Joseph Hinkle

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I need help in clarifying justification as Protestants account for it.

I'm a sinner, and I'd like to one day enter heaven. But heaven cannot contain sin, therefore if I am to enter heaven, I am to be without sin.

How then will imputed righteousness be sufficient in allowing me to enter heaven? It seems I would need to be actually internally changed, or infused with Christ's righteousness if I'm even to last one moment in Heaven.

Please stay on topic. I know questioning forensic justification leads to Catholicism, but I'd really like to just understand who Christians are able to enter heaven with imputed righteousness alone. All popery and anti-Catholic replies should be ignored and avoided.
 

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I need help in clarifying justification as Protestants account for it.

I'm a sinner, and I'd like to one day enter heaven. But heaven cannot contain sin, therefore if I am to enter heaven, I am to be without sin.

How then will imputed righteousness be sufficient in allowing me to enter heaven? It seems I would need to be actually internally changed, or infused with Christ's righteousness if I'm even to last one moment in Heaven.

Please stay on topic. I know questioning forensic justification leads to Catholicism, but I'd really like to just understand who Christians are able to enter heaven with imputed righteousness alone. All popery and anti-Catholic replies should be ignored and avoided.
The point is how God sees the believer in Christ. (Romans 3.21-26)
 
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I need help in clarifying justification as Protestants account for it.

I'm a sinner, and I'd like to one day enter heaven. But heaven cannot contain sin, therefore if I am to enter heaven, I am to be without sin.

How then will imputed righteousness be sufficient in allowing me to enter heaven? It seems I would need to be actually internally changed, or infused with Christ's righteousness if I'm even to last one moment in Heaven.

Please stay on topic. I know questioning forensic justification leads to Catholicism, but I'd really like to just understand who Christians are able to enter heaven with imputed righteousness alone. All popery and anti-Catholic replies should be ignored and avoided.
What happened when you accepted Christ as Saviour, the act of taking your sin on the cross with Him became a reality for you. Jesus was totally righteous when He went to the cross, but He took the sinfulness, guilt, and punishment for sin for everyone who has and will embrace Him. This means that as far as God is concerned, all your sin, past present and future has been transferred to Christ, and His righteousness has been transferred to you. This means that God no longer sees you as a sinner, even a forgiven one. You are much more than that. You are now born of God, a new creation in Christ. This also means that because of the resurrection of Christ, you received eternal life as soon as you took Him as your Saviour. This means that when you die, you will go straight into the presence of the Lord. You won't receive a new after-life, because you already have eternal life right now.

When your body dies, you will leave the sinful shell behind and enter into glory as the person you really are. You live in your body with its shortcomings and failures. There will always be a conflict between the new life within you and the limitations of your body. But it will be your body shell that will fall away at death, but the real you with your new life will go into glory. When you stand before Christ in glory, there will be no sin in you. The last vestiges of that in your body will have been left behind to moulder in the grave.

At the last day, when the dead in Christ will arise, you will be raised in a glorified, sinless body, just like Jesus was raised the same way. He is the first-born of many brethren. Because He rose from the dead, so will you in the same way.

So, to summarise; you are already totally righteous in God's sight. The moment you received Christ, God took your sins and buried them in the deepest sea of His forgetfulness. Jesus is a complete Saviour, not a partial one, therefore your righteousness in Christ is total, complete. You have a new heart and your spirit is alive to God. It is your body that holds you back and makes you feel like you are still a sinner. Therefore you need to view yourself as born of God and totally righteous before Him.

The Scripture says, "I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me; and the life I live I live by the faith of the Son of God who loves me and gave Himself for me."
 
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FireDragon76

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Lutherans do not deny that there is regeneration internally as part of salvation. Imputed righteousness is real, but so is growth spiritually. But due to the fact that in this life we are sinners, trusting in our own righteousness is not a good basis for our assurance.

For one thing, I think the assumption that one must be perfectly sinless to enter heaven is more of Greek platonic thinking. Jesus was God incarnate, but was perfectly capable of being around sinners, and sinners did not die in his presence.

