positionally, and look forward to being like Christ, who shall "change our vile body," when He returns.

If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: (Colossians 3:1-10)

For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (Philippians 3:20-21)

Try writing your own responses instead of plagiarizing blogs. If I wanted to read a blog, I wouldn't be commenting on this forum.

 

[Joseph Hinkle]

I think the confusion is you put a logical order in temporal space and time to conversion. When we should be looking at the causal order.

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) (Ephesians 2:4-5)

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. (John 6:63-65)

And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. (Acts 16:14)

You cannot have salvific faith without regeneration. Just as you would not have a complete world without the 6 days of creation.

For we hu-mans, it is nicely explained here:

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. (Ezekiel 36:26-27)

However, I think the best explanation of regeneration comes from Genesis:

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. (Genesis 1:3)

"You cannot have salvific faith without regeneration. Just as you would not have a complete world without the 6 days of creation."

This is exactly why I feel regeneration should be included in our definition of justification.

 

[fhansen]

Yes terrifying.

Yet:

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 4 - World English Bible

And yet we also know from James 2 that Abraham was justified by his works. If we truly trust in God, we can trust that He will make us holy. "Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14

And that's the whole point of the New Testament: With God (with His indwelling) all things are possible, but apart from Him we can do nothing. And this communion, which itself constitutes man's justice, is established by faith in response to grace. This is the reversal of the Fall of man, within each of us, as we're willing. Certainly Abraham wasn't justified by his circumcision, but if he hadn't followed God's will by his actions, he wasn't justified either. Because we're either in a state of righteousness/justice, or we're not, and righteousness produces right acts.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

Try writing your own responses instead of plagiarizing blogs. If I wanted to read a blog, I wouldn't be commenting on this forum.

Dude, were weer debating what Calvinists believe, and thus rather than my own opinions, it is actually more proper to provide what Calvinists themselves say. And which was distinguished by being in brown text, and only constitutes less than half of what i provided in that post.

Moreover, this is not "plagiarizing" - taking he work or an idea of someone else and passing it off as one's own - but is substantiating why I said, with an accredited source.

In addition, I already provided a almost 1500 word post of mine own words on this page, which is just one example of multitudes of "writing your own responses," to which others can attest.

Maybe we should talk about how regeneration effects one's attitude.

 

[redleghunter]

And that's the whole point of the New Testament: With God (with His indwelling) all things are possible, but apart from Him we can do nothing. And this communion, which itself constitutes man's justice, is established by faith in response to grace.

A contradiction.

This is the reversal of the Fall of man, within each of us, as we're willing. Certainly Abraham wasn't justified by his circumcision, but if he hadn't followed God's will by his actions, he wasn't justified either

Paul is saying something much different:

Romans 4: World English Bible (WEB)
4 What then will we say that Abraham, our forefather, has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not toward God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”4 Now to him who works, the reward is not counted as grace, but as something owed. 5 But to him who doesn’t work, but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also pronounces blessing on the man to whom God counts righteousness apart from works,

7 “Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man whom the Lord will by no means charge with sin.”

I think what happens on these threads is a presupposition by Catholics that Protestants view faith as comatose.

What James invoked was the matter of dead faith meaning not saving faith. Faith implies faithfulness and as such is also according to Grace. Notice nothing we do we can boast. Meaning we cannot add the works of righteousness to our portfolio but only cast the crown at Christ's feet where the due credit is due (see Revelation 4:10).

Because we're either in a state of righteousness/justice, or we're not, and righteousness produces right acts.

Whose or whose righteousness do you speak of above?

In John 15:5 we are told we can do nothing without Christ.

Was it your point we have enough human goodness to respond to God's call to us? If so, the below refutes such a claim:

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)(Ephesians 2:4-5)

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. (John 6:63-65)

And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. (Acts 16:14)

You cannot have salvific faith without regeneration. Just as you would not have a complete world without the 6 days of creation.

For we hu-mans, it is nicely explained here:

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. (Ezekiel 36:26-27)

However, I think the best explanation of regeneration comes from Genesis:

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.(Genesis 1:3)