For another, even if we think in Greek categories of perfection and metaphysics, we can still trust that God will make good on the promise made to us in baptism, if we trust in him. It could very well be there is a process for purgation awaiting us between this life and the next. Sort of like how C.S. Lewis described Purgatory, as God's "boot room". For some time after Luther's break from Rome, he continued to believe in Purgatory as an opinion, though he denied much of the Roman doctrines concerning indulgences, of course.

In the end, I don't think it really matters that much from an evangelical perspective just how we get into heaven. Evangelical theology is about divine promises grasped through faith, not philosophical or theological speculation.
 
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DavidFirth

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I need help in clarifying justification as Protestants account for it.

I'm a sinner, and I'd like to one day enter heaven. But heaven cannot contain sin, therefore if I am to enter heaven, I am to be without sin.

How then will imputed righteousness be sufficient in allowing me to enter heaven? It seems I would need to be actually internally changed, or infused with Christ's righteousness if I'm even to last one moment in Heaven.

Please stay on topic. I know questioning forensic justification leads to Catholicism, but I'd really like to just understand who Christians are able to enter heaven with imputed righteousness alone. All popery and anti-Catholic replies should be ignored and avoided.

Read John, Acts and Romans. If you still have questions, come back and start another thread. Justification by faith is what Jesus Christ died for.
 
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fhansen

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I need help in clarifying justification as Protestants account for it.

I'm a sinner, and I'd like to one day enter heaven. But heaven cannot contain sin, therefore if I am to enter heaven, I am to be without sin.

How then will imputed righteousness be sufficient in allowing me to enter heaven? It seems I would need to be actually internally changed, or infused with Christ's righteousness if I'm even to last one moment in Heaven.

Please stay on topic. I know questioning forensic justification leads to Catholicism, but I'd really like to just understand who Christians are able to enter heaven with imputed righteousness alone. All popery and anti-Catholic replies should be ignored and avoided.
"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God". I doubt that we even want to see God, or are capable of it, to the extent that we're still distracted by lesser, created things, to the extent that we're still attracted to sin, to the extent that we don't yet place Him first above all else.
 
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St_Worm2

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I need help in clarifying justification as Protestants account for it.

I'm a sinner, and I'd like to one day enter heaven. But heaven cannot contain sin, therefore if I am to enter heaven, I am to be without sin.

How then will imputed righteousness be sufficient in allowing me to enter heaven? It seems I would need to be actually internally changed, or infused with Christ's righteousness if I'm even to last one moment in Heaven.

Please stay on topic. I know questioning forensic justification leads to Catholicism, but I'd really like to just understand who Christians are able to enter heaven with imputed righteousness alone. All popery and anti-Catholic replies should be ignored and avoided.
Hi Joseph, perhaps the better question should be, how can someone who sins ever be considered righteous again (apart from the imputed innocence and righteousness of Christ, that is)?

Yes, we Christians are "forgiven", but the very fact that we need to be forgiven means that we've sinned, which means that we can never again be considered 'inherently' righteous (IOW, righteous in and of ourselves). As St. James tells us plainly, even if we've only sinned once, we become guilty of all as a transgressor of the law. .. e.g. James 2:10-11.

We are sinners who are forgiven and considered righteous when we are justified, because the Father declares us so, just like He declares His Son to be sin for us .. 2 Corinthians 5:21.

Yours and His,
David

quote-my-hope-lives-not-because-i-am-not-a-sinner-but-because-i-am-a-sinner-for-whom-christ-charles-spurgeon-57-36-33.jpg
 
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Lutherans do not deny that there is regeneration internally as part of salvation. Imputed righteousness is real, but so is growth spiritually. But due to the fact that in this life we are sinners, trusting in our own righteousness is not a good basis for our assurance.

I hope you don't mind me putting my twopence worth in here. From what I see in Scripture, growth in grace is the process of being transformed in our minds to that of Christ. I have never seen a reference in the New Testament that speaks of spiritual growth. The expression seems a bit New Agey to me because it suggests personal growth to be a better person. What I see is that in God's view, we are as good as well ever can be through the righteousness of Christ. Christian maturity is the development of thinking so that we view ourselves in the same light that God does.

for one thing, I think the assumption that one must be perfectly sinless to enter heaven is more of Greek platonic thinking. Jesus was God incarnate, but was perfectly capable of being around sinners, and sinners did not die in his presence.

It is not that we must be sinless. It is because we are new creations in Christ, we are sinless in God's eyes. The sinful part of us dies with our physical bodies and we are resurrected in a glorified sinless body.

For another, even if we think in Greek categories of perfection and metaphysics, we can still trust that God will make good on the promise made to us in baptism, if we trust in him. It could very well be there is a process for purgation awaiting us between this life and the next. Sort of like how C.S. Lewis described Purgatory, as God's "boot room". For some time after Luther's break from Rome, he continued to believe in Purgatory as an opinion, though he denied much of the Roman doctrines concerning indulgences, of course.
There is nothing in the New Testament about a place called purgatory. People who are born of God don't need it. Jesus has already taken all their sin, past present and future when He died on the cross for them. To say that born again believers still need to be purged in some place for the sin is an insult to the body and blood of Christ.

In the end, I don't think it really matters that much from an evangelical perspective just how we get into heaven. Evangelical theology is about divine promises grasped through faith, not philosophical or theological speculation.
Agreed.
 
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I need help in clarifying justification as Protestants account for it.

I'm a sinner, and I'd like to one day enter heaven. But heaven cannot contain sin, therefore if I am to enter heaven, I am to be without sin.

How then will imputed righteousness be sufficient in allowing me to enter heaven? It seems I would need to be actually internally changed, or infused with Christ's righteousness if I'm even to last one moment in Heaven.

Please stay on topic. I know questioning forensic justification leads to Catholicism, but I'd really like to just understand who Christians are able to enter heaven with imputed righteousness alone. All popery and anti-Catholic replies should be ignored and avoided.
Sins are contained within that sin nature that is harboured in the flesh. When we're given a new heart connection to the Holy Spirit that which was corruptible has taken on the seed of the incorruptible that grows with experience in taking each thought captive to Christ. Thereby the mind (and consequently the soul) are grown to maturity. Mature plants are ready for the harvest that with the selfsame spirit as that in Christ dwelling within will lift us to have eventually bodily resurrection also. So all that we are will be all that He is minus the basic Godhead. Heavenly dwelling now is obtained when we go to Him where we are seated with Him, in praise and prayer, to receive guidance in daily living. Heavens itself being a bit of a mystery.
 
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FireDragon76

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Oscar, Lutherans deny sinless perfection. We are simul justus et peccator, righteous and sinful. People have a new desire for obedience, but at the same time they also have desires for disobedience, and that will not be completely conquered in this life.

The Lutheran anthropology is frankly more realistic than saying the Holy Spirit makes us sinless in this life. There's scores of churches that put religious leaders on pedestals because they believe they are "anointed". At the same time, we can look at a believer and tell them that just because they sin, it is not a reason to lose hope, that sin does not have to define their life.
 
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Oscar, Lutherans deny sinless perfection. We are simul justus et peccator, righteous and sinful. People have a new desire for obedience, but at the same time they also have desires for disobedience, and that will not be completely conquered in this life.

The Lutheran anthropology is frankly more realistic than saying the Holy Spirit makes us sinless in this life. There's scores of churches that put religious leaders on pedestals because they believe they are "anointed". At the same time, we can look at a believer and tell them that just because they sin, it is not a reason to lose hope, that sin does not have to define their life.
I don't believe in sinless perfection in this life. John in his letter shows that the person who says he has no sin lies about himself. If we look at ourselves from God's point of view, we are totally righteous in Christ. But if we look within ourselves, because of our shortcomings and failures, we see, like Paul, that "in me dwells no good thing." Progressive sanctification is the transformation of our minds to be more and more Christlike, and the development of the fruit of the Spirit in our earthly lives.

I have Martin Luther's commentary on Galatians, and it is a commentary that defines my faith in Christ and my standing before God.
 
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...Christian maturity is the development of thinking so that we view ourselves in the same light that God does.
...
This part is misguided advise because while we're in a body of sin we can never think too highly of ourselves because we are still of the fall. Just the thought of humility can be construed as another feather in the cap self-proclaimed.

Also even the very very immature should be aware of their standing in Grace.
 
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This part is misguided advise because while we're in a body of sin we can never think too highly of ourselves because we are still of the fall. Just the thought of humility can be construed as another feather in the cap self-proclaimed.
The Bible says that we should think of ourselves as we ought to think. Although there can be the "big wheel" type of pride, there is also the "worm" pride where some get off on appearing very humble to impress others of their humility before God. It is certainly not pride to acknowledge that we are born of God and are able to stand before God without shame, guilt or any sense of inferiority. It is thinking of ourselves as we ought to think, no more, no less.
 
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The Bible says that we should think of ourselves as we ought to think. Although there can be the "big wheel" type of pride, there is also the "worm" pride where some get off on appearing very humble to impress others of their humility before God. It is certainly not pride to acknowledge that we are born of God and are able to stand before God without shame, guilt or any sense of inferiority. It is thinking of ourselves as we ought to think, no more, no less.
Yes there is nothing to which we can boast except in things done by and thru Him. That is the only reason for boasting, not of ourselves. Know thyself in strengths and weakness is the definition of humility imo
 
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Yes there is nothing to which we can boast except in things done by and thru Him. That is the only reason for boasting, not of ourselves. Know thyself in strengths and weakness is the definition of humility imo
It seems to me that the majority of church-going people don't have a clear view of where they stand with Christ and so live their lives far below their potential in God. This is probably the reason why the Church in most areas has a minimal impact in their communities.
 
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Both you @Cassia and @Oscarr are right. Lutherans view this relationship as a dialectic rather than something that can be neatly resolved. It's not meant to have a resolution, the interplay between the two messages is part of what drives us as Christians and forms us into what God wants us to be, as we live a life shaped by the Word and Spirit.

This video is probably the clearest exposition I have heard about this dialectic in the Christian life, of course it's focused more on Julian of Norwich, as interpreted by a former Episcopalian monk, more than Luther. However, the themes are very similar, which is not surprising since both were shaped by the western medieval tradition:

ristians:
 
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It seems to me that the majority of church-going people don't have a clear view of where they stand with Christ and so live their lives far below their potential in God. This is probably the reason why the Church in most areas has a minimal impact in their communities.
In grace by which I stand is overshadowed in most churches that emphasis faith w/o grace. Galatians 4 should be the main focus of teaching but is rarely touched upon. If the shepards are not feeding the sheep the pendulum still should not swing to over emphasis (embellishing) truth.
 
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Joseph Hinkle

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Lots of responses. Thank you all.

I think it would be better to understand imputed righteousness as not doing anything at all. It's merely a useful promise. I mean, if I require a glorified body with infused righteousness to enter heaven, why would I call myself justified while here on earth? I'm a sinner. I'm not justified before God, but I one day will be when He transforms me into a completely righteous glorified creature.
 
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Lots of responses. Thank you all.

I think it would be better to understand imputed righteousness as not doing anything at all. It's merely a useful promise. I mean, if I require a glorified body with infused righteousness to enter heaven, why would I call myself justified while here on earth? I'm a sinner. I'm not justified before God, but I one day will be when He transforms me into a completely righteous glorified creature.
So you don't believe that you have received eternal life here and now? What do you think being a new creature in Christ, born of God means? Might that mean that you are more than just a forgiven sinner? What is your definition of Justification?
Are you going to hold to Roman Catholic theology and no one will know whether they will get to heaven or not and it will be decided on the balance of good or bad deeds when we stand before God?
 
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Lots of responses. Thank you all.

I think it would be better to understand imputed righteousness as not doing anything at all. It's merely a useful promise. I mean, if I require a glorified body with infused righteousness to enter heaven, why would I call myself justified while here on earth? I'm a sinner. I'm not justified before God, but I one day will be when He transforms me into a completely righteous glorified creature.

Evangelical theology traditionally is about hope in promises.

We usually do not think of righteousness as a moral quality but a status we have before God. You are either righteous, or you aren't. This notion of degrees of righteousness is more of a Catholic thing, like it's a moral or metaphysical quality. But we recognize it as a legal term, you are either guilty or you aren't.
 
